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I would agree with 3 out of 4. Hanyu's win was debated by many two falls versus the bobbles of Chan and remember he pc wise was not as strong as he is now. But everyone has their own opinion.
Non Controversial Olympic Wins
- Thread starter Greengemmonster
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I would agree with 3 out of 4. Hanyu's win was debated by many two falls versus the bobbles of Chan and remember he pc wise was not as strong as he is now. But everyone has their own opinion.
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I think because it was so close it can't really be uncontroversial with judges or humans scoring pcs and goes it doesn't take much to flip the decision.
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I appreciate your post because it is true. In fact, I hope people don't attack me for poiinting out that some decisions they think weren't controversial by some were and while I may not agree with it I can see their point.
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Probably you know the Godfather program was adored by the audience. Well, if you don't know I tell you now.
That was Plushenko's Lp in 2005, too. That program had some other versions. I agree at the OG wasn't the best choreographyically. I already said probably that was Mishin's coaching tactic and Plush did that what Mishin told him! In his whole career Plushy did his second father's suggestions....:yes:ECH 2006 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNIENLK-tfM look at the audience..and listen to the ESPN commentators
GPF 2005 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=683FQ02vUVE for me the best version of GF and listen to the ESPN commentators again!
I have never seen such intensity in any other skating...Never! Ever!
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I would also say Alina's win was controversial because of the nature of how she won - by backloading everything. This was totally fair and square, and within the rules and not controversial in that sense (other skaters were more than welcome to backload themselves) -- it's just controversial from a figure skating "best practices" standpoint of having a balanced program and "gaming" a system.
Of course an argument could be made about PCS too, but for me, it's interchangeable Medvedeva/Zagitova. Same country, same coach, different skaters, both went clean, so the "controversy" (other than from a fan standpoint) isn't particularly substantial.
Once we get into a whole, well her PCS should have been lowered this much, and hers should have been tweaked higher this much, and then she'd have the win is getting a bit pedantic, IMO. Zagitova still gave arguably the hardest Olympic program executed by a woman, and while the program was a bit meh, the win was deserved. Kinda reminds me of Lipinski vs. Kwan both going clean - Lipinski's programs weren't much compared to Kwan but she outskated Kwan technically all things considered (not to mention Kwan was a bit tentative in her FS as well, whereas Lipinski skated with abandon).
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The actual RESULT itself was not controversial (in my opinion), given the better SP Hanyu had and the errors Chan made in the FS. But as mentioned, the nature of the win was controversial being so sloppy (arguably the sloppiest men's gold medal ever). Had Chan been placed ahead it would have been controversial for the same reason too.
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I think Baiul's victory in 1994 was the last time the most technically ambitious ladies programs (free of falls) didn't end up winning. Controversial or not, you win OGMs on the first mark now, not the second.
To me M/D were much better than G/G in ‘94 and were cleaner especially in the free skate. While it wasn’t controversial because G/G were so popular at the time and beloved, M/D were the better team in the competition and IJS probably would have reflected that point blank.
The backloading to me was what made the program exciting. Every jump matched the frenetic second half of the program. What was not as enjoyable was the frenetic and rushed choreo of the first half. So yes I agree with you but I have never had a problem with the backloading it was always super exciting to see her crush those jumps as the music was speeding up (and almost every single jump hit an accent...maybe not during the Olympics but her Cup of China performance of it I remember was sublime.)
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M/D's SP from that event is one of my all favorites and I agree about IJS
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Which does beg the question what is meant by controversial... I mean, in all my reading, very few people expert or fan seem to have disputed that Yuzuru rightly placed higher than Patrick, especially given the short as well as the free; any controversy seems to be whether the Olympic rules that don't allow for a 'no winner' result was inadequate that year (I am hopelessly biased, so won't argue the point except to say there have been many and far worse OGMs in different sports, so don't hold your breath on the IOC changing).
And with Alina in 2018, the consensus that she outskated Evgenia may not be as broad but it's pretty much so in retrospect, the controversy seems to centre around whether that the blatant over the top backloading was good or bad in itself/led to an actual rule change.
