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This!!
Olympics Results You Disagreed With
- Thread starter Skatesocs
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This!!
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Well since we have fallen down the rabbit hole I guess I will respond. Pandora's box is wide open and we may start the third world war with this thread.
1. Skating is in the eye of the beholder. We would all make great judges because we all are crazy, inconsistent and bias. O h sure we may say we can look at or analyze things objectively but let's face it we are skating fans with huge biases or likes and dislikes.
2. I know people will put at the top or near the top of wrong Olympic results 2014 Sotnikova over Kim but honestly it wasn't all that scandalous and the judges made the decision; no one else to blame. Sotnikova had the harder program and maybe judges got a bit tired of Yuna Kim. I personall think her programs are glorious but like before her Kwan after a while all her programs are beautiful and well executed but become ho hum.
2. Nancy Kerrigan and Oksana Baiul - technically I would give it to Nancy but artisically wich was the tie breaker I would give it to Oksana andthe judges were free to do as such and did. Besides Nancy had all the American money behind her. It was close and that means either deserved to win
3. 2002 and the scandal As skating enthusiasts/fans uber I wonder if we realize for as much as pwe shoulted and screamed for justice and changes it ultimately has not helped the sport with the media or sports world. Skating became who cares, no credibiilty and with a scoring system that changes annually very hard to understand The actual result the RUssians had some bobbles and if on the current system would lose GOE's but their other elements and pcs, skating skills were significantly better including the program and that still could have given he gold on the 6.0 system or the new system and its variations.
4. The Zhang's. The rules weren't clear and were changed after this. Of course it was tragic to see them get injured but they tried and risked a super hard move and it failed. The delay while understandable was long and should have been p enalized severely. it is n ot as though someone forced to go with the quad throw. Usually a fall like that would take you out of the running.
5. 1984 and 0r 1988 no way should Brian Orser not come home with a gold medal at least once at the olympics. Scott Hamilton was getting more "tired" asa the skates went along at the time I know life as it was had school figures worth so much but it just seems unjust that a technician and artist like Orser has no gold.
6. 1988 Katarina Witt was the darling but there were so many reasons she should have been second I realize Manley was the underdog and elated with silver unlike the bronze medallist but she deserved gold or rather Witt lost gold - so many others should have placed hegher in the short and or free. This meant Manley would have won gold. A case could also be made for Maria Butyrskaya being robbed of the bronze despite the lovefest with Chen and Chin over Ivanova in 2984 in ladies but then again if you accept Brian Orser losing then you definitely shoudl accept Chin losing. Both struggled in school figures.
7. In dance many think Bourne and Kraatz should have won bronze at the olympics,
1. Skating is in the eye of the beholder. We would all make great judges because we all are crazy, inconsistent and bias. O h sure we may say we can look at or analyze things objectively but let's face it we are skating fans with huge biases or likes and dislikes.
2. I know people will put at the top or near the top of wrong Olympic results 2014 Sotnikova over Kim but honestly it wasn't all that scandalous and the judges made the decision; no one else to blame. Sotnikova had the harder program and maybe judges got a bit tired of Yuna Kim. I personall think her programs are glorious but like before her Kwan after a while all her programs are beautiful and well executed but become ho hum.
2. Nancy Kerrigan and Oksana Baiul - technically I would give it to Nancy but artisically wich was the tie breaker I would give it to Oksana andthe judges were free to do as such and did. Besides Nancy had all the American money behind her. It was close and that means either deserved to win
3. 2002 and the scandal As skating enthusiasts/fans uber I wonder if we realize for as much as pwe shoulted and screamed for justice and changes it ultimately has not helped the sport with the media or sports world. Skating became who cares, no credibiilty and with a scoring system that changes annually very hard to understand The actual result the RUssians had some bobbles and if on the current system would lose GOE's but their other elements and pcs, skating skills were significantly better including the program and that still could have given he gold on the 6.0 system or the new system and its variations.
4. The Zhang's. The rules weren't clear and were changed after this. Of course it was tragic to see them get injured but they tried and risked a super hard move and it failed. The delay while understandable was long and should have been p enalized severely. it is n ot as though someone forced to go with the quad throw. Usually a fall like that would take you out of the running.
5. 1984 and 0r 1988 no way should Brian Orser not come home with a gold medal at least once at the olympics. Scott Hamilton was getting more "tired" asa the skates went along at the time I know life as it was had school figures worth so much but it just seems unjust that a technician and artist like Orser has no gold.
6. 1988 Katarina Witt was the darling but there were so many reasons she should have been second I realize Manley was the underdog and elated with silver unlike the bronze medallist but she deserved gold or rather Witt lost gold - so many others should have placed hegher in the short and or free. This meant Manley would have won gold. A case could also be made for Maria Butyrskaya being robbed of the bronze despite the lovefest with Chen and Chin over Ivanova in 2984 in ladies but then again if you accept Brian Orser losing then you definitely shoudl accept Chin losing. Both struggled in school figures.
