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2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating
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Thank you!
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- Feb 19, 2014
That is heartbreaking. I truly hope she finds all the happiness in the world for herself going forward.
Just a few comments on some posts I have read -
No one is above criticism. Criticism is not 'hate'. But it sure can feel like it under certain circumstances. An endless repetition of it changes the way it is received. Nothing happens in a vacuum. The 'how, when and why' not to mention the 'tone' all contribute to how it comes across. Especially when it seems like there is one set of standards for one skater and another for everyone else.
Going back to the 2018/2019 season: one skater who was struggling got the 'she just needs time' treatment. Another skater, also dealing with a completely different body, was 'deteriorating'. I'm just using this as an example. Not trying to rehash the past. It's not even about the skaters. It's about the people who post here and read here.
As for commenting on skater's physical beauty, that is something I do quite a lot. Part of loving FS as a sport is the love of its beauty and by extension the skater's beauty. Whether a skater is a child, teenager, woman or man I don't understand not appreciating their beauty in the same way you would appreciate the beauty of art. It isn't 'creepy' unless you are objectifying a person or diminishing them. Or unless your intention is 'creepy'.
I'm not an authority on the subject of the appropriateness of publicly acknowledging beauty. Nor do I claim to know everything that is written on this forum. I mostly stay in Alina's thread. I am a woman with two teenage nieces. Everything I have read in that thread appreciating and praising her physical appearance is nothing that I wouldn't be comfortable reading if it was posted about my nieces. If anyone reads something 'creepy' on this forum, report it. I'll be doing the same.
Back to Maria's post.... Last year I posted that every single one of these girls are doing the best they can. Everyone's 'best' looks different. They are all working with a different set of advantages and disadvantages. They can only do what they can do. Some things are absolutely beyond their power and out of their control. Their careers are over in the blink of an eye. Let's appreciate them while we have them.
No two skaters bring the same gift to the ice. We will always have those skaters that we connect with for reasons you can't even put into words. As for the others - If you are only seeing everything they are not how can you appreciate what they are?
And we can all enjoy discussing the things they could do better. And we can all bang our heads in frustration at the judging which, let's face it, will never be completely fair in a subjective sport. But we can all remember the skaters aren't to blame for their scores and things beyond their control.
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- Mar 16, 2019
Per Maria’s coach, she knew about Maria’s decision to retire since November. She also said Maria is getting married soon.
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- Jan 20, 2019
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I agree with those who expressed the opinion that constructive criticism can be fair and healthy. A lot of that criticism is also subjective and there have been many discussions here and all over the forum where it's always clear in the end that we will never ALL like something or agree on everything, no matter how objective we try to be.
Personally, when it comes to skaters I don't really know much about or don't follow, I would rather not write anything about them than express my opinion just for the sake of having an opinion about everything and everyone.
Also, no one believes more strongly in the fact that Alina is so much more than just her looks than us, her fans
Personally, when it comes to skaters I don't really know much about or don't follow, I would rather not write anything about them than express my opinion just for the sake of having an opinion about everything and everyone.
Also, no one believes more strongly in the fact that Alina is so much more than just her looks than us, her fans
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- Apr 26, 2018
So now out of the original “fantastic four“ only Sakhanovich and Medvedeva are left. Sad. 
but I wish Maria all the best for the future. She wasn‘t my favorite but she had many lovely qualities and helped save the spots for the Russian ladies many times. (Junior Worlds when she finished second after both Tsurskaya and Fedichkina had to withdraw)
She was also very brave to try another season and I hope she can heal and move forward. I‘m sure she‘ll have a bright future.
But the thing is, this is all just very subjective. I know the season and the skaters you‘re talking about and for me it was the complete opposite experience! In my eyes, it was one skater “being ruined by her new coach“ while the other one was “just going through puberty and would be fine soon”. I think it‘s fascinating: while we‘ll certainly agree that both skaters in question have had their fair share of hate, the two of us still have such a different recollection of essentially the same stuff. This is why all these “who had/has it worse“ discussions are futile sometimes.
