Which are the best elements ever of each type? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Which are the best elements ever of each type?

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
I really want to see some more steps people consider the best.
.

I included only Step Sequences, not other types of steps. In random order!

Best StSq (men):
1. Daisuke Takahashi SP NHK 2013
2. Denis Ten FP 4CC 2015
3. Javier Fernandez SP WC 2017
4. Patrick Chen FP GPF 2015
5. Yuzuru Hanyu SP GPF 2017

Best StSq (ladies):
1. Carolina Kostner SP EC 2018
2. Evgenia Medvedeva FP WC 2017
3. Carolina Kostner FP WC 2014
4. Mao Asada FP JN 2016
5. Akiko Suzuki SP 2013
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
I don't agree with any of Zagitova's Flips being that great (which is what Blades was implying) but I am grateful you at least tried to stick to the topic lol.
That particular flip is judged with all max GOE by the judges, as Kaori's loop i suggested (but in the -5/+5 system). It is probably the best scored ladies single jumping element in the -3/+3 era. And you were saying that we need to try to be objective ;) (Now I personally prefer rippon arms positions more than regular arms positions, so that was the 'subjective' reason, i admit, but the only one. For me personally, the best triple jump is Adam Rippons 3Lz with both arms above the head when i first time saw it, so..)
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I was being fairly specific - it is triple Flip by Alina in short program at Olympics. It checked literally all the bullet points.

The "bullet points" are NOT the sole way to judge jumps. They are mere guidelines, and she did not check all of those either! Her Flip lacked both height and distance. It did not rotate fully in the air, not even close, it's clear how the jump came down early and finished on the ice at the end! It did not have the best outflow, and her posture was debateably not ideal either, and there was no special timing to the music. If it was judged as +3 by all of the judges, which I must have immediately rolled my eyes at and forgotten about, because of the sheer horror of it, then that just shows how completely clueless the judges are. It was a +1 GOE element.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
The jump doesn't need to be the highest and longest one to get the max GOE, or to look 'the best'. There is no any reason for literally all the judges to misjudge the quality of the jump and give +3 instead of +1 for it. That kind of misjudgment you are suggesting is even not realistically possible. Also, they could reward any of other jumps of more famous skater at that time with +3 across the board, but they didn't. And i'm perfectly aware that jump doesn't need to literally check all the bullet points to get the max GOE across the board. As Gabby 3T-3T for example. But other than Gabby's 3T-3T, no other jump/combo got it, so....
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
That kind of misjudgment you are suggesting is even not realistically possible.

Yes it is realistically possible, it happens all the time. And a jump does need to have among the best amplitude to get max GOE in my book, but regardless, her jump does not even fulfill the description on paper of "good height and distance" to qualify for that bullet point. There is the lack of rotation on it too, which is listed in the -GOE section, to counterbalance against positive GOE aspects.

I'm perfectly aware that jump doesn't need to literally check all the bullet points to get the max GOE across the board.

You said "it checked literally all the bullet points." That is incorrect.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
That particular jump checked all of them. Including good height and distance. Ask the ISU. I really don't need to explain anything to anyone who claims that literally all the judges in the panel were wrong that much.
So happy 5000th post to me. I'm going to celebrate now :cheer: :peace:
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
That particular jump checked all of them. Including good height and distance.

It was too small of a jump, it did not "match the musical structure", it did not have a "creative or difficult" entry, it did not have "good extension or creative exit" on the landing, and it debateably did not have "good flow from entry to exit", or even "effortless throughout".

The only bullet points on paper that are undebatable are "clear recognizable steps preceding element" and "varied position in the air".

Stop saying to "ask the ISU", there is no communication from them whatsoever that this jump hit every point possible, and even that wouldn't mean everyone agrees with whichever people voted on such a thing. Not to mention the GOE guidelines keep changing, and this thread is talking about an objective analysis of jumps, not some stupid and limited definition on paper.
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Ladies. Historically, Midori Ito, Yuna Kim and Harding would take almost all the spots for solo triples and -3T combos, Mao and Cohen all the spins and spirals. So i'll only name current ladies:

2A - Wakaba Higuchi (2017 cup of China FS)
3T - Kostner (2017 rostelecom FS. Not that it was superb but it's the only one i can recall)
3S - Mai Mihara (2017 cup of china FS)
3lo - Kaori Sakamoto (2018 SA FS)
3F - Rika Kihira (2019 skate Canada fs)
3Lz - Elizaveta Tuktamysheva (2015 euros fs) / Nana Araki (jgp Riga sp)
3A - Kostornaya (2019 rusnats sp)

2A-3T - Tursynbaeva (universiade) / Tomoe Kawabata (2019 nats)
3T-3T - Daleman (2017 worlds sp)
3S-3T - Tursynbaeva (2019 worlds sp)
3lo-3T - Marin Honda (2016 JWC FS)
3F-3T - Kostornaya (2019 Finlandia trophy)
3lz-3T - Tarakanova (2018 Rusnats fs) / Tomoe Kawabata (2020 JPN nats SP)
3A-3T - Rika Kihira (2017 JPN nats)
3A-2T: Kihira (2019 nhk fs)

2A-3lo - i can't believe no one landed it.
3T-3lo - No one
3S-3lo - Shiraiwa (2016 jwc fs)
3lo-3lo - Nugumanova (2016 jgpf fs) / Matsuda (2017 JPN nats)
3F-3lo - Trusova (2017 jgpf sp) / Rion Sumiyoshi (jgp Richmond)
3lz-3lo - Zagitova (olympics fs) / Wakaba Higuchi (jgp Zagreb)

