Non Controversial Olympic Wins | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Non Controversial Olympic Wins

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
:confused: You're talking about Asada's 3F<-2Lo-2Lo in LP at Vancouver, right?

Yup.
I don't think she had a 3F-3Lo in 2010. She tried the layout you mentioned in 2014, and while it didn't work at the Olympics, she won Worlds that year with 3A, 3F-3Lo, 3Lz and set a world record with it iirc.

3A, 3F, 3lo-2lo

Yeah which to me was an example of bad rules (still a thing in juniors sadly), cause 3A is a much harder element than a 3Ltz and as happened other times before and after, judges should have rewarded Mao for attempting an element no one else had.

With the 3A allowed as solo element, she could have gone for the 3flip-3lo but again maybe judges would have called the underrotation as they did with Miki Ando's lutz-loop, considering somehow Mao got negative GOE on the solo 3F which was cleanly landed.

That's why i think she wouldn't have won even with the 2008 gpf sp and 2007 gpf fs layouts. Tech panels usually had eyes for her and when they hadn't, judges had, since they were finding ways to give her negative GOEs for clean jumps.

The GOEs gap with Kim was generally too big.
 

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Plushy's win in 2006 was expected and well deserved. Loved everything about his performances.
 

Reddi

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 16, 2018
Even 35.9-36.4 seems way too high. I'd say max 32-33.
...I know everyone loves her DQ program because of how the jumps are impressively timed with the music, but it's problematic when that appears to be the only purpose the layout is serving. Landing all jumps on the music during an upbeat section is great and all, but there really doesn't seem to be any artistic reasoning for making the program like that beyond just backloading and finding a way for people to forget how it makes the program so unbalanced.

I would have never thought that one day this forum will make me spit out my drink:drama:

GO. WATCH. THE. DON. QUIXOTE. BALLET.

I would have also like to see the exact quote from the ISU regulations that apply the concept of "balanced program" to the order of the elements but I know it's fruitless.
 

Jontor

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Country
Sweden
Non controversial (imo) beginning with 1992:

Men - 1992, 1994, 1998, 2006, 2014, 2018
Ladies - 1994, 1998, 2010, 2014, 2018
Pairs - 1992, 1994. 1998, 2006, 2014, 2018
Dance - 1992, 1998, 2006, 2010, 2018

Most controversial to me is Ladies 2002 where Slutskaya was the clear winner imo.
 

Zora

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
I would have never thought that one day this forum will make me spit out my drink:drama:

GO. WATCH. THE. DON. QUIXOTE. BALLET.

I would have also like to see the exact quote from the ISU regulations that apply the concept of "balanced program" to the order of the elements but I know it's fruitless.
I don't see the connection between her first three jumps and the actual ballet? They could have also been placed earlier in the program.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Men: 1998, 2006

Kulik in 1998 was a very deserved win, but his 1st place in the SP was a bit fishy. He clearly traveled during his last spin and finished a little behind the music, which probably should have been enough to put him below Stojko (who had a more complex program, well performed) and also Eldredge, who had an advantage on spins and should benefit from that in the SP with the technical mark being the tiebreaker and the jumps being the same.

Plushenko in 2006, again deserved win, but totally frontloaded programs and basic transitions, with a couple noticeably lackluster spots in the LP where he is tired and just going through the motions. He should have been vulnerable to losing to the other guys if they skated cleaner, but the judges' scores said that wouldn't happen.
 

Jontor

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Country
Sweden
I thought both Alina and Zhenya performed brilliantly and I love Zhenya but I still fail to see why some think Alina's win was controversial.

She had a higher BV and skated like a boss. The performance itself was charming. She was given lower PCS in both SP and LP. There was nothing hokey going on. She won it fair and square.

I get why some feel Zhenya deserved to win and her performance was amazing but Alina's win certainly wasn't doctored up to favor Alina. Had she not saved her lutzloop with ninja precision she would have lost it.

I'm glad Alina backloaded all her jumps. It was revolutionary, she nailed it and in my eyes she'll always be the special bad@ss who did all her jumps in the second half, nailed them and won the gold.

Yes that Ninja 3Lz+3Lo save is one of the most fantastic olympic moments of all time for me. I truly thought she lost it when she failed to do the 3Lo at the beginning - but oh no, she had the guts and determination to get that 3Lo back in, and it was perfect too. Loved it! Like Tara said, "That's an olympic skate!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P62mb7rTyEQ
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Plushy's win in 2006 was expected and well deserved. Loved everything about his performances.

IMO, his performances left much to be desired as he sacrificed performance/choreo to get the job done, but technically he was miles ahead of anyone in the competition and had no challengers. He didn't even bother to do his final FS pose and was just kinda like, "There, I landed everything. Got through the program. Did quads, axels, and miscellaneous elements. Gold, please." Definitely a non-controversial win but it's exactly like Totmianina/Marinin winning the 2006 gold - so deserved but so clinical and unexciting. Arakawa was kinda the opposite - artistically exquisite but played it safe and got the job done even though she was capable of much greater difficulty, and also a non-controversial win.