Being totally frank here: It often annoys me how often Alina (and TeamTutberidze in general) fans do what I perceive as whining and complaining about how everybody hates her. I personally think she‘s quite loved on this forum overall, rightly so, and a lot (not all of it, of course) of the criticism comes from good intentions and without malice. I’m sure some will think I‘m crazy because *clearly* that’s not the case and she really is being attacked all the time but this just shows.. well, that people are different, as are their viewpoints and the conclusions they‘re likely to make. This isn‘t to say that we shouldn‘t do out best to stay objective - we should! - just that we won‘t always quite manage.
I think a lot of this is due to being a fan and a sort of “pain tolerance“ of how much criticism we‘re willing to face when it comes to our idols. I‘ll say it like it is: While I like to think I can remain as objective as possible, I will also not deny that my criticism for my favorites will always be more mild compared to those that aren‘t so dear to me. It’s an instinct, it’s how you phrase certain things and read through them afterwards and think: Well, if this was not Medvedeva/Kostornaya/whoever, I‘d have been more blunt. But imho, it happens to everybody. Nobody can remain entirely without bias. What we can do, however, and I think this goes for both sides, is try to look beyond it.
Meaning, as a fan: acknowledging that with being a fan there always comes a sort of inherent bias, that as soon as we get emotionally involved, we won‘t be able to remain entirely impartial. So, what we might perceive as hate a lot od the time will just be someone who‘s not emotionally involved whatsoever and therefore has a different (and more rational) view on the situation.
And as those who criticize: that there are fans out there who might take the things we say seriously and try to stay respectful.
I don‘t know, I feel like I‘m rambling but my point basically is:
I know what being a fan and thinking your favorite is constantly under attack feels like. It’s frustrating. But at the same time, I also know what trying to remain as objective and respectful as possible and still getting accused of hate feels like. And it‘s just as frustrating.
And what‘s even more frustrating is taking a break from the forum for a few days/weeks and going back to read pages full of “You‘re a hater!“ - “No, I‘m not!“ - “Yes, you are and this quote from you from two months, five days and seven minutes ago proves it!!“.
So, TL;DR: if I could wish for something in this thread, it would be for people to stop accusing others of being a hater and digging up (and misquoting) old posts and instead either ignoring or answering with reason and arguments.
but I wish Maria all the best for the future. She wasn‘t my favorite but she had many lovely qualities and helped save the spots for the Russian ladies many times. (Junior Worlds when she finished second after both Tsurskaya and Fedichkina had to withdraw)She was also very brave to try another season and I hope she can heal and move forward. I‘m sure she‘ll have a bright future.
But the thing is, this is all just very subjective. I know the season and the skaters you‘re talking about and for me it was the complete opposite experience! In my eyes, it was one skater “being ruined by her new coach“ while the other one was “just going through puberty and would be fine soon”. I think it‘s fascinating: while we‘ll certainly agree that both skaters in question have had their fair share of hate, the two of us still have such a different recollection of essentially the same stuff. This is why all these “who had/has it worse“ discussions are futile sometimes.
Being totally frank here: It often annoys me how often Alina (and TeamTutberidze in general) fans do what I perceive as whining and complaining about how everybody hates her. I personally think she‘s quite loved on this forum overall, rightly so, and a lot (not all of it, of course) of the criticism comes from good intentions and without malice. I’m sure some will think I‘m crazy because *clearly* that’s not the case and she really is being attacked all the time but this just shows.. well, that people are different, as are their viewpoints and the conclusions they‘re likely to make. This isn‘t to say that we shouldn‘t do out best to stay objective - we should! - just that we won‘t always quite manage.
I think a lot of this is due to being a fan and a sort of “pain tolerance“ of how much criticism we‘re willing to face when it comes to our idols. I‘ll say it like it is: While I like to think I can remain as objective as possible, I will also not deny that my criticism for my favorites will always be more mild compared to those that aren‘t so dear to me. It’s an instinct, it’s how you phrase certain things and read through them afterwards and think: Well, if this was not Medvedeva/Kostornaya/whoever, I‘d have been more blunt. But imho, it happens to everybody. Nobody can remain entirely without bias. What we can do, however, and I think this goes for both sides, is try to look beyond it.