2A-euler-3S - Karen Chen (2017 worlds)
2A-euler-3F - Vasilieva (2017 junior nats fs)
3F-euler-3F - Sakhanovich (2016 rusnats)
3F-euler-3S - Ting Cui (2019 jwc)
3lz-euler-3S - You (2020 4cc)
3lz-euler-3F - Kurakova

2A-3T-2T - Yuhana Yokoi (2018 nats) / Kaori Sakamoto (2019 jwc)
3lz-3T-2T - Tsurskaya (2015 jgpf)

4T-Valieva (2020 junior nats)
4S - Trusova (Japan open)
4F- Trusova (2019 jpgf)
4lz - Trusova (2020 Skate Canada)

There are too many positions and similar quality, i can't choose the best Lsp, CCosp or FCCosp, so:

Layback - Satoko/Arkhipova/Chen/An
Biellman - Lozko/Iwano/Valieva
Camel - Bradie/Bell
Sit spin - Satoko/Alina
Illusion - Alina

Chsq - Kaori in the piano / Wakaba in Wakabond/Mai in the mission (1st version)
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
and this thread is talking about an objective analysis of jumps, not some stupid and limited definition on paper.

And i assume you are the one who holds the objectivity, not that stupid paper. Sorry, but you are exactly that type of a person i don't need to spend my time with on this forum.
 

randomfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
I'll post other elements later, but if we're talking 3S-3T, I think some of the best (and very underrated) ones come from Soyoun Park :agree2:. Perhaps she could've had more transitions, but the quality is still amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tLpjMe7mOU&t=60 (yes it's Tara speaking, but what she says here is very true)

Here's another one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCU-prVFMa4&t=68

The same goes for her 2A-3T:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJhB_bqmeI0&t=76
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAnmJkliYTM&t=68
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INzWgq8pzQI&t=46 (the 3T here was called UR so maybe not the best, but look at the crazy distance she covers :shocked:)
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Men:

2A - No one
3T - :laugh:
3S - No one
3lo - No one
3F - Julian Yee / Matteo Rizzo
3lz - Yuzuru (2015 nhk)
3A - Yuzuru (Yolo 3A at 2017 4cc)
4T - Yuzuru (2014 gpf fs).
4S - Yuzuru (2014 gpf fs, 2015 gpf sp)
4lo - Yuzuru (2017 WC fs)
4F - Chen (worlds 2018 fs)
4lz - Boyang (2017 WC FS)

3A-3T - Yuzuru (2014 gpf)
4T-3T - Yuzuru (2015 gpf sp)
4S-3T - Yuzuru (2017 WC fs)
4F-3T - Chen
4lz-3T - Boyang (2017 WC SP)

3A-euler-3S - Yuzuru (2015 gpf)
3A-euler-3F - Shoma (2017 WC)
4T-euler-3S - Yuzuru
4T-euler-3F - Yuzuru
 

herro

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 17, 2009
I actually really like Michelle Kwan's 3T-3T combos, especially earlier on in her career. Loved the distance and the flowing edge that she usually got in between and after the jumps. The only criticism I'd have is that she sometimes did more of a toe walley for the first jump (off the inside edge), but in terms of overall aesthetics and athleticism, I'd put that combo near the top when comparing against other skaters' 3T-3Ts.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
And i assume you are the one who holds the objectivity, not that stupid paper.

I've given plenty of reasons and examples. I even explained to you why it was wrong explicitly going by those rules on paper, that you think are the only criteria of judging everything about skating. You can either choose to learn and see the comparisons and details, or just keep thinking everything the judges do is infallible, even when they have been explicitly proven wrong.
 

cohen-esque

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
There is no any reason for literally all the judges to misjudge the quality of the jump and give +3 instead of +1 for it. That kind of misjudgment you are suggesting is even not realistically possible. Also, they could reward any of other jumps of more famous skater at that time with +3 across the board, but they didn't.

I mean. According to the judges, this 3Lz is tied for the best ever, in terms of GOE.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
I mean. According to the judges, this 3Lz is tied for the best ever, in terms of GOE.

In -5/+5 system one of Rikas lutz is judged as the lutz with best quality. Now i think how that jump you posted is perfectly fine in all parts of it in terms of quality, except the take off (which all the judges couldnt see properly in real time, or they didnt want to because it is a WTT competition after all, but judges who judged it with +2 obviously did right. If the tech panel put ! on it, the quality of the jump will drop to all as max +2, but they didnt, so...) But with a better take off, it can be the one of the best 3 Lz, dont you think :)
 

cohen-esque

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Im pretty sure Rika got more for hers. As some of other skaters did, but in -5/+5 system one of Rikas lutz is judged as the lutz with best quality. I also think how that jump is perfectly fine in all the parts of it, except the take off. So only with a better take off, it can be the best 3 Lz :)
Best jump ever under +/-3 GOE system, I should clarify.
 

icybear

Medalist
Joined
Mar 18, 2017
Best Quad Lutz - Boyang 2017 Worlds fs. Gorgeous running edge
Best triple lutz - Kim Yuna
Best triple axel / double axel - Alena
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
But with a better edge, it can be the one of the best 3 Lz, dont you think :)

I don't see it as one of the best even if her edge was correct. She doesn't get high enough on it and she isn't all the way around in the air, not even considering how she does a half-turn on the takeoff with the toepick, instead of vaulting into the air straight back from the toepick. She does have the arm position, but so did Brian Boitano, and he jumped higher and didn't cheat his rotation at all.
 
Top