Which are the best elements ever of each type? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Which are the best elements ever of each type?

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
If we are talking about 3As Plushenko must mention. One of his magnificient jumps was the 3A. Permanently used term by commentators' was the "perfect technic".

How it worked during his aging:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLkvLLMR45o&t=48s 14 y.o JWCH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAQSWqADK4A&t=2m5s 15 senior ECH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv2M4bCh5m4&t=8m45s 18 y.o. after more than 8 minutes entertaning of the audience

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ieMEfklmuI&t=1m15s Torino 24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nX05r0KGV4&t=2m5s at Vancouver 27.y.o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX6s8tRPP7Y&t=53s -30 y.o ECH 2012

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KVYqeDbX0g&t=30s 33y.o in 2015 his last 3A at competition, Medal Winners Open
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Now regarding the quad combos:
1. best 4Lz-3T - Alexander Samarin
2. best 4F-3T - Nathan Chen
3. best 4S-3T - Maxim Kovtun
4. best 4T-3T - Yuzuru Hanyu
best quad-euler combo:
5. 4T-eu-3F - Yuzuru Hanyu
Best 3A-3T is also Yuzuru Hanyu. I can't recall someone did good 4Lo combo :biggrin:
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
Now regarding the quad combos:
1. best 4Lz-3T - Alexander Samarin
Yes, Samarin's 4Lz+3T is the most integrated into his programs, I agree :yes:

If we are talking about 3As Plushenko must mention. One of his magnificient jumps was the 3A. Permanently used term by commentators' was the "perfect technic".

How it worked during his aging:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLkvLLMR45o&t=48s 14 y.o JWCH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAQSWqADK4A&t=2m5s 15 senior ECH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv2M4bCh5m4&t=8m45s 18 y.o. after more than 8 minutes entertaning of the audience

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ieMEfklmuI&t=1m15s Torino 24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nX05r0KGV4&t=2m5s at Vancouver 27.y.o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX6s8tRPP7Y&t=53s -30 y.o ECH 2012

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KVYqeDbX0g&t=30s 33y.o in 2015 his last 3A at competition, Medal Winners Open

I love that you took the time to compile this list :gclap:
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Yes, Samarin's 4Lz+3T is the most integrated into his programs, I agree :yes:

It is not better nor worse integrated comparing to the quad combos of other skaters. At RC 2019 it certainly deserves +4 GOE as a whole, and i think a lot of judges went with +5 GOE even!
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
I will start with men quadruple (and 3A) jumps in recent history based on quality of the jump defined by ISU GOE points:
1. best 4Lz - Nathan Chen WC 2019 FP - 4 GOE
2. best 4F - Nathan Chen GPF 2018 FP - 4 GOE
3. best 4Lo - Yuzuru Hanyu GPF 2019 FP - 4 GOE
3. best 4S - Yuzuru Hanyu FCC 2020 SP - 4.5 GOE
4. best 4T - Yuzuru Hanyu RC 2018 FP - 4.5 GOE
5. best 3A - Yuzuru Hanyu SC 2019 SP - 5 GOE
I see people prefer Kolayda and Jin 4Lz, but Nathan 4Lz's seems better integrated in the programme, so he has an edge for me... Kolayda 4Lz at Cup of China is fairly telegraphed and a little wild in the air, so it can get max +3 GOE...

First of all, not telegraphed at all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGPhymzFSfo - two steps into it are fairly quick, and the rest doesn't seem like a lutz entrance.
Second of all, I wouldn't call it wild. I'd call it "perfectly straight in the air" - which you never see in a quad which is why it is tricky on the mind.
I agree Nathans is nice and integrated into the program, but that doesn't make the jump quality better. (Yes you can get more GOE, but we're talking about the best elements - not necessarily the best within a program.
Now regarding the quad combos:
1. best 4Lz-3T - Alexander Samarin
2. best 4F-3T - Nathan Chen
3. best 4S-3T - Maxim Kovtun
4. best 4T-3T - Yuzuru Hanyu
best quad-euler combo:
5. 4T-eu-3F - Yuzuru Hanyu
Best 3A-3T is also Yuzuru Hanyu. I can't recall someone did good 4Lo combo :biggrin:

https://youtu.be/PYudrVEQzhc?t=74 - was this not a candidate for best 4S+3T. I don't understand how Kovtun's could be better?

In terms of 4Lz, discounting the technique arguments with PR and full blade - objectively it has a flat or even sometimes an inside edge, so I don't know how it could win in this category. especially compared to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYIxKbsbAxM
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
First of all, not telegraphed at all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGPhymzFSfo - two steps into it are fairly quick, and the rest doesn't seem like a lutz entrance.

