2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

So it's like "Philosophy of Russian Ladies Thread"?

flanker said:

And posing for pictures with fans

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She's great at posing too.

What did Moir say about Alina? Did he say she was a jumping machine and that's it? He's only an ice dancer and they don't even leave the ice. Lol. That would be like a nursing assistant criticizing a doctor. Lol. Hmmm.

Scott512 said:

Orser takes made skaters and helps them. Eteri makes skaters. Big difference. Brian takes made skaters from other countries and helps them get even better. Give him credit for that and his long and distinguished coaching career. But he doesn't do what EG does. She has helped figure skating grow exponentially in Russia. Orser cannot say the same about his homeland.

And Anna and aliona are better than Rika who makes a lot more mistakes than they do and hasn't won anything significant since Grand Prix 2018 when Alina got hurt. She may have won anyway but Alina getting injured made that a certainty. What happened to Rika at her only World Championships and last year's Grand Prix final? She didn't seem the samel. I don't know if it's the pressure or what but she just didn't seem the same to me as the season before.

At this point I just hope we have an upcoming season so we can see who does what and where the dust settles. It would be terrible if they didn't have a season. But life is more precious and that comes first.

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So, Fernandez was already champion material when he came to Orser?
Orser is helping skaters, especially mentally and brings them back to success. Eteri is taking girls with good genes, who are burn outs when they're 17. None of her skaters have ever recovered from a crisis, and they ALL start to struggle at some point. If Eteri is not able to fix that and is just replacing a struggled skater with a younger one who is still functioning, what does this say about her ability as a coach?

Scott512 said:

She's great at posing too.

What did Moir say about Alina? Did he say she was a jumping machine and that's it? He's only an ice dancer and they don't even leave the ice. Lol. That would be like a nursing assistant criticizing a doctor. Lol. Hmmm.

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Excuse me? Ice dancing is a sporting discipline in its own right and it‘s just as difficult and deserving of respect as skating that “leaves the ice“. I am pretty confident that most of the current top single skaters would struggle to perform on the top level in ice dance. That’s because the requirements are just so vastly different. You can prefer single skating (I know I do) but that doesn‘t mean you get to disrespect ice dancers like that.

Now, I have no idea what Moir said about Alina, I‘ve never heard anything about it. It would be good if someone offered a source, me thinks. If he did indeed disrespect her in some way, that‘s of course disappointing. But even if he did - diminishing his talents doesn‘t make the whole situation any better at all.

Gabby30 said:

And no, Eteri is not "dominating" the sport for "years". That's again perception. In 2013/ 14 season she had Yulia. No olympic medals in singles, only a silver medal at worlds. In the 2014/15 season she didn't had any successful senior skaters. Them came Medvedeva, that was about it. The olympic season, Medvedeva slowly faded away, Zagitova was the star. No world medal in that season. Post olympic season she didn't had a real star.
Zagitova winning worlds in that season was nice, but it was still a weak performance. Oh, and btw, Tursynbaeva disappeared after that season.
Last season was as expected, the juniors having a good first senior season- it'a a typical trend, we had this before with Kihira, Higuchi, Mihara, Kaori, Yulia and co. Looking at the performances, none of the "3A" had a clean or in any kind special skate. It was ( and still is) just a huge hype around nothing.

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I suppose it's all about perspective. Here's mine:

In 2013-2014: Yulia won the GPF silver medal, World silver medal, and Team OGM. Evgenia won the JGPF and JWC bronze medals.
In 2014-2015: Evgenia won the JGPF and JWC gold medals, and Serafima won the JGPF and JWC silver medals.
In 2015-2016: Evgenia won the GPF, RusNats, Euros, and Worlds gold medals, and Polina won the JGPF gold medal
In 2016-2017: Evgenia again won the GPF, RusNats, Euros, and Worlds gold medals, Polina won JGP and JrNats medals, and Alina won the JGPF and JWC gold medals.
In 2017-2018: Evgenia won the silver medals at Euros, Olympic team event, and Olympic individual events. And, Alina won the GPF, RusNats, Euros, and the Olympics (plus a team silver). In juniors: Aleksandra won the JGPF and JWC, Aliona won silver medals at the JGPF and JWC, and Anastasia Tarakanova won the bronze medal at the JGPF.
In 2018-2019: Alina won Worlds and the silver medal at the GPF. Elizabet won the silver medal at 4CC, Winter Universiade, and Worlds. In juniors: Aliona won the JGPF, Sasha won the JWC and the silver medal at the JGPF, and Anna won the silver medal at JWC and the RusNats title.
In 2019-2020: Aliona won the GPF and Euros and a silver medal at RusNats, Anna won RusNats and silver medals at the GPF and Euros, and Aleksandra won bronze medals at the GPF, RusNats, and Euros. In juniors: Kamila won the JGPF and JWC and Daria won the JWC silver medal and JGPF bronze medal.