Meaning, as a fan: acknowledging that with being a fan there always comes a sort of inherent bias, that as soon as we get emotionally involved, we won‘t be able to remain entirely impartial. So, what we might perceive as hate a lot od the time will just be someone who‘s not emotionally involved whatsoever and therefore has a different (and more rational) view on the situation.
And as those who criticize: that there are fans out there who might take the things we say seriously and try to stay respectful.
I don‘t know, I feel like I‘m rambling but my point basically is:
I know what being a fan and thinking your favorite is constantly under attack feels like. It’s frustrating. But at the same time, I also know what trying to remain as objective and respectful as possible and still getting accused of hate feels like. And it‘s just as frustrating.
And what‘s even more frustrating is taking a break from the forum for a few days/weeks and going back to read pages full of “You‘re a hater!“ - “No, I‘m not!“ - “Yes, you are and this quote from you from two months, five days and seven minutes ago proves it!!“.
So, TL;DR: if I could wish for something in this thread, it would be for people to stop accusing others of being a hater and digging up (and misquoting) old posts and instead either ignoring or answering with reason and arguments.
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2014
So now out of the original “fantastic four“ only Sakhanovich and Medvedeva are left. Sad.
She was also very brave to try another season and I hope she can heal and move forward. I‘m sure she‘ll have a bright future.
But the thing is, this is all just very subjective. I know the season and the skaters you‘re talking about and for me it was the complete opposite experience! In my eyes, it was one skater “being ruined by her new coach“ while the other one was “just going through puberty and would be fine soon”. I think it‘s fascinating: while we‘ll certainly agree that both skaters in question have had their fair share of hate, the two of us still have such a different recollection of essentially the same stuff. This is why all these “who had/has it worse“ discussions are futile sometimes.
Being totally frank here: It often annoys me how often Alina (and TeamTutberidze in general) fans do what I perceive as whining and complaining about how everybody hates her. I personally think she‘s quite loved on this forum overall, rightly so, and a lot (not all of it, of course) of the criticism comes from good intentions and without malice. I’m sure some will think I‘m crazy because *clearly* that’s not the case and she really is being attacked all the time but this just shows.. well, that people are different, as are their viewpoints and the conclusions they‘re likely to make. This isn‘t to say that we shouldn‘t do out best to stay objective - we should! - just that we won‘t always quite manage.
I think a lot of this is due to being a fan and a sort of “pain tolerance“ of how much criticism we‘re willing to face when it comes to our idols. I‘ll say it like it is: While I like to think I can remain as objective as possible, I will also not deny that my criticism for my favorites will always be more mild compared to those that aren‘t so dear to me. It’s an instinct, it’s how you phrase certain things and read through them afterwards and think: Well, if this was not Medvedeva/Kostornaya/whoever, I‘d have been more blunt. But imho, it happens to everybody. Nobody can remain entirely without bias. What we can do, however, and I think this goes for both sides, is try to look beyond it.
Meaning, as a fan: acknowledging that with being a fan there always comes a sort of inherent bias, that as soon as we get emotionally involved, we won‘t be able to remain entirely impartial. So, what we might perceive as hate a lot od the time will just be someone who‘s not emotionally involved whatsoever and therefore has a different (and more rational) view on the situation.
And as those who criticize: that there are fans out there who might take the things we say seriously and try to stay respectful.
I don‘t know, I feel like I‘m rambling but my point basically is:
I know what being a fan and thinking your favorite is constantly under attack feels like. It’s frustrating. But at the same time, I also know what trying to remain as objective and respectful as possible and still getting accused of hate feels like. And it‘s just as frustrating.
And what‘s even more frustrating is taking a break from the forum for a few days/weeks and going back to read pages full of “You‘re a hater!“ - “No, I‘m not!“ - “Yes, you are and this quote from you from two months, five days and seven minutes ago proves it!!“.
So, TL;DR: if I could wish for something in this thread, it would be for people to stop accusing others of being a hater and digging up (and misquoting) old posts and instead either ignoring or answering with reason and arguments.
I don't think you are crazy.
You made a very good point about the different way things are perceived and how subjective an experience is. I understand what you are saying.
