Does Anyone Miss Compulsory Figures And Want Them Back? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Does Anyone Miss Compulsory Figures And Want Them Back?

4everchan

Record Breaker
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Mar 7, 2015
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Martinique
i would like to see them included in the short program....a spin could be replaced by a figure of choice, skated on the rhythm of the music... it could be quit a challenge choreographically but could also be quite interesting.. I am sure talented choreo, skaters and coaches could make something fun happen. Of course, as ONE element of the program, it wouldn't make a figures specialist WIN the SP... but it would, because of its mandatory aspect, improve th skating skills of everyone in general through training figures
 

acapenci

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 16, 2017
Im a firm no. I think a lot of people who weren't around during the figures era hold a romanticization for them, and i've seen others (outside of gs) suggest that they will fix everybody's edge problems. Without going into how that is untrue, lets just look at the practicalities of figures for the average skater:

Figures requires you to have a square of clean ice to stick to and. Nowdays, thats incredibly challenging with 15 skaters to a 45 min freestyle session and with prices for said sessions going up to 25$ in some places (may not seem like a lot, but these skaters have to buy multiple a day and coaching fees are seperate).

It has been decades since figures were widely trained. There are thousands of coaches today who a) have never done figures in their entire life, or b) did do figures but it was when they were a child and haven't thought about them since. Assuming that we are sticking with how figures in the past were done, how do we justify adding a whole new part of figure skating competitions that these kid's coaches cant even prepare them for?

This is not to say that other's opinions on figures aren't valid, but to say that there are huge challenges to go back to training figures in 2020 because of how this sport has evolved. I wanted to give an idea of how implementing figures again would effect things from a skater's POV.

I personally think that MIF tests should be much more difficult than they already are, but that's a different thread.
 

Charlotte 71

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 27, 2005
I think it would be good if skaters learned to skate the basic figures - eights, serpentines, loops and paragraph 8s - as a progressive part of learning the four edges and turns, threes, rockers, counters. I would see it as less formulaic than the old series of nine figures tests when it comes to size and composition of the figures, and maybe MIF tests should incorporate basic figures just at the lower test levels, maybe the first two or three tests, and maybe open the more advanced MIF tests to more creativity about how figures elements could be combined.
I've often thought that training ice dancing tests would be more beneficial to skating skills, power and edges than figures though. Just remember watching Ben Agosto flying around the whole rink in about two stokes one year at a Nationals practice and thinking wow, whatever he did in his early training to get that smooth, fast and powerful, every skater should do it.
There is only so much time in the day though. If skaters were training figures again, they wouldn't have as much time for athletic strength and conditioning, dance classes, choreography, etc., a lot of what has made the sport so much better in the ways that it is better than it used to be. Skaters used to spend so much time on figures that there wasn't time for much else.
 

ruga

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
Not sure about this idea. It would undoubtedly improve skaters' blade control skills, but it doesn't look very exciting to me. Doubt that people would enjoy watching skaters basically draw things on ice.

Some more exciting and modern alternative could be found though. Maybe some sort of an obstacle course (it is used in roller skating, see: https://youtu.be/QPsXK4NkXTc). Skaters could be compared by accuracy and speed, so less subjectivity and seeing skaters race against each other is certainly interesting.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
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Jan 9, 2017
Country
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Not everything that's good for a sport or anything in general is always exciting or fun. For some skaters it is and in skating, it shows in our edge control and more.
Many here that are saying it was romanticized and is wanted by those who weren't around for it aren't exactly accurate. I grew up learning the art of, practicing and competing figures and grew to love and miss them, many others the same. It also did not take away from any other aspect of training, we still were able to do everything else, and some of us even two disciplines.

It amazes and also makes me :palmf: to watch current skaters who obviously have never taken the time in their training or cared to learn how to properly control the blade.

I've also observed over time that those who are opposed to it or think it's boring or not worthwhile are the ones that either aren't properly educated in them, have never done them or the opposite: Have attempted them and suck at it. So to those people, we'll just agree to disagree right now.