That's not even taking into account the individual JGP/GP and challenger events, nor considering that most of her skaters are still skating (Anna, Aliona, Kamila, Daria, Maiia, etc., plus Alina's possible (hopeful!) return and Elizabet, who has not announced a retirement). I would call that dominating the sport for years

Gabby30 said:

And no, Eteri is not "dominating" the sport for "years". That's again perception. In 2013/ 14 season she had Yulia. No olympic medals in singles, only a silver medal at worlds. In the 2014/15 season she didn't had any successful senior skaters. Them came Medvedeva, that was about it. The olympic season, Medvedeva slowly faded away, Zagitova was the star. No world medal in that season. Post olympic season she didn't had a real star.
Zagitova winning worlds in that season was nice, but it was still a weak performance. Oh, and btw, Tursynbaeva disappeared after that season.
Last season was as expected, the juniors having a good first senior season- it'a a typical trend, we had this before with Kihira, Higuchi, Mihara, Kaori, Yulia and co. Looking at the performances, none of the "3A" had a clean or in any kind special skate. It was ( and still is) just a huge hype around nothing.

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eteris ladies won every event they entered last season and clearly would have won worlds without an issue.

What coach in the history of figure skating has ever had skaters back to back to back to back to back to back to back with Yulia then Zhenya then Alina then Sasha then Aliona then Anna then Kamila. It's never happened before and may never again. What she has done to make all these great skaters is an absolute Miracle of figure skating. It's reality. And for this to happen in just four or five years is remarkable.

Gabby30 said:

And no, Eteri is not "dominating" the sport for "years". That's again perception. In 2013/ 14 season she had Yulia. No olympic medals in singles, only a silver medal at worlds. In the 2014/15 season she didn't had any successful senior skaters. Them came Medvedeva, that was about it. The olympic season, Medvedeva slowly faded away, Zagitova was the star. No world medal in that season. Post olympic season she didn't had a real star.
Zagitova winning worlds in that season was nice, but it was still a weak performance. Oh, and btw, Tursynbaeva disappeared after that season.
Last season was as expected, the juniors having a good first senior season- it'a a typical trend, we had this before with Kihira, Higuchi, Mihara, Kaori, Yulia and co. Looking at the performances, none of the "3A" had a clean or in any kind special skate. It was ( and still is) just a huge hype around nothing.

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Yes, Eteri is dominating the sport. You are completely discrediting everything that she has done for this sport. Eteri is a relatively “new” coach, so of course she doesn’t have the same medal count or reputation as Brian. Yulia was Eteri’s first skater who made it to the Olympics. She didn’t know how to protect Yulia from the pressure or the attention of fans. It was a major learning experience and she redeemed herself at the 2018 Olympics with Alina and Zhenya. Zhenya did not “slowly fade away”. She was still in gold medal contention and many people still thought that she would be able to beat Alina. If you bothered to look at the scores, you would see that she almost did beat Alina. I would not call that “fading”. Also, Alina still medaled at all her events in the 2019 season, except Russian Nationals. Actually, at Russian Nationals Eteri’s junior girls swept the podium. Alina performed two very strong programs and she deserved to win that World Championship. She did not skate “weak”. If you think that you could skate better, then go ahead and win worlds and the olympics Yes, Elizabet got injured and has not been able to recover. There is not much information about her condition, so I don’t want to comment on that. As for Sasha, Anna, and Aliona, they don’t like being called the 3A so please don’t call them that. I think that they had many special performances because their fandoms have grown so much over this season. So, while you might not have thought their performances were “special” many people did. Did you actually watch any of their performances? Aliona skated clean all season except at Europeans. Anna has landed all of her triples this season and has only fallen on her quads, which is understandable. Sasha performed well at the beginning of the season, but did not perform as well at the end. That might have been because of coaching disagreements, growth, etc no one really knows. These girls are breaking records and doing things that have never been done in skating before. They deserve all of the hype they are getting.