Of course, it's not Plu's or T/M's fault that their competitors didn't perform under pressure, but I really wish 2006 had been won by an in-form Lambiel or Shen/Zhao who were much more well-rounded and had way better programs. Then again, the Olympics are a sport so at least clean skaters won, fair and square.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
It was rude because she was apparently the only one in top 6 FS with an underrotated jump.
Given that almost everyone in top 15 FS had a true lutz, maybe she should have tried 3lz too. She probably wouldn't have get an "e" call...

Care to point out who else you think should have been called on underrotated jumps?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Plushenko in 2006, again deserved win, but totally frontloaded programs and basic transitions, with a couple noticeably lackluster spots in the LP where he is tired and just going through the motions.

I think that's the point. Plushenko was so far ahead of everyone else that even that sleep-walker of a program won handily without any serious rival.

IMO, his performances left much to be desired as he sacrificed performance/choreo to get the job done, but technically he was miles ahead of anyone in the competition and had no challengers. He didn't even bother to do his final FS pose and was just kinda like, "There, I landed everything. Got through the program. Did quads, axels, and miscellaneous elements. Gold, please."

I agree with this assessment. He got through the program and was on a different astral plane from everyone else.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
He was still overscored though, and that makes it somewhat controversial I'd say, especially since these point gaps are so important in CoP. He didn't deserve to be over 10 points ahead of everyone after the SP, and a lead like that allows laziness in the LP, as does knowing the judges won't punish you for weak transitions. I think Lambiel with a 3Axel should have won that SP, and in terms of the points he only lost 4.2 for doing a 2Axel instead. So how was he 11.6 points behind?
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
The GOEs gap with Kim was generally too big.

The points rewarding system was just poorly made back than, and that's why they changed it after the Olympics. And do you know how they came to the conclusion the points system is wrong. They just factored Yuna components with the ones it was used to factor men components and realize that in their system Yuna would also win men free program, not just without a quad, but without a triple axel and also without aditional jumping element in the programme. So yeah, it was all about GOE back then, i mean, too much about it. And as a reaction, they made Base Value more important after that Olympics.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I would have never thought that one day this forum will make me spit out my drink:drama:

GO. WATCH. THE. DON. QUIXOTE. BALLET.

I would have also like to see the exact quote from the ISU regulations that apply the concept of "balanced program" to the order of the elements but I know it's fruitless.

This program by John Curry is regarded as the gold standard for interpreting Don Quixote on ice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z79TMsYRnEc&t=9s

The term "balanced program" as used in ISU documents refers to the list of scored elements: 7 jumps, 4 spins, etc. -- if you fulfill this list, you have presented a "balanced program."

The term that the ISU uses for describing the placement of jumps throughout the program is "highlight distribution." If you notice on the judges' protocols down at the bottom, the language is, xCredit for highlight distribution." It is not, for instance, "second half bonus," although this language is used as an informal description by figure skating announcers, etc.

The history is something like this. Back in John Curry's day, skaters designed their programs to include jumps and spins throughout. (Sometimes it got a little formulaic: start out with 4 jumps, then rest for a while during the "slow part," then do 4 more jumps.)

As skaters started doing triples instead of doubles, stamina became an issue. Skaters increasingly placed all their jumps at the beginning when their legs were fresh. This "front-loading" became so aggressive that the ISU decided to encourage a better "distribution" of "highlight elements," not just all bunched up at the beginning, which they felt to be unaesthetic and unsatisfying for the audience. They addressed the issue by putting the bonus clause in the scoring rules.

They didn't anticipate -- maybe they should have -- that sooner or later skaters would come along with extraordinary stamina and would backload everything. When this happened, they could see that the eventual result would be to replace frontloading with backloading as more and more skaters said, hey, I can do that! So they backed off to the current rule. The goal was to reward skaters who have the stamina to do hard jumps throughout the program, not just at the beginning, while at the same time encouraging a "distribution" of technical highlights.

A skater can still put the majority of the jumps in the second half if there is a musical or choreographic reason for doing so. But she will not automatically get more points than the skater whose choreography and musical interpretation call for jumps sprinkled here and there throughout.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
He was still overscored though, and that makes it somewhat controversial I'd say, especially since these point gaps are so important in CoP. He didn't deserve to be over 10 points ahead of everyone after the SP, and a lead like that allows laziness in the LP, as does knowing the judges won't punish you for weak transitions. I think Lambiel with a 3Axel should have won that SP, and in terms of the points he only lost 4.2 for doing a 2Axel instead. So how was he 11.6 points behind?