So if 'controversial' means that there is no or little consensus as to the actual placement, both are only controversial on 'my opinion right or wrong' basis (not that there is anything wrong with 'my opinion right or wrong' in itself, but it's not controversy). Whereas to lambast the expired equine, Adelina and Yuna will never not be non-controversial as long as there are three people alive to watch the tapes.
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True but Kim could have fallen once or twice in 2010 and still edged out Asada because she had the second mark in spades.
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Fair assessment; I agree the hardest program but one could have slaughtered her for unbalanced program pc wise.
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Well I think that might be a bit of an overstatment. She didn't have all the triples (no loop I believe). Mao was probably closer to Joannie rochette. But I m sure there will be some Mao fan or soeone who thinks it is controversial.
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I'm not so sure about that. M/D had inferior lifts to G/G and the stumble on the footwork in the LP could have been very costly. Their only technical advantage, aside from being a little more clean in those performances, was a better death spiral and the 3Toe in the LP. It's questionable if they even would have beaten G/G technically in the LP (in the SP yes), and combined with having lower PCS, that's not a good situation for them. I think result would have been the same.
Yep, the 2004-2005 GPF was easily his best performance of the program...but the Olympics was his weakest performance of it. Nobody would deserve to beat him in 2006 if he skated his best (since Lambiel was essentially never capable of doing a whole competition without multiple mistakes), but we have to judge what's on the ice. Plushenko wasn't the same skater in 2006, coming back from injury and modifying the program to a worse version that he was never able to skate clean all season long. Plushenko has actually never skated a "clean" Olympic LP, there's always been a mistake.
LOL, that doesn't matter! It has nothing to do with how PCS should be judged (and someone "going clean" or not doesn't mean they inherently deserve higher PCS than someone else either). Truly gobsmacking you admit these irrelevant factors change your own opinion of how to grade a skater.
Anyway, I think Medved's programs were perfumed, well-groomed trash. The SP was so pretentious with it's empty attempt to force something "deep", and the LP was musically jarring (the step sequence to that music is a big no) and failed to convey the epic, tragic quality it was trying to achieve. She did have slightly better overall posture and range of expression than Zagitova, but the desperation of someone who knows they are being overtaken was in the air. Zagitova's programs weren't amazing, and the LP being more imbalanced should be accounted for, but they were less offensive and had more exciting highlights, so I still give her the edge on PCS, and then with the technical side taken into consideration there's no question at all.
Osmond had a superficial, mechanical LP and despite having some better basic skating qualities, her footwork sequences have always been weaker. Just an underwhelming Olympic podium and a sad reflection of how poorly managed the sport is to be rewarding things like this so highly. Even besides the podium, none of the performances from that competition are things I go back and watch. The best programs on paper for me were Karen Chen's SP and Kaori Sakamoto's LP, but they both skated them better in other competitions (and Kaori never had quite enough refinement for it; Alena Kostornaia should do a program like this, it would be stunning).
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Yet again, you're misconstruing the points I'm trying to make. Points for good performance, not so much for good interpretation.
I was saying that the controversy surrounding wins tends to be around which country won rather than the skater. Both skaters went clean, and were technically superior, and while their PCS was high, that's literally trying to find something to make their 1-2 placement controversial. I was saying that Medvedeva winning or Zagitova winning is interchangeable for me, and it's less controversial than if they were from different countries (or had different coaches). If Lysacek or Stojko or Sale/Pelletier or Kim were from Russia the controversy surrounding the 2010/1994/2002/2014 Olympic competitions would have been less controversial.
As for how I grade skaters, I do so independently of each other. And someone going clean doesn't earn them higher marks than other skaters but it does make a better impression than skaters who are "artistic" or have better programs (subjectively speaking) but make technical errors that mar their program. I probably would have given Medvedeva higher PCS scores than Zagitova, and both less GOE than the judges gave them, but I wouldn't crunch the numbers in such a way that the results ended up changing in a manner that was desirable for my own personal preference. Personally, I like both of them and was impressed by both of their Olympic performances. Sure, they weren't on the artistic level of someone like Kim, but I ain't wasting my time writing a whiny, longwinded letter to the ISU any time soon about how they both should have been scored differently.