Fluture said:

Excuse me? Ice dancing is a sporting discipline in its own right and it‘s just as difficult and deserving of respect as skating that “leaves the ice“.

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Why? It's their opinion that it is a lesser sport, and they're entitled to it, much like the ones who think skating as a whole isn't really a sport. Saying the single skaters will find ID difficult is meaningless because well, Ice Dancers will find singles skating difficult.

Scott512 said:

She's great at posing too.

What did Moir say about Alina? Did he say she was a jumping machine and that's it? He's only an ice dancer and they don't even leave the ice. Lol. That would be like a nursing assistant criticizing a doctor. Lol. Hmmm.

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He didn't use the term "jumping machine", though Alina wasn't worth for him to call her by her name even though she wore the same golden medal as him that time already. She was "that russian girl who only jumps" for him. It was in a radio interview a month or two after the olympics and this was part of his opinion about the future of ladies skating . Interesting difference with Tessa, who, when asked about Alina, spoke about her with full respect.

No one had a clean skate? So Aliona at literally every event besides NHK LP and Euros LP didn’t happen? And even then it was 1 step out and 1 fall? Okay...

Gabby30 said:

So, Fernandez was already champion material when he came to Orser?
Orser is helping skaters, especially mentally and brings them back to success. Eteri is taking girls with good genes, who are burn outs when they're 17. None of her skaters have ever recovered from a crisis, and they ALL start to struggle at some point. If Eteri is not able to fix that and is just replacing a struggled skater with a younger one who is still functioning, what does this say about her ability as a coach?

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Exactly. There is no need for Eteri to go back and fix the older ones, because she has younger ones coming up. Eteri coaches in Sambo 70 yes, but her students mostly all have triple jumps when they come to her - with the exception of maybe Yulia, Zhenya, and her own daughter. And look at where they all went under their guidance once their bodies began to follow nature.

It is true that girls with a certain physique that is partly made from genetics and youth is easier to work with. Like genetically, Medvedeav's physique was able to hold on for that Olympic season whereas someone like Yulia wouldn't have been able to. You are allowed to have your own opinoin on it, but it is a factory that has to this point, found success. But the success has not found itself longevity and sustainability. There is a reason that the technique that makes the girls so successful when they are young fails when they are just a bit older, and they get replaced.

Spirals for Miles said:

I suppose it's all about perspective. Here's mine:

In 2013-2014: Yulia won the GPF silver medal, World silver medal, and Team OGM. Evgenia won the JGPF and JWC bronze medals.
In 2014-2015: Evgenia won the JGPF and JWC gold medals, and Serafima won the JGPF and JWC silver medals.
In 2015-2016: Evgenia won the GPF, RusNats, Euros, and Worlds gold medals, and Polina won the JGPF gold medal
In 2016-2017: Evgenia again won the GPF, RusNats, Euros, and Worlds gold medals, Polina won JGP and JrNats medals, and Alina won the JGPF and JWC gold medals.
In 2017-2018: Evgenia won the silver medals at Euros, Olympic team event, and Olympic individual events. And, Alina won the GPF, RusNats, Euros, and Worlds.
In 2018-2019: Alina won Worlds and the silver medal at the GPF. Elizabet won the silver medal at 4CC, Winter Universiade, and Worlds.
In 2019-2020: Aliona won the GPF and Euros and a silver medal at RusNats, Anna won RusNats and silver medals at the GPF and Euros, and Aleksandra won bronze medals at the GPF, RusNats, and Euros.