If you watch from the beginning of the video where you can see the whole programme - not just that part you quoted, you can conclude that from the moment the program started till 4Lz happened - as the first element, nothing really happened in his skate or body expression in relation to the programme. From the start of the programme, you can see the 4Lz coming. Jump per se is very good, but taking all into account, i think Nathan produced one better 4Lz.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
If you watch from the beginning of the video where you can see the whole programme - not just that part you quoted, you can conclude that from the moment the program started till 4Lz happened - as the first element, nothing really happened in his skate or body expression in relation to the programme. From the start of the programme, you can see the 4Lz coming. Jump per se is very good, but taking all into account, i think Nathan produced better 4Lz in his career.

That was bad choreography rather than telegraphed entrance - he deserved much better choreography considering his amazing skating skills. I wouldn't blame that on telegraphed entrance - as I think with better choreography this could be disguised.
Take Sergei Voronov's 3A. No matter who choreographs his program it still is telegraphed. It still looks the same. It's part of his jump.
Take Kolyada 4Lz from WTT 2017: https://youtu.be/8TNgy2_M2go?t=41 . Still can see a little before he's going for it, but I wouldn't call it "telegraphed".
Nathan has produced good quality linear quad lutzes, but none with the same height and beauty in my opinion.


EDIT:
Here's one he landed un-telegraphed - this was One of the 2 4Lz he landed in free program which had less telegraphed choreography: https://youtu.be/jqQ1eGw7RnI?t=27
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
That was bad choreography rather than telegraphed entrance - he deserved much better choreography considering his amazing skating skills. I wouldn't blame that on telegraphed entrance - as I think with better choreography this could be disguised.

Yeah, maybe it is a choreography problem, but that still take away from the beauty of the jump a little bit, at least for me.
Sadly, i can't find the video of Kovtun 4S-3T from his SP Russian nationals at 2019, which is the quad sal combo i was talking about. There is only his video of Winter Universiade SP, and it was done fairly well there - to me is better on exit than Javier who couldn't keep his free foot long enough in the video you provided, you can check.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Yeah, maybe it is a choreographic problem, but it still take away from the beauty of the jump a little bit, at least to me.
Sadly, i can't find the video of Kovtun 4S-3T from his SP Russian nationals at 2019, which is the quad sal combo i was talking about. There is only his video of Winter Universiade SP, and it was done fairly well there - to me is better on exit than Javier who couldn't keep his free foot long enough in the video you provided, you can check.

Just found the kovtun Universiade one - are you referring to the SP?
I agree It was a lovely combination, the only disadvantage is the posture is a little worse on takeoff but overall a perfectly executed jump.
Javi's was smoother, but he didn't hold the landing long enough (I assume also choreography, but maybe also not mentally focusing on it enough).

I'd be happy to tie them for joint 1st.
 

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
i mainly watch ladies so this is probably not going to be diverse across disciplines

quads in general- Yuzu, Nathan, Kolyada's 4Lz

4T- Kamila Valieva 2020 Junior Worlds FS
https://youtu.be/D_mkOsuBiCo?t=91
speed into it, huge jump, good air position, effortless, great flow on the landing. so beautiful.

3A- Aliona Kostornaia 2020 Russian Nationals SP
https://youtu.be/HShJwyvMReQ?t=2741
same as Kamila's quad toe. it's so effortless it doesn't look like an ultra si jump.

3Lz- Yuna Kim
https://youtu.be/1_B_tupl-n8
i have no idea which competition this came from, but i don't think i can really pick just one because all of them are as good as the rest.
speed, clear outside edge, great air position, good flow on the landing. she was the lutz queen.

3F- Alena Kostornaia
https://youtu.be/rs03IbmFjGQ?t=119
i really think she has the best flip out of any lady. she flies into it and its HUGE, not to mention the command and control she has over the jump. the entire combo with the 3T probably covers about 1/4 the width of the ice surface.

3L- Ashley Wagner 2014 Olympics FS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-lPViRwxuY
the loop was probably her best jump. she has great technique on it, really nice lift, air time, and position and is very secure on the landing.

skipping 3T because hardly anyone does it as a solo jump

3S- Evgenia Medvedeva
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0k-_8uS6ZI
this one was in practice. she's always had a good salchow but i think it got even better after switching to Brian. she uses her upper body least on this jump and gets huge height on it.

