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Any videos?
2020-21 Japanese Ladies' Figure Skating
- Thread starter AshWagsFan
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Any videos?
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Thanks so much! She looks great, love the flip loop, just like Mao!
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- Mar 21, 2018
Not as much as the most cynical fans will have you believe. Kihira’s never awarded hyperbolic bonus points; but that’s not the same as under-scoring or indifference from judges. This is a good thing because when she does score astronomically high you best believe she earned it. Propping up isn’t necessary when you take matters in your own hands. But… judges like her. Her scores are fair, easily scoring 230+ without a 3Lz and mistakes.
I expect for her to also backload the combo in the SP, but I’m hoping for a 3F+3T instead. A loop combination is more advantageous in the FS, not because of the extra points but because it unclutters her layout. I’ve noticed that she’s the only woman with a 3A that doesn’t fool around with a 2A. The only reason she was jumping 2A last season is because she couldn’t do a 3Lz. I’m also hoping for either a backloaded 3A or 3A combination. The 3A+2T was her fourth jumping pass at 4CC so I’m sure she can do this. I remember her mentioning a 3A in the second half at the beginning of last season, but that never came to be. I’m not expecting a 4T. A 4S, yes, but not a 4T. Kihira seems to make steady improvements/upgrades each season and a +3Lo, backloaded 3A, and two quads are major upgrades in a short amount of time. I’ll think she’ll go for a 1 quad/8 triple FS and work her way up to no doubles for Olympic year.
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I agree with both of these points. Other skaters are overscored at times, but Rika isn't underscored. Her scores are generally right where they should be ( with the exception of some challenger or show event like the Japan Open where scores are often completely off) Rika's point deficit last year was due to her having one less triple in her freeskate due to her injury. If she gets the same GOE she usually receives, goes clean, has 8 triples and gets the type of PCS she has been getting all last year, she will score 160+ in the FS /83 + in the sp. More if she adds the 4S and backloads one of her 3As.
If we get to see her skate this year, I hope she does an 3Feu3S or 3Aeu3S. Her Eulers are so beautiful, in stark contrast to most skaters.
I don't think a backloaded 3A is much of a change for her. It means putting one more jump before her second 3A, and she's never really had stamina problems in her jumps, so that shouldn't be too hard. Two quads and a loop combo would indeed be a lot, and i do agree that she's tended to make incremental changes. However, if the entire season doesn't go ahead, or much of it doesn't, she might well try a 4T as well due to an extended off-season. Who knows?
Besides, her absolute best shot at an Olympic gold medal (her stated aim) would probably involve landing three quads in the free; on paper, two clean programs with three triple axels and two quads should be enough against the current field, but that's a few ifs. Originally, that's what I thought she was planning; 3x3As in 2018-2019, 4S in 2019-2020, 4S, 4T in 2020-2021 and 4Sx2, 4T in 2021-2022, but I guess nothing worked out that nicely.
Question for me is, she's training a 3F-3Lo and she planned a 3F-Eu-3S last season before the injury occurred. One of these needs to be a lutz combo if she wants two FS lutzes, so I wonder which it'll be.
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I find the argument that Rika is scored fairly while other skaters may be overscored to be kind of humorous since in relative terms it flat out admits that she is underscored compared to those overscored skaters referred to, for instance when other skaters with questionable or wrong edge lutzes have them overlooked with high GOE in addition to other more generous tech calls and PCS and step sequence levels. There are so many nooks and crannies in the system to lowball the unchosen and highball the more chosen so no one area looks too conspicuous in turning the results but cumulatively it becomes decisive especially when it is codified through reputation and politically based scoring and a couple of apologists make attempts to justify the systematic underscoring either here or on Rika's fan thread while ignoring the elephant in the room. For example, Skate Canada and even more so the NHK Trophy 2019 in which Rika had more triple axels, and her placement at Worlds in Japan 2019 would have a very good chance of turning out differently if she had been scored as fairly as more generously scored skaters. Japanese skaters are always underscored relatively because of their lack of political power, especially since the most obvious underscoring precedents are often set at "home" in Japan like Worlds, Japan Open and NHK 2019 or going back to before Rika Worlds 2014.