That's not even taking into account the junior skaters or the individual JGP/GP and challenger events, nor considering that most of her skaters are still skating (Anna, Aliona, juniors, etc., plus Alina's possible (hopeful!) return and Elizabet, who has not announced a retirement). I would call that dominating the sport for years

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that's some perspective! Amazing results and consistent domination on all level of. Eteriss ladies for the past 7 years. Thank you for laying out all of that. Gabby has her opinion and that's fine but she keeps minimizing what Eteris girls have done the last 7 years or so. I really don't know why this is even an issue now unless the distain by some for this coach is so strong that it causes comments like Gabby's minimizing everything this coach and her girls have done.

Look at the record Evgenia had with Eteri. Wow! Historic.

Fluture said:

Excuse me? Ice dancing is a sporting discipline in its own right and it‘s just as difficult and deserving of respect as skating that “leaves the ice“. I am pretty confident that most of the current top single skaters would struggle to perform on the top level in ice dance. That’s because the requirements are just so vastly different. You can prefer single skating (I know I do) but that doesn‘t mean you get to disrespect ice dancers like that.

Now, I have no idea what Moir said about Alina, I‘ve never heard anything about it. It would be good if someone offered a source, me thinks. If he did indeed disrespect her in some way, that‘s of course disappointing. But even if he did - diminishing his talents doesn‘t make the whole situation any better at all.

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ice dancing is not on par with pairs figure skating nor is it on par with singles figure skating in my opinion.

Good Vibes Only said:

Yes, Eteri is dominating the sport. You are completely discrediting everything that she has done for this sport. Eteri is a relatively “new” coach, so of course she doesn’t have the same medal count or reputation as Brian. Yulia was Eteri’s first skater who made it to the Olympics. She didn’t know how to protect Yulia from the pressure or the attention of fans. It was a major learning experience and she redeemed herself at the 2018 Olympics with Alina and Zhenya. Zhenya did not “slowly fade away”. She was still in gold medal contention and many people still thought that she would be able to beat Alina. If you bothered to look at the scores, you would see that she almost did beat Alina. I would not call that “fading”. Also, Alina still medaled at all her events in the 2019 season, except Russian Nationals. Actually, at Russian Nationals Eteri’s junior girls swept the podium. Alina performed two very strong programs and she deserved to win that World Championship. She did not skate “weak”. If you think that you could skate better, then go ahead and win worlds and the olympics Yes, Elizabeth got injured and has not been able to recover. There is not much information about her condition, so I don’t want to comment on that. As for Sasha, Anna, and Aliona, they don’t like being called the 3A so please don’t call them that. I think that they had many special performances because their fandoms have grown so much over this season. So, while you might not have thought their performances were “special” many people did. Did you actually watch any of their performances? Aliona skated clean all season except at Europeans. Anna has landed all of her triples this season and has only fallen on her quads, which is understandable. Sasha performed well at the beginning of the season, but did not perform as well at the end. That might have been because of coaching disagreements, growth, etc no one really knows. These girls are breaking records and doing things that have never been done in skating before. They deserve all of the hype they are getting.

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Good points. I think saying that evgenia faded and that Alina's World gold was weak was meant to inflame things and I guess it did. I just don't get the reasoning for so many people to discredit coach Eteri in the Russian ladies thread. Not everything has to be roses and kittens and bunnies and criticisms are fine. Some of the things written about her and her pupils are way way off and unfair.

eterislouisvuitton said:

Exactly. There is no need for Eteri to go back and fix the older ones, because she has younger ones coming up. Eteri coaches in Sambo 70 yes, but her students mostly all have triple jumps when they come to her - with the exception of maybe Yulia, Zhenya, and her own daughter. And look at where they all went under their guidance once their bodies began to follow nature.

It is true that girls with a certain physique that is partly made from genetics and youth is easier to work with. Like genetically, Medvedeav's physique was able to hold on for that Olympic season whereas someone like Yulia wouldn't have been able to. You are allowed to have your own opinoin on it, but it is a factory that has to this point, found success. But the success has not found itself longevity and sustainability. There is a reason that the technique that makes the girls so successful when they are young fails when they are just a bit older, and they get replaced.