As for Alina fans being overly defensive or sensitive, I'll speak for myself - you are probably right. A lot of it is leftover from the fallout of her public reception in Russia by the media and the powers that be in skating immediately after she won the Olympics. Not going to rehash that, but it was just weird. Kind of like she ruined Christmas or something. And it kept being weird for an awkwardly long time. So it makes me happy to watch her growing in popularity and success in other places besides Japan and to continue celebrating her success.
There has also been the whole 'retirement' vs. 'we are on a break' back and forth that has not been a lot of fun to read or participate in.
I've learned that how my posts are perceived is beyond my control. I've had a poster call my posts distasteful, disrespectful, accuse me of rumor mongering, pretending to be a victim, and feasting on gossip and rumors. I did not enjoy reading this, but at the end of the day it's her problem, not mine. As long as you are okay with what you are posting and okay with the reaction you receive, then that's it.
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- Mar 20, 2019
I think this might be because there was never an “official“ comeback announcement afaik, just her and Daniil saying on a livestream that they‘re currently in the process of finding music for the new programS (!) and working towards the new season. Imo, this is enough for me to reason that she will indeed compete if there are competitions next year. So, now all we can do is wait for Daniil to hurry up and finish choreographing for everyone.
And no, I don‘t think it makes you a hater.
Thank you, Fluture! You’re always very reasonable and I enjoy your posts very much.
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- Apr 26, 2018
I don't think you are crazy.
There has also been the whole 'retirement' vs. 'we are on a break' back and forth that has not been a lot of fun to read or participate in.
I've learned that how my posts are perceived is beyond my control. I've had a poster call me disgusting, accuse me of pretending to be a victim, and feasting on gossip and rumors. I did not enjoy reading this, but at the end of the day it's her problem, not mine. As long as you are okay with what you are posting and okay with the reaction you receive, then that's it.
I don‘t think I‘m crazy either but it‘s good to have confirmation, so thank you!
Oh, and I get being overly defensive, I‘m the same for Zhenya occasionally, after the whole drama that the coaching change was. I still have to resist jumping into every discussion to defend her. I‘d say I‘m better than when I first joined the FS fandom (which, from an outsider‘s perspective sometimes is just a different kind of crazy) but as evident in this thread, not always quite successful. (I sometimes wonder why I‘ve never gotten my post digged up and misquoted - even after “threatened“ to have this happen - and then I think it might be because wading through my 6k or so essays could be too big a task.
)As for the whole “retirement or break“ discussion - honestly, I never understood it. So what if some think she‘s retired? If she competes next season and wins a few medals, she‘ll have “successfully come back from retirement“ and how many Russian ladies can claim to have done that? Would be quite the feat, imo, even more so than just returning from a break. So, if I was still a major Alina fan, I‘d be having a field day going along on the “Alina retired!!!“ train. Only to have it feel all the more sweet when she does come back.
Also, I‘m sorry you got called all those things. I thankfully did not see that post (probably was deleted in time by the mods) but it‘s not a reaction we should be okay with. Every time I read something like this, I have to think that skaters (often as young as 13, 14) have to put up with hate comments on a daily basis. It makes them tough to a certain degree but it can also cause a lot of damage and that‘s just sad.
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- Feb 19, 2014
I don‘t think I‘m crazy either but it‘s good to have confirmation, so thank you!
Oh, and I get being overly defensive, I‘m the same for Zhenya occasionally, after the whole drama that the coaching change was. I still have to resist jumping into every discussion to defend her. I‘d say I‘m better than when I first joined the FS fandom (which, from an outsider‘s perspective sometimes is just a different kind of crazy) but as evident in this thread, not always quite successful. (I sometimes wonder why I‘ve never gotten my post digged up and misquoted - even after “threatened“ to have this happen - and then I think it might be because wading through my 6k or so essays could be too big a task.
As for the whole “retirement or break“ discussion - honestly, I never understood it. So what if some think she‘s retired? If she competes next season and wins a few medals, she‘ll have “successfully come back from retirement“ and how many Russian ladies can claim to have done that? Would be quite the feat, imo, even more so than just returning from a break. So, if I was still a major Alina fan, I‘d be having a field day going along on the “Alina retired!!!“ train. Only to have it feel all the more sweet when she does come back.