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I think she might do 3lz3T, 3F3lo, and 3AEu3S. Actually, I just hope she does this, because the 3A Eu 3S is beautiful.
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- Mar 21, 2018
The only way she could do all that in one program without a 4T is if she does a 2A. So it’ll have to be this:
4S
3A+1Eu+3S
3Lz
2A
3A
3F+3Lo
3Lz+3T
I really don’t want to see a 2A from Kihira. And I’ll rather see a cheeky 3A+1Eu+2S (which is as much as a 3A+2T anyway) than a 3Lz+2T.
How about something like this instead:
4S
3A+2T+2T
3Lz
3S
3A
3F+3Lo
3Lz+3T
I’ll rather not see a 3A Euler until she has a 4T.
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- Sep 8, 2016
Ladies’ jump content always confuses me. I know they’re allowed 8 jumping passes, and I understand the Zayak rule, but I don’t understand all the details of the rules. Could anyone explain please?
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- Mar 21, 2018
They’re allowed seven jumping passes. The Zayak rule states that you can only repeat a maximum of two jumps. This rule applies to only quads and triples. A skater can’t repeat two types of quad, only one. Example: A free skate layout with two 4Ts and two 4S is illegal. It’s why Nathan Chen can’t do a six-quad layout any longer without a 4Lo. Also, if a skater repeats two of the exact same jump as a solo jump, then they will only receive 70% of the base value of the second jump. The second jump needs to be in combination to receive full credit. Example: 4T and 4T. The second 4T will show up as 4T+REP on a protocol and the second 4T is worth only 6.65 instead of the usual 9.5.
So, in a nutshell, the best layouts have two options: a) repeat one quad and one triple; or b) repeat two triples. In the 2018-2019 season, Kihira had the most difficult layout in the ladies field as she repeated 3A and 3Lz.
If Kihira is going for an 8-triple free skate and if she doesn’t have a 4T, readernick’s suggested layout is only possible with a 2A. Because Kihira doesn’t normally do a 2A, she doesn’t do Eulers because it’s knocking out two triples in one element. It’s why she does 3-2-2 instead.
Does that help explain the rules?
Kihira’s training +3Lo so she can get a 2 quad/8 triple layout for the Olympics. Such a layout is not possible without it. I think she’s shooting for something like this:
4T
4S
3A+1Eu+3S
3Lz
3A
3F+3Lo
3Lz+3T
Hmm. Backloading all the combinations? Maybe
4T
4S
3A+1Eu+3S
3Lz+3T
3A
3F+3Lo
3Lz
instead. I'd love to see this one, but it might be a bit much.
4S+3T
4T
4S
3A+1Eu+3S
3F-3Lo
3A
3Lz
Or, for even more style points, which is almost surely not going to happen,
4S+3T
4T
4S
3Lz
3A+1Eu+3S
3F-3Lo
3A
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- Sep 8, 2016
Thanks so much for trying to explain it to me. I’m still kinda confused but your explanation was better than reading the ISU rule book.
So, trying to understand, would a random layout like this be possible:
4toe
3loop
3flip-3toe
2A-eu-3sal
3lutz
3flip
3sal-2toe
?? Or:
4toe
3flip-3toe
3lutz
3flip-eu-3sal
2A-3toe
3loop
2A
??
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Why not this layout for Kihira:
4S
3A+3T
3Lo
3F
3A
3Lz+eu+3S
3Lz+2T
I know it still has the double toe at the end, but if executed cleanly, this can beat the tech content of kostornaia, and it can beat trusova and shcherbakova with errors (which they were both prone to last season).
4S
3A+3T
3Lo
3F
3A
3Lz+eu+3S
3Lz+2T
I know it still has the double toe at the end, but if executed cleanly, this can beat the tech content of kostornaia, and it can beat trusova and shcherbakova with errors (which they were both prone to last season).