2A- Aliona Kostornaia
https://youtu.be/iqHMbhwTa4Y?t=278
the 3A queen also reigns over the 2A. so easy it looks like a single.

queens of all spins- Alissa Czisny, Kamila Valieva, Yulia Lipnitskaia

https://youtu.be/hRkTiBQh_TY?t=103
https://youtu.be/D_mkOsuBiCo?t=245
https://youtu.be/ke0iusvydl8?t=238

honorable mentions- Alina Zagitova and Mirai Nagasu

https://youtu.be/zYh8q4qBjlg?t=56
https://youtu.be/7yu_qBLGELI?t=104
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Now, with the ladies (i won't discuss quads, because only two senior ladies jump them). So, triple-triple combos:
1. best 3Lz-3T - Yuna Kim WC 2010 LP
2. best 3F-3T - Evgenia Medvedeva WTT 2017
3. best 3S-3T - Evgenia Medvedeva WTT 2017
4. best 3T-3T - Gabby Daleman WC 2018
5. best 3x-3Lo - Alina Zagitova JO
Best 3A goes to Alena Kostornia. Best triple jump for me is Alina Zagitova 3F in SP at Olympics.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Now, with the ladies (i won't discuss quads, because only two senior ladies jump them):
1. best 3Lz-3T - Yuna Kim WC 2010 LP
2. best 3F-3T - Evgenia Medvedeva WTT 2017
3. best 3S-3T - Evgenia Medvedeva WTT 2017
4. best 3T-3T - Gabby Daleman WC 2018
5. best 3x-3Lo - Alina Zagitova JO
Best 3A goes to Alena Kostornia. Best triple jump is Alina Zagitova 3F in SP at Olympics, +5 GOE for me.

I might give 3F+3T to kostornia too.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
Does anybody have an opinion about which throw triple loop is the best? I think the best ones on the senior circuit are usually from Tarasova/Morozov, but I think Panfilova/Rylov have even better ones (they were still juniors until last season). Peng and Jin also have a nice one. Point me to the best one though! :biggrin:
 

SkateSkates

Medalist
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Aliona Kostornaia - 3A 2020 Russian Nationals SP
Yuna Kim - 3Lz+3T 2013 Worlds LP
Yulia Lipnitskaia - CCoSp 2014 Sochi team event SP
Kaori Sakamoto - 3Lo 2019 Worlds SP
Mao Asada - SpSq 2010 Olympics LP
Aliona Kostornaia - 3F+3T 2020 Euros LP (or 2019 NHK SP, but Euros wins out for me due to the perfect musical timing)
Wakaba Higuchi - ChSq 2018 Worlds LP
Kaetlyn Osmond - 3F+3T 2018 Olympics LP
Aliona Kostornaia - 2A 2019 Russian Nationals SP/LP
Satoko Miyahara - LSp, almost any competition (the centering!)
Mao Asada - 2012/13 LP StSq and 2013/14 SP Stsq, almost any competition
I want to add Kaori’s 3F+3T to the list but often times she lands too close to the boards which ruins the run out of the landing :/ Maybe her 3F+3T from the Olympics
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
4t and 4t-3t : definitely patrick's.... not sure why some see otherwise....

3f-3t osmond for sure... the height is incredible

steps : patrick as well.

4lutz... i wouldn't pick boyang : he jumps with his head tilted backwards.. i don't like that.... so probably nathan

3a, definitely han yan though for having seen keegan live, his is quite impressive.

spins : lambiel
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Does anybody have an opinion about which throw triple loop is the best? I think the best ones on the senior circuit are usually from Tarasova/Morozov, but I think Panfilova/Rylov have even better ones (they were still juniors until last season). Peng and Jin also have a nice one. Point me to the best one though! :biggrin:

I remember how T/M for their throw 3Lo in SP at WC 2019 got +5 GOE across the board (and the stats japanese tv provided about the throw jumps, as height, distance, and speed out of the jump were the best for it, taking all 3 categories in the account). I never saw any other throw jump getting all max GOEs from the judges, so you can say that is the best throw jump ever produced in terms of 'quality'.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
4t and 4t-3t : definitely patrick's.... not sure why we see otherwise....

3f-3t osmond for sure... the height is incredible

steps : patrick as well.

4lutz... i wouldn't pick boyang : he jumps with his head tilted backwards.. i don't like that.

3a, definitely han yan though for having keegan live, his is quite impressive.

spins : lambiel


The reason Boyang has head tilted backwards is so that he is straight(er) in the air and so that he has better landing posture - its a common technique (which I think Nathan Chen does on some jumps).

Patrick does lovely 4T and 4T+3T, but others do more steps into it sometimes so thats why. I'd put Hanyu and Patrick chans 4T on similar level. I'd put Kolyada semi on that level, as Kolyada has amazing 4T, but he doesn't have as good entrance into the 4T.

Agree Han yan 3A, Keegan also good 3A (but entrance posture / mechanism not my favourite).

Steps - Agree with Patrick. For old fashioned steps I'd nominate Lambiel.

I also would throw Osmond into the 3F+3T ring.
 
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