7. In dance many think Bourne and Kraatz should have won bronze at the olympics,
yes!!!!
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I believe he actually wanted to do Phantom that year, but was talked out of it
And the critics do like to ignore his glorious (first +100 ever) short program, the crowning jewel of the competition, maybe because it really should have been further ahead than Patrick's good but not great one and that spoils the argument. The judges even there were giving Patrick room.
Regarding the ladies... not having a preference, I watch both Yuna and Adelina and really, I think it could fairly have gone either way, but it should have been really close.
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Much to talk about here! The relative placements of Witt/Manley are what matters for who places higher overall, and in the LP there was definitely nobody except Midori Ito to change that equation. Doesn't matter if Ito places 1st or 3rd in the LP, because ultimately Witt and Manley are only separated by 1 placement in the LP, whichever way you choose to split them. Only placing Manley 1st in the LP, and then Ito 2nd, and Witt 3rd would change the equation...but that ranking would make no sense. Ito obliterated the competition and easily deserved 1st in the LP, unless judging by some kind of outdated (even at that time period) methodology of saying Ito's jumps are less important and her presentation was too far behind both Witt and Manley (which is already a stretch, because she had great exuberance and speed, and fine skating ability and musicality). I don't see any valid argument for placing Manley ahead of Witt in the SP, so it's really only Manley who loses ground in that part of the competition, if you want to deservedly place other skaters ahead of her in the SP, but then also below Witt.
1984 - it's highly debatable how much Chin "struggled" with figures. She placed 2nd in figures at Worlds the next year, and herself said she didn't think her figures had improved much. Maybe she didn't improve much, and hadn't ever been good at figures, and the judges were holding her up as the top America lady (or maybe she had been good at them previously, but was held down)...but then that's just another example of how ridiculous and political the figures judging could be, and how there's really no way to take those placements at face value. Regardless, if Tiffany Chin had been placed 1st in both the SP and LP, she would have beaten Ivanova even with the exact figures placements they received (12th and 5th).
1998 - Lu Chen was glorious and easily wins the Bronze to me, nobody below her was even close to that level of performance and refinement. I would have placed Butyrskaya 6th in the LP. She lacked technical content, having weak landings on most of the jumps she did rotate, and the performance was cold and nervous, which can not just be written off as being "mature and sophisticated", as she tried to campaign. Slutskaya had better technical content and speed and energy. Gusmeroli had a better program than Butyrskaya and a similar level of tech content.
I'm surprised that Chen easily wins the bronze for you. Obviously it's pointless to judge past era/scoring system events by today's standards but I don't think it's wrong if I say that many of Lu Chen's jumps were landed suspiciously or just flat out under.
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There was a big drop-off in quality after the top 2 in the Nagano Ladies LP. Given that no one skated their best, it's understandable that a former world champ who skated an inspired performance would get the nod.
EDIT: Looking back at the rankings (http://www.olympedia.org/results/14189), it looks like Chen, Butyrskaya, and Slutskaya all got 3rd, 4th, and 5th place ordinals amongst them, so it was a close decision.
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She didn't have perfect jumps but that doesn't matter so much against her competition, none of them attempted a second 3Lutz like she did, and none of them landed more than 5 clean Triples. Her ethereal, emotional, embodying performance and interpretation is worth more than any nitpicking about jump rotation. The closest competitor, Slutskaya, can't possibly be scored higher than 5.7/5.7 for her program, and a 5.5/5.9 for Lu Chen beats that. Also, although Lu Chen landed that 3Toe+3Toe forwards on the second part, it was at the very end of the program and was still more exciting than just doing a 3Toe+2Toe. She doesn't deserve to be further deducted, as the current CoP system would stupidly force, simply because of the << call on a jump combo that was otherwise cleanly landed, was strong on the first jump, went with the music, and had great expression after she landed it.
More broadly speaking, the way she attempted those jumps is closer to how jumps should be. She goes UP into the air before rotating too much, which creates the most pleasing look, and there is minimal pre-rotation on her Lutz/Flip (and perfect edges), and no excessive pre-rotation on any of her other jumps. Doing a REAL Lutz is not easy. There's a reason why the competitors back then couldn't just chuck Triple-Triple combinations all over the place. Go ask modern girls to jump like that and let's see how consistent they are and how far around their landings get. Video technology and mechanical training has improved to help with jumps since decades ago, but that doesn't remove the additional difficulty they would face. When people actually do it correctly, like Yu-Na or Karen Chen or Tuktamysheva in recent times, it should be given proper credit. And big GOE's need to stop being given to people who don't do it properly.
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Under the judging back then, And the way things usually went in major competitions,
Slutskaya had a good case to actually being the winner of the SP,
Putting her out of reach for Hughes,
And seeing the judges ended up putting her above Kwan in the FS that would leave her 1st,
No matter how sloppy the FS was
(TBH i think the judges might've put Kwan ahead in the Free if this was the case
and they saw Slutskaya's about to win)
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Brian Orser for gold-1984 - if it hadn't been for figures :sad4: As much as I loved Brian B's 1988 performances, I wish there could have been 2 gold medals that night!