I'll stand by my educated observation that figures should be taught from a young age and maintained as this is the sport of figure skating. It is possible to be a well-rounded skater.
 

Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Yes i miss them cause you get the feeling skaters nowadays skate worse because of the lack of the figures.

They'll have to find a way to make them interesting tho for the public.
 

MCsAngel2

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 10, 2019
I think they ought to be taught and tested, but not included in competition. There's a 52 year old coach at my rink who started up a figures class last year (not sure how it went).

I do think they should bring back compulsory dances. All those dance patterns are in danger of being forgotten.
 

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
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Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
It amazes and also makes me :palmf: to watch current skaters who obviously have never taken the time in their training or cared to learn how to properly control the blade.

Just wondering if you could provide some examples of current (or post-1990) skaters who have/haven't trained figures? I know some coaches keep teaching them in training to their skaters, but I'm not sure which (the only specific instance I can recall is a brief video clip showing Frank Carroll teaching Tatsuki Machida). Hoping that as an insider you might have access to that information :)

Some skaters at the turn of the century (Emanuel Sandhu and Jeffrey Buttle) had really beautiful precise edges - I'm curious to know if it's because their early training intersected with the figures era. Other more recent skaters (e.g. Patrick Chan and Yuzuru Hanyu) are also regarded as having great edge quality, but (to my inexpert eye) it seems to me as though the way they control their edges is somehow different to the preceding two examples. Alternatively, maybe this is due to differences in the way their programmes are choreographed, or their personal style...

Also, I know you competed in both singles and ice dance, but for skaters who purely did ice dance I am curious - were they made to learn figures in training too, or did they just develop skating skills from doing compulsory dances or edge/turn drills?
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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It also did not take away from any other aspect of training, we still were able to do everything else

Well that's simply wrong. Any time you spend on something in life, takes away from time you can be spending doing something else. There are ways to train more efficiently and such, and it's possible we sometimes overtrain in a certain area and aren't getting gains out of the time spent, but it's impossible to do everything.

Were you doing every Triple jump in the book with maximum consistency and quality, much less Quads, and a plethora of high quality Level 4 spins and footwork and spirals, and were you able to perform the most stunningly complex and artistic programs ever seen? No, you were not, and any time you spent on something else (such as figures), is likely time that you've lost towards improving everything else I just listed.
 

brakes

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
How are they a mismatch? There are up to 100 points to grab for PCS, which includes edge quality, edge control, quality of TR.
In a sense of the view and performance: all those super athletic high-fliers soaring over the ice at insane speed, suddenly glued to it and carving geometrical figures at 2km/h.
 

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
All those dance patterns are in danger of being forgotten.

Not if you're a skater (even a recreational one) doing the dance tests :biggrin: Maybe for the spectators, yes.

I think many people agree that figures are good for training but not very feasible in an event combined with free skating - the trouble is how to incentivise skaters to train something that isn't (directly) evaluated in competition?

I guess the underlying issue is that control/cleanliness/precision of footwork (something cultivated by figures) is not recognised or rewarded as much as it should be. Maybe we could increase the weightage of step sequences, or make the judging of levels more stringent? Akin to how valuing jumps highly caused skaters to spend lots of time training them (and using tools like the harness/spinner), it would make it more 'profitable' points-wise for skaters to spend time on figures.

I'm always amazed at how little a L4 step sequence is worth compared to even one triple jump (and how many top-ranked skaters nowadays - especially men - get away with mediocre step sequences just by chucking in a quad). Of course you can have a sloppily executed/aesthetically displeasing StSq4, but generally it does act as an objective measure of skating skills that can be evaluated from a distance by camera. So doing something with the step sequence mark (or requirements within it) may be the closest we can get to incorporating 'figures' into competitive freeskating events.