Also, I‘m sorry you got called all those things. I thankfully did not see that post (probably was deleted in time by the mods) but it‘s not a reaction we should be okay with. Every time I read something like this, I have to think that skaters (often as young as 13, 14) have to put up with hate comments on a daily basis. It makes them tough to a certain degree but it can also cause a lot of damage and that‘s just sad.
I am probably the last person to be confirming people aren't crazy.
I'm definitely more than half-way there at this point.The post(s) is/are still there. I checked out of curiosity. No worries. We can say whatever we want here within the guidelines of the forum but we are not exempt from the consequences of a getting a response to our words that isn't positive. I'm willing to accept whatever consequences I have coming my way.
I never understood the retirement drama either. None of us knows what's going on with any of these skaters. Things change in the blink of an eye. Alina could be injured, deciding to retire, landing a quad, or changing her sport to curling as I'm typing this.
Any skaters having to deal with hate comments is just sad. It's a reality that isn't going anywhere unfortunately, but it's terrible. And it is pointless to argue who has it 'worse' because it's not a competition and all of it is horrible. In my opinion, Adelina had it worst of all just because of the sheer volume and overall destructive power, but what Zhenya & Alina went through came from a different place (home country) and probably hit differently, for different reasons. All of it was wrong.
This season is so up in the air that I think we are all frustrated. Everything is just crazy. Another paraphrased relevant quote -
"We are right in the middle of the biggest psychological experiment in history. An extraordinary situation where everyone seems to be stuck together in an elevator that sometimes goes up, sometimes down, but the doors don’t open and the help button is broken."
Imagine that the elevator is in a burning building and it kind of sums it up.
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- Oct 27, 2019
I think the defensiveness comes from these fans/posters being very young. Once they watch skating for a few years and learn to appreciate it more, they’ll learn to respect all the athletes and view the criticisms differently.
I’ve noticed there is a fan fest for praising ones favorite, and very little criticism is allowed in those individual skater threads.
I’ve noticed there is a fan fest for praising ones favorite, and very little criticism is allowed in those individual skater threads.
Sorry but the fact that Alina isn't retiring was repeated many times, by her and others, person didn't need to be a fan of hers particularly to know that, if he was interested in figure skating generally. And if he still didn't know, OK, but then let that be a lesson of not making categoric claims without necessary knowledge.
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- Mar 16, 2019
Maria surely is going to be a beautiful bride! Happy she has a good partner in her life to support her.
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It is a message board for figure skating fans. One thing everyone here has to accept is that people will predict outcomes and speculate on skaters' futures. We can't get triggered every time someone says something that we disagree with. There are much worse things you could say about someone than they might retire, or even that they should retire.
So we are actually not moving from a topic
Similarly to what I've written above, anyone is free to claim what he thinks and anyone is free to say the claim is wrong. That's all. Anyone who claims something publicly must also be prepared to meet with counterarguments. That doesn't deny the right to claim something, there is also the right to disagree and give an argument why to disagree.
A: "Skater XY retires."
B: "Skater XY doesn't retire, she confirmed that herself, she is in training process the whole time and she is even preparing the new programs."
A: "I believe in freedom and democracy."
Nice, but not a valid counterargument.
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24.9 according to wiki
I have a feeling that in Russia, Eastern Europe people grow up and become adults faster than in Western Europe. It’s just my personal observation, no scientific evidence
Someone at the age of 25 in Russia and say Austria would be at completely different stages of their lives. 25 in Austria - probably still a young boy and a student, who’s taking his time to figure out what he wants to do next in life.
25 in Russia - an full grown adult, who’s ready to put a down payment for an apartment, buy a car, already considering a family and ready to provide. Being a student until you’re 30 and depending on your parents would look hella weird in Russia, but in Germany it wouldn’t be that socially unacceptable, because a lot of people like to travel and explore their opportunities in their 20s.
Hence, probably, that’s why they marry earlier as well.
Not written to offend anyone in Europe or with any ill will
I think it’s good to take your time, if you have an opportunity for that. I also feel like Americans generally tend to grow up faster as well, they start taking responsibility for themselves really early.
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