Midori Ito - on the podium in 1988 - if it hadn't been for figures
Elvis Stojko for gold in 1994 - I am comforted that he won Worlds the following month!
Javi Fernandez for silver in 2018 (as much as I like Shoma, I would have reversed the results)
Midori Ito - on the podium in 1988 - if it hadn't been for figures
Elvis Stojko for gold in 1994 - I am comforted that he won Worlds the following month!
Javi Fernandez for silver in 2018 (as much as I like Shoma, I would have reversed the results)
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It's serendipitous how everything worked out with the rankings to have Hughes winning. I was glad Slutskaya didn't win the SP; two years in a row at Worlds she was marked ahead of Kwan in the SP, a decision I find to be wrong (and at Olympics she also should have been behind Cohen, thankfully it happened in 2006). It's gross how 4 judges even marked her 1st in the LP, but I do wonder if the two judges who put her 2nd would have dropped her to 3rd, if that was necessary to make the Hughes victory happen because of SP rankings. If they would have flipped like that, then ironically I would have preferred them to just give Slutskaya the SP win, so that Kwan could deservedly take the Silver in the end with her better program. The hoops that need to be jumped though with ordinal judging, woof.
In my own rankings everything worked out perfectly with the ordinals, because of Cohen being 1st in the SP. It's strange how few imbalanced results I actually get when going back and ranking the performances at these competitions from the 90's and early 00's; for whatever reason it usually just doesn't happen that everyone skates well in the SP, and then in the LP someone who got buried by the rankings is the one who delivers big time over everyone else, but isn't able to move up as much as they deserve. This does seem to happen semi-frequently in the CoP era though (lots of close SP scores, and people who were ranked lower in the SP being the ones to deliver the strongest LP), hmm. Might be a psychological effect of competitors in CoP knowing they can close a point gap in the LP, whereas in 6.0 people thought their medal chance was already over.
Well, I would say the majority of her jumps were right on the edge, and only that first Toeloop was totally backwards, so it can be taken into consideration. In 6.0 terms, let's say she was at a 5.9 base mark, take off .1 for the Flip landing, .1 for the second Lutz being shaky and barely around, .1 for that last toeloop being clearly cheated, and .1 for all further consideration of underrotation in total. It really didn't detract from the impact of the program though, and that body extension and exquisite arms on the landing of the Loop were exactly what we want to see!
I agree with you, she only landed one fully backwards, just that the video I watched had clear shots of the lutzes and flip and they were fine enough, I wouldn't call those, even if not perfect (the second one really was barely around). I did doubt the loop and sal, but let them go as "benefit of doubt" because I just did not get a great (and non-music-blocked!) video for them.
Probably should've said all of that instead of just ending with "borderline" vaguely there, but maybe you disagree and would give her some other calls. Under CoP, it would just not get great GOE, but wouldn't reduce BV, if that makes sense. I agree her tech score in 6.0 should get deductions, but I just commented on whether she actually should be said to have URed her jumps, acknowledging that the rotation wasn't perfect there.
As for presentation, it is what should be getting 10s on performance and interpretation and 9 on choreography IMO, under CoP. Would be higher on choreography too had she not been so shaky on spins and some of her jumps. I really loved her 3Lo, especially how all of it was done to the music. And I agree with her 1998 bronze.
Chan didn’t even have one clean skate in Sochi. And Hanyu had two at least.
If we take out the team event performance, as we should, Chan still didn’t give one clean routine out of the two programs that made up the overall result. I think this is an objective enough assessment.
Now if you are going for reputation for the sochi cycle (your exact quote “he was one of the very best male figure skater for a while”), then we can have another debate whether Chan should have gotten the gold based on reputation over the four seasons.
But that’s not what Olympics is about, is it?
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Seven of the LP judges either had Kwan ahead of Hughes, or ranked directly behind Hughes (exceptions were judges 7 and 9, who had Slutskaya right behind Hughes). So I don't think the judges were trying to manipulate the scores to put Hughes ahead because 7 of them scored the LP in a way that would have Kwan ahead of Hughes in the final result. In other words, if they were trying to see an outcome, it didn't work out as planned (except for those two judges).
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What matters is how they ranked Slutskaya and Kwan against each other, to determine who places 2nd or 3rd in the LP. 6 of the judges sided with Slutskaya, and 4 of them had her 1st, so those 4 clearly wouldn't change their opinion. That's why I'm wondering about the 2 other judges, who both placed Slutakaya 2nd in the LP and Kwan 3rd, yet both had Slutskaya below Kwan on the second mark. It's possible they voted as such because they felt Hughes deserved to win the Gold, and that was the only way to make it happen.
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