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You can't have sustainability and Longevity when the stupid rules allow only three skaters per country when in the case of Russia they could field hand solid to Great ladies in any competition. So if you're not going to get group Grand Prix events and they're not going to get Europeans or worlds or Olympics why hang around?

Can you imagine if Wimbledon tennis tournament or Masters Golf Tournament only allowed in 3 Americans? Lol.

Gabby30 said:

So, Fernandez was already champion material when he came to Orser?
Orser is helping skaters, especially mentally and brings them back to success. Eteri is taking girls with good genes, who are burn outs when they're 17. None of her skaters have ever recovered from a crisis, and they ALL start to struggle at some point. If Eteri is not able to fix that and is just replacing a struggled skater with a younger one who is still functioning, what does this say about her ability as a coach?

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You came up with one skater Gabby. I know of Brian's excellent as a skater and as a coach but he's been coaching 4 more than twice as long as Eteri. Let's see where she is overall as a coach especially with the men in another 10 years. But it takes time and it took her time to develop this incredible conveyor belt of girls and ladies in Russia.

Zhenya was not burned out at 17. She did great at the Olympics at 18 years of age. But it is true that some girls are gone by age 17 but that's only because the competition is so rough and so deep with the Russian girls. Girls are coming up all the time to push the other girls out of the way.

I wish we had a little bit more of the ranking systems that tennis and golf use so people likeAlina and Zhenya could still be in future European and world and Olympic events. But unless the ISU changes their rules stronger girls who are younger will come up in Russia and push the older girls out of the way. There's a wise saying that is sports and that is life.

eterislouisvuitton said:

Exactly. There is no need for Eteri to go back and fix the older ones, because she has younger ones coming up. Eteri coaches in Sambo 70 yes, but her students mostly all have triple jumps when they come to her - with the exception of maybe Yulia, Zhenya, and her own daughter. And look at where they all went under their guidance once their bodies began to follow nature.

It is true that girls with a certain physique that is partly made from genetics and youth is easier to work with. Like genetically, Medvedeav's physique was able to hold on for that Olympic season whereas someone like Yulia wouldn't have been able to. You are allowed to have your own opinoin on it, but it is a factory that has to this point, found success. But the success has not found itself longevity and sustainability. There is a reason that the technique that makes the girls so successful when they are young fails when they are just a bit older, and they get replaced.

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What about Alina? She was already 13 when she came to Eteri and her only triple was 3S. What about Aliona? She had most jumps, but unstable with many falls and low results. What about Anna, who is coached by Eteri since 9? It could be applied similarly to all her girls. Most of them were nearly unknown before they came to her and didn't reach any astounding results even in novice categories. From the recent examples, just look at Daria's (and even Maiia's) progress throughout the season. Daria was unstable at the beginning of the season with the problems of delivering of the clean skate, but she finished with maybe the most aestetic and completely clean skates at russian junior nationals, junior worlds and Spartakiad.

Claiming that "And look at where they all went under their guidance once their bodies began to follow nature" is just uninformed or deliberately biased. Practially every skater who got under her guidance made some serious progress in the sense of stability of the jumps and general technical progress or from the aestetic point.

Excuse me if I interrupt this nice argument, but can I ask the intermediate question whether anyone here knows what percentage of the coaching in TT is still attributed to Eteri at all?

Gabby30 said:

So, Fernandez was already champion material when he came to Orser?
Orser is helping skaters, especially mentally and brings them back to success. Eteri is taking girls with good genes, who are burn outs when they're 17. None of her skaters have ever recovered from a crisis, and they ALL start to struggle at some point. If Eteri is not able to fix that and is just replacing a struggled skater with a younger one who is still functioning, what does this say about her ability as a coach?

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Look, I mean no disrespect but I do fear another “Orser vs. Tutberidze“ war. And we‘ve had enough of those in May 2018 and after that... So personally not going into that.

However, first off, I do think Eteri is a successful coach. Her skaters have swept the entire GP (including the final) and the Euros last season, the season before Tursynbaeva and Zagitova won two medals at Worlds, the season before it was Medvedeva and Zagitova... In terms of pure result it doesn‘t matter who won her medals - it doesn‘t matter that her top skaters change every two seasons. In terms of results and medals only - her system is blooming. Now, you could argue that it isn‘t good as a whole for the sport. I would, to a certain degree, agree with you.