Being overscored, underscored and scored fair are 3 different things.... Someone being "overscored" doesn't mean that someone else is automatically "underscored" just because he got lower scores. Or are you saying the person with lower scores should automatically get bonus points ( more than deserved) just because someone else got a too high score?
They're both ok, but your first layout doesn't repeat a second triple, which isn't efficient points-wise. Your second one makes a bit more sense. Of course, none of these layouts apply to Rika as she has no need for a double axel!
She could definitely do something like that, yes. I believe her original layout for last season was
4S
3A+2T
3Lz
3A
3F+Eu+3S
3Lz+3T
3Lo
With only one quad, she has to do a double jump somewhere. Technically, you can improve on the above layout, however, by putting in a double axel instead of a double toe, but it's only a marginal improvement and requires a lot more effort:
4S
3A+3T
3Lz
3A
3F+3Lo
3Lz+Eu+3S
2A
Kostornaia fiddles around with 2As because it's technically 1.8 points better to do a 2A than to do a 2T, although in her case she substitutes a 2T and a 2Lo for a Eu and a 2A, which is less than 1 point in base value. I don't like how she does three axels at the start.
If ISU actually implements the full blade takeoff rule and makes it a -3 GOE on Trusova and Scherbakova's jumps, Rika won't need a quad to beat them. She probably would still need one to consistently beat Kostornaia though.
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- Mar 5, 2014
Yes, it does because it means they have been relatively underscored which is the only term that has any significance in real competition. If a skater receives 160 for a freeskate when they should have received 150, whether through overlooked wrong triple lutz edge, ignored two footed landing, overlooked urs, inflated GOE and PCS based on political backing or status, while another skater receives 155 when they should have received 155, then the skater who was scored accurately has been relatively underscored by 10 points in comparision to the overscored skater. More importantly, the difference is decisive in placement.
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- Dec 5, 2015
This is exactly the point. Some skaters (mostly former World champions / Olympic champions in both the ladies' and mens' field) are definitely over-scored. They receive GOE and PCS that their performances/elements don't merit. Other skaters receive the benefit of the doubt on certain technical faults. However, this doesn't automatically mean that another skater (namely in this case Rika) is underscored or given fake technical calls (she doesn't receive many technical calls, because she doesn't usually deserve them) Outside of certain outlier challenger events (like the Challenge Cup) which give all skaters conservative scores, Rika is judged fairly.
Her scores this year suffered because until 4CC she didn't perform the 3Lz in competition due to injury. People who compare her scores vs. Aliona's scores at NHK need to remember that Aliona had a significantly higher base value even with the UR 3A due to the extra triple jump in the free skate, back loaded combinations, and 3Lz vs 3Lo in the short. Aliona's base value was 6 points higher than Rika's. The total difference in scores was only 8 points which was basically the BV difference plus GOE on those elements. In order to have a fair comparison of their scores, you would need Rika to perform her Challenge Cup programs (with a clean SP) vs two clean skates by Aliona at the same competition. This has never happened. I hope it will next year, because that would mean two beautiful skaters performing two clean programs at one competition. It would be incredible.
4S
3A+3T
3Lz
3A
3F+3Lo
3Lz+Eu+3S
2A
I would love to see this layout, but I don't think it will happen. The risk isn't worth the reward. However, I find Rika's 2A to be a lot more enjoyable than her 2T (which lacks height and isn't very impressive) and it would likely receive better GOE.
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- Sep 8, 2016
Hi lzxnl, again, sorry but...... I don’t understand. I have the skater repeating the 3sal and the 3flip in my random layout. That’s the two repeated triples. And the first jump is a 4toe. But that’s not efficient points-wise? Sorry, trying to better understand the rules.
Sorry. You're completely right. I missed one of the repeated triples somehow.
Although there still aren't many skaters that are repeating triple salchows! It's still better to repeat a lutz and a flip, if you can, and if you're jumping a quad but repeating 3S's, that feels funny to me, although Tursynbaeva did win a Worlds silver with three salchows...
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