I like the idea of a separate figures event, and as others have mentioned, the World Figure Championship exists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKKLZoUS6hg (Witness the glory of the Beacom Blossom!)
Creative figures are spectacular and it would be great to see them grow as a sport, but the lack of commercial viability probably means that they would have to continue to be managed under a separate sports body (e.g. World Figure Sport as is the situation now) rather than the ISU. Maybe in the distant future the two systems could become like union and league rugby...
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
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Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
Just wondering if you could provide some examples of current (or post-1990) skaters who have/haven't trained figures? I know some coaches keep teaching them in training to their skaters, but I'm not sure which (the only specific instance I can recall is a brief video clip showing Frank Carroll teaching Tatsuki Machida). Hoping that as an insider you might have access to that information :)

Some skaters at the turn of the century (Emanuel Sandhu and Jeffrey Buttle) had really beautiful precise edges - I'm curious to know if it's because their early training intersected with the figures era. Other more recent skaters (e.g. Patrick Chan and Yuzuru Hanyu) are also regarded as having great edge quality, but (to my inexpert eye) it seems to me as though the way they control their edges is somehow different to the preceding two examples. Alternatively, maybe this is due to differences in the way their programmes are choreographed, or their personal style...

Also, I know you competed in both singles and ice dance, but for skaters who purely did ice dance I am curious - were they made to learn figures in training too, or did they just develop skating skills from doing compulsory dances or edge/turn drills?

I can't sit here and list everyone. Buttle, Chan, and others you have mentioned. Abbott and many of that era and after have. Chan was specifically taught by Osborne Colson and was made to dedicate 30 mins give or take daily training basic edgework: And it shows.

Ice dancers are a no brainer. As someone mentioned Agosto has amazing edges, Moir and Virtue as well, and many others prior.

Again, there's a time and place to use insider knowledge, and times not to. There is a unwritten code in this sport and many who get to a certain point know that and we respect it.

I hope I was able to somewhat help you though.
 

Jetta

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 13, 2018
I personally think that MIF tests should be much more difficult than they already are, but that's a different thread.

Definitely a different thread, but I’m in complete agreement. I’ve witnessed very questionable tests passing at almost every MITF level.

As for figures, I absolutely see their value for skaters, but understand why they were eliminated. Figure skating is already seeing dwindling numbers and less viewership here in the US, I don’t see how adding figures will improve that.
 

cohen-esque

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 27, 2014

To add something to Ic3Rabbit’s answer in regards to a skater you mentioned: Yuzuru Hanyu has practiced figures to at least some extent. Brian Orser (and/or Tracy Wilson) teaches figures to at least some of his skaters, including Hanyu and Javier Fernandez. I think there might be footage of the two of them skating figures from the Olympic practices.

I don’t know if it’s a common thing at TCC to train figures, although I don’t get the impression that it’s a big part of training for most skaters there. But Tracy Wilson (a former ice dancer) does do sessions for skating skills and edge control there, and you can often see improvements from skaters who have worked with her for a while.
 

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
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Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
Thanks @Ic3Rabbit and @cohen-esque for the info!

I wonder if there is a greater tendency in North America for coaches to continue teaching figures, as opposed to elsewhere in the world. I've lived in four countries and Canada was the only place I've skated where I've encountered figure-style exercises in the skating federation test system (I'm a low-level adult skater though, so maybe it's more ubiquitous at the elite level...)

Certainly ice dancers have great edges, but do they necessarily develop that from doing figures? My coach was an ice dancer competing for a Central European country several decades ago (also trained briefly in Russia) and while she knows figures from when she learnt the fundamentals of skating, my impression was that once she specialised in ice dance (quite early on) she didn't do them anymore. Rather, they spent a lot of time practicing compulsory dances instead.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I think it would be good if skaters learned to skate the basic figures - eights, serpentines, loops and paragraph 8s - as a progressive part of learning the four edges and turns, threes, rockers, counters. I would see it as less formulaic than the old series of nine figures tests when it comes to size and composition of the figures, and maybe MIF tests should incorporate basic figures just at the lower test levels, maybe the first two or three tests,

Well, the first few tests of the US MIF tests do now include circle patterns based on figures, and the higher levels do include brackets, counters, rockers, and loops performed on half circles.