Because it is truly another thing to criticize her system. I know I do and I do get your point here, even if I think you‘re being a bit too aggressive about it. It didn‘t matter that Lipnitskaya stopped being a gold medal contender after the Olympic season because on came Medvedeva. It didn‘t matter that Medvedeva slowly burnt out after two seasons on top because Zagitova was ready to take over. It didn’t matter that Zagitova lost motivation because the “3A“ were ready to go. And if someone of Anna and Aliona falters in the Olympic season, it won‘t matter either because by then Kamila, Daria and Maiia will be senior eligible. It‘s a pattern for sure. Two seasons on top and then they‘re burnt out or injured or losing motivation or a combination of it. Maybe it’s the excessive pounding on the bones, maybe it‘s the technique largely dependent on twisting one‘s body into the jumps, maybe it’s other factors that were discussed ad nauseam here. Is it good for the sport? Who knows. I don‘t think it is - even though I appreciate every single of her girls - but I‘m not the one to ultimately decide.

Is it good for the skaters? Another story, frankly. Not many have success at an age that young. Not many can leave the sport at 17 and be World, European or Olympic Champions. Maybe Eteri takes girls with good genes. But she and her team are the ones helping them become champions. They have figured out how to squeeze every single point from the judging system, they have figured out how to create successful programs and train successful skaters. Even skaters like Medvedeva, who have politely acknowledged that the overworking (like the excessive run throughs) might have been detrimental to their health, have shown nothing but gratitude for the success they had together with the team.

Does that make some of the methods used morally correct? Does success justify the burn out following the stardom? Personally, I don‘t think it does and I think we should keep acknowledging the problematic areas, the flaws of that ”system“.

But what irks me personally is that it‘s so often got to be “Eteri is either a terrible or the best coach ever“. Maybe she’s neither? I’m not a fan of hers but I respect her for being a a largely successful coach who has made a name for herself by hard work, resourcefulness and a fair bit of intelligence and talent in figuring out the current judging system. I dislike some of the coaching methods implemented in her training (that were discussed by current and former athletes of hers) and do think that these flaws should be called out and criticized as they can be (and have been) harmful and dangerous to the teenagers she‘s training.

But it‘s just a tiny bit frustrating that apparently you can either be a “fan“ or a ”hater“. Because I know I‘d prefer to stay neither the one nor the other.

Scott512 said:

Zhenya was not burned out at 17. She did great at the Olympics at 18 years of age.

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Well, the fact that she was dragging her injured body to the Olympics and then got through the three programs by sheer will doesn‘t make a credible argument, in my opinion. She did great at the Olympics, sure, but she also competed the entire season (it wasn‘t ”just“ the last competitions, she recently mentioned that in an interview) on a broken foot and then had to take a few months off afterwards to heal her body. Otherwise she wouldn‘t even be able to skate now. She literally said the training “wasn’t kind on her bones“. Is that not burnt out to you? To me it is.

Gabby, I'm sorry if my posting seems harsh to you today. I
tried to find a message link for you so I could apologize to you in a private message. It must feel like we ganged up on you today. Sorry.

Maybe the truth about eteri as a coach is somewhere in the middle of what you say and what I say.

Fried said:

Excuse me if I interrupt this nice argument, but can I ask the intermediate question whether anyone here knows what percentage of the coaching in TT is still attributed to Eteri at all?

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She bears the main responsibility. She is the head of the coaching team. She does the main decisions. According to the skaters themselves she never missed a single training session apart from when she escorts her skaters to competitions. Comes early, leaves last. Is that enough?

flanker said:

Comes early, leaves last. Is that enough?

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This question proves that you are slipping into victimhood again. My question is not enough or not enough. I only notice again and again that on the one hand there is always talk of the Tutberidze team, but then only Eteri is spoken of. Not a word from Daniil or the two Sergejs. This affects both fans and critics. And I'm surprised at the number of their students and what they say.