It was more than 4.2 for the axel as you need to consider GOE. Plushenko got 9.36 for his 3A, Lambiel got 3.87 for his 2A. That’s 5.49 points. Not to mention the PCS generally takes a bit of a hit if a program’s difficulty is reduced and 3A to 2A is optics-wise not a wise move, unless your 3A is really failing you.

Although, Lambiel is talented at transitions and really could/should have done more with that 2A to up the GOE on it and make it look more intended - he rode the edge in looking like he was setting up for a 3A but then mistakenly turned it into a double. A more seamless 2A (like some of the ones Jason Brown does) would have gotten him ahead of Weir in the SP.

The 4T+3T was also tight on the 3T landing (Plushenko outscored him by 1.43 points there) and even the 3Z wasn’t effortless.

Lambiel doing a 3A and a better 4T would have gotten him about 7 points. Can’t really play the what if game though because then Buttle with a better SP (or even a 3L instead of a 2L in the FS) could have taken silver, or Weir could have if he skated to his ability, etc.

Plushenko’s scoring was crazy high (not just PCS but footwork and spins too) so the gap shouldn’t have been that big, but Lambiel needed everything else perfect in his SP to hang with Plushenko and it wasn’t. Not that it even mattered. Plushenko was blah but very solid - I think a more controversial winner (moreso than Lysacek not attempting a quad) would have been Lambiel (even with quads) not even attempting a triple axel in either program which would be unheard of for a men’s Olympic champion, dating back to who knows when.
 

Osmond4gold

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
To this day I firmly believe that Kaetlyn Osmond should have won in 2018. She was handicapped from the start because everyone went in with the assumption that the battle for gold was between the two Russians and she was never truly considered.

I also argue that Carolina Kostner should have been the rightful gold medallist in 2014, with Kim second and Sotnikova third. Kim was good, and certainly deserved to win in 2010, but in 2014 Kostner had the magic.

I realize both of these are unpopular opinions. For the purposes of this thread, I'm astonished that anyone would suggest Zagitova's win wasn't controversial. Even if you disagree with me, there was a very loud contingent who argue to this day that Medvedeva should have won gold in 2018. And of course 2014 ladies is one of the most hotly debated results in history.

Totally agree here, Rain. Just as in 1988 (which was suppose to to be the Battle of the Carmen's) what the heck do judges do when Manley outperforms their pre-determined placements and predictions? "Who saw this coming", said so many after 2018 Ladies Worlds. For the record, check my predictions on GS as I did!

If the Olympic moto is to be "Faster, Higher, Stronger", than Kaetlyn was denied. To suggest that the 2018 OG wasn't controversial esp. after the SP results, is to be naive as the judging was in '88.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
... to be naive as the judges were in '88.

I don't think we can fault the judges in 1988. Elizabeth Manley rightly won the free skate, and 7 of the 9 judges agreed that she was the best.

But she was behind both Katarina Witt and Debi Thomas in both figures and the short program,so winning the LP would not have been enough even if all the judges were unanimous (which they almost were). The only thing that could have helped Manley is if Thomas (or Midori Ito) had been placed ahead of Witt in the short program.
 
Last edited:

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
It was more than 4.2 for the axel as you need to consider GOE. Plushenko got 9.36 for his 3A, Lambiel got 3.87 for his 2A. That’s 5.49 points. Not to mention the PCS generally takes a bit of a hit if a program’s difficulty is reduced and 3A to 2A is optics-wise not a wise move, unless your 3A is really failing you.

Lambiel's 2Axel was beautiful, high and airy and clean, he was actually underscored on GOE there (they gave him more points for his opening 2A in the LP, when that one was a little tilted in comparison, unreliable judging as usual). He didn't need to match Plushenko's score on the 3Axel to deservedly beat him, far from it. Simply doing a decent 3Axel was easily enough to put Lambiel ahead for me. His PCS did not deserve to be lower than Plushenko's simply because he did a 2A, that's not the purpose of PCS. It would have made Lambiel's mesmerizing SP even more exciting if he did a 3A, but it wasn't much of a detriment to me.

The 4T+3T was also tight on the 3T landing (Plushenko outscored him by 1.43 points there) and even the 3Z wasn’t effortless.

Lambiel's 3Lutz was better than Plushenko's and it was indeed quite effortless. He had an amazing entry and got more distance on the jump, with ballon in the air and more speed and strong edging on the exit. Plushenko wins on the combo jump, but similar to the theoretical 3A comparison, Lambiel did not need to beat him on that element to deserve to beat him overall.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
This program by John Curry is regarded as the gold standard for interpreting Don Quixote on ice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z79TMsYRnEc&t=9s

...

Not only the gold, platinum, and every other standard for Don Quixote, but for long programs in general for an exceedingly long time (Toller paving the way, of course;))

I still say, after Torvill and Dean, John Curry was the most accepted and least controversial gold medal in figure skating. Did he ever peak at the right time:biggrin:
 
Top