The demands for precision aren't nearly as high, nor could they be practically without allowing for clean ice for every test and judges scrutinizing the tracings up close.

Which would help more: would raising the passing standards for the current MIF patterns, or changing the patterns to be more about repeating circles on top of each other as near as judges can ascertain from a distance without necessarily being able to see the tracings?

However, different federations have different test structures -- or no test structure at all -- so there isn't a way to ensure that all skaters from all countries will be doing the same exercises. Each federation is trying to create a structure they think will best prepare their skaters for competition, but they don't always agree on the most effective exercises.

and maybe open the more advanced MIF tests to more creativity about how figures elements could be combined.

That's kind of what the technical demands of IJS step sequences are about -- especially the variety/complexity of turns, turns in both directions, and "clusters" features, not so much the full body movement feature.

Of course, in the context of a program to music the step sequences are also evaluated on creativity, musicality, etc., in ways that never applied to figures.

In any case, the technical content of the step sequences in the IJS era is certainly higher and more exacting than anything that was required or often seen from the 1990s through early 2000s era when neither figures nor IJS level features were part of competition. (Toward the earlier part of that era more skaters had trained and competed figures up to a high or middle level earlier in their careers and could show those kinds of skills in their programs -- though often as "in betweens" in slow sections of the freeskate rather than in step sequences. The more time had elapsed from the end of figures being required, the fewer skaters had actually had to do them. Depended when they started skating and how far they got before figures were no longer required.

Also what federation they came up through, and, as now, what their coaches introduced even when not required by tests or competition requirements.

I guess the underlying issue is that control/cleanliness/precision of footwork (something cultivated by figures) is not recognised or rewarded as much as it should be. Maybe we could increase the weightage of step sequences, or make the judging of levels more stringent? Akin to how valuing jumps highly caused skaters to spend lots of time training them (and using tools like the harness/spinner), it would make it more 'profitable' points-wise for skaters to spend time on figures.

I'm always amazed at how little a L4 step sequence is worth compared to even one triple jump (and how many top-ranked skaters nowadays - especially men - get away with mediocre step sequences just by chucking in a quad).

Make the base values higher for step sequences that actually achieve the high level of technical content (complexity of turns and the one-foot clusters), and encourage tech panels to hold the accuracy of the turns and edges to very high standards to achieve the levels, and judges to hold the quality of the edges and turns to high standards when awarding GOEs.

Maybe introduce some additional edge-based elements into the technical program or well-balanced free skate so there would be more opportunities to earn points through blade-to-ice skills, compared to the current overemphasis on in-air rotations. E.g.,

A leveled "field moves sequence" that would include other body positions in addition to spirals and that offers more edge-based features and fewer position-based features than the old leveled spiral sequence

A leveled "school figures variation" that would be based on a symmetrical layout of circles and that would offer level features primarily based on inclusion of one-foot turns, as well as number of half circles covered on one foot, edge changes, choctaws and some body position difficulty. GOEs could focus primarily on circle size and shape, edge steadiness, and maintaining flow, with lesser emphasis on carriage/body position and relation to the music.

A redefinition of jump sequences that offers levels or some other reward for complex edge-based transitions between jumps.


I think the biggest problem is that most viewers can learn to appreciate multiple revolutions in the air and extreme body positions more easily than they can understand the difference between different kinds of on-ice turns or the value of clean turns, steady edges, and steady flow.

If there were more edge-based elements in the program, so that skaters who excelled on the ice would often outscore those who excel only in the air, then there would need to be better mechanisms (commentary; official ways of reporting scores) to help casual fans, and even diehard fans of skaters but who haven't figure skated themselves, to understand exactly what is being evaluated and rewarded in these elements.
 