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I will go with the other comments its skating, its relies on human, and I can see your point but it is not impossible that Chan should have won in the eyes of some it wasn't all that clear at least in some people's minds. I guess really you could argue results were uncontroversial or controversial it depends on your view and definitions. What's done is done. INteresting. That's why skating is unique. Unlike running usually it is clear and even though there are refs in some sports they still are a little easier or less reliant on human judging and errors or opinions.
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Yet again, you're misconstruing the points I'm trying to make. Points for good performance, not so much for good interpretation.
I was saying that the controversy surrounding wins tends to be around which country won rather than the skater. Both skaters went clean, and were technically superior, and while their PCS was high, that's literally trying to find something to make their 1-2 placement controversial. I was saying that Medvedeva winning or Zagitova winning is interchangeable for me, and it's less controversial than if they were from different countries (or had different coaches). If Lysacek or Stojko or Sale/Pelletier or Kim were from Russia the controversy surrounding the 2010/1994/2002/2014 Olympic competitions would have been less controversial.
As for how I grade skaters, I do so independently of each other. And someone going clean doesn't earn them higher marks than other skaters but it does make a better impression than skaters who are "artistic" or have better programs (subjectively speaking) but make technical errors that mar their program. I probably would have given Medvedeva higher PCS scores than Zagitova, and both less GOE than the judges gave them, but I wouldn't crunch the numbers in such a way that the results ended up changing in a manner that was desirable for my own personal preference. Personally, I like both of them and was impressed by both of their Olympic performances. Sure, they weren't on the artistic level of someone like Kim, but I ain't wasting my time writing a whiny, longwinded letter to the ISU any time soon about how they both should have been scored differently.
Not too many would agree but I can see a case even with her bobbles for Osmond winning OGM in 2018.
but it is what it is
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Maybe for the general public, but that has nothing to do with the skating itself, and you were talking about this in relation to PCS. You say it's "pedantic" to debate PCS and if someone deserves to win or not based on that. Well, if you don't care that's your thing, but assessing the programs is supposed to be an important aspect of deciding placement. Lipinski vs Kwan at 98 Olympics and Hughes vs Kwan in 02 (and even Cohen too) are a couple of the most enduringly debated topics for skating aficionados. Perhaps you just did not phrase yourself well in trying to express why Zag/Med's performances are interchangeable for you. Personally, I feel there's no good argument for putting Medvedeva over Zagitova, because at the end of the day her programs weren't good and she didn't have any extra special qualities, so she just got outjumped (and yet, she did win the LP according to the judges, so that could be described as...controversial).
Yes. I am not sure why people tried to interpret this topic as "non-controversial for everyone". Impossible to say, and certainly biased with which sections of the fandom you've visited. So I left it as the medalists I just agreed with, which I felt is what the OP tried to say anyway.
Why is 2006 Ladies non-controversial? I've read comments that 1. Arakawa played it too safely 2. her programs weren't that great/were boring 3. Cohen deserved to win despite the falls due to PCS.
Plus, she did three double loops. And she was overscored after the SP. If Arakawa and Slutskaya weren't overscored after the SP, maybe Cohen would have entered the LP with more confidence.
There was a strange discussion here, IMO.
Yes, frontloading all your difficult jumps, and doing little in between till the last pass was knocked out and then moving on to the steps, choreography sequence, and spins, is obviously far and away a better and magical program construction than someone who approaches that in the opposite direction.
Yes, a Russian and/or an Asian "skater" being scored too damn high is obviously oppression and emotional abuse to Brown and Savoie, who remain the only skaters who can tie their boots properly till date, but aren't in any way affected by the ones who've beaten them on presentation at Nationals. I hope this oppression is rectified soon, not everyone can afford to constantly take to twitter or set up an interview on talk shows. Maybe the oppression of Nathan Chen's vastly underscored performances and the abuse of Jason Brown winning silver at 4CCs despite doing a +5 GOE 2T and the best triple axels ever put forward by humankind against people who can barely skate can be mitigated by banning all other competition.
? No. He said that there might be an argument based off PCS for either of those two, but it barely matters for him, because he doesn't really care.
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