Harriet

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Oct 23, 2017
Country
Australia
To add something to Ic3Rabbit’s answer in regards to a skater you mentioned: Yuzuru Hanyu has practiced figures to at least some extent. Brian Orser (and/or Tracy Wilson) teaches figures to at least some of his skaters, including Hanyu and Javier Fernandez. I think there might be footage of the two of them skating figures from the Olympic practices.

I don’t know if it’s a common thing at TCC to train figures, although I don’t get the impression that it’s a big part of training for most skaters there. But Tracy Wilson (a former ice dancer) does do sessions for skating skills and edge control there, and you can often see improvements from skaters who have worked with her for a while.

I believe Peter Grutter in Switzerland still also teaches some basic figures and figures-derived skills; I can't dig up a specific reference to support that, but I feel sure I've read it somewhere.
 

surimi

Onward and forward, Sota!
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Nov 12, 2013
I have never watched them, and certainly do not miss them. I'd watch my faves do them if they were re-introduced but I'd probably be bored.
"Uneducated" and not ashamed.
 

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
Make the base values higher for step sequences that actually achieve the high level of technical content (complexity of turns and the one-foot clusters), and encourage tech panels to hold the accuracy of the turns and edges to very high standards to achieve the levels, and judges to hold the quality of the edges and turns to high standards when awarding GOEs.
...
A leveled "field moves sequence" that would include other body positions in addition to spirals and that offers more edge-based features and fewer position-based features than the old leveled spiral sequence
..
If there were more edge-based elements in the program, so that skaters who excelled on the ice would often outscore those who excel only in the air, then there would need to be better mechanisms (commentary; official ways of reporting scores) to help casual fans, and even diehard fans of skaters but who haven't figure skated themselves, to understand exactly what is being evaluated and rewarded in these elements.

Agree about the need to fine-tune scoring of step sequence levels to better distinguish and reward technical proficiency. :thumbsup:

Isn't the choreographic sequence supposed to be a sort of replacement for the old spiral sequence requirement? Maybe we could have an intermediate between the two - with scored levels and more requirements in terms of edge quality/features etc., but still retain flexibility of choice for choreographic effect. More recognition for well-executed ina bauers and spread eagles, but also leaving room to include other fancy things like split jumps (maybe even unusual jumps like the split flip/one-foot axel/consecutive which aren't rewarded currently?)

As for mechanisms to inform fans, I admit I can't usually tell at a glance whether something might be e.g. L2 or L3, but I found the introduction of the onscreen scoring box that shows the score/level of each element almost in real time to be very helpful (it's helped me get better at guessing the levels). Something along those lines, along with more informative commentary (a la Ted Barton) focused on technical aspects as opposed to drama/intrigue, could be feasible.

I hope some influential people from the ISU stumble across this thread, it's proving to be quite interesting :)
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
Well that's simply wrong. Any time you spend on something in life, takes away from time you can be spending doing something else. There are ways to train more efficiently and such, and it's possible we sometimes overtrain in a certain area and aren't getting gains out of the time spent, but it's impossible to do everything.

Were you doing every Triple jump in the book with maximum consistency and quality, much less Quads, and a plethora of high quality Level 4 spins and footwork and spirals, and were you able to perform the most stunningly complex and artistic programs ever seen? No, you were not, and any time you spent on something else (such as figures), is likely time that you've lost towards improving everything else I just listed.

1st paragraph : figures need balance, body awareness, consistent flow, blade control, focus... all of these are necessary to become a great jumper, spinner and overall skater, I have thus a hard time imagining that working on figures is a waste of time. People here are not necessarily arguing to bring them back on to what they were when you could win an event as a figure specialist... but are suggesting they would b helpful to develop better skaters.

2nd paragraph : how do you know what ic3rabbit has achieved in her life? I have met many people on this forum, some professional coaches and choreos, current senior, junior and former elite athletes, ISU tech caller etc.... whether or not people agree or disagree on topics, there is no need to be aggressive towards them.
 
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