Rescoring of 2010 Olympics | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Rescoring of 2010 Olympics

kolyadafan2002

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Jun 6, 2019
He didn't. Here are some screenshots I took:

Takeoff nearly complete

Clearly well into the air

Earliest landing point that can possibly be called

You can see from the second image where is already well into the air, he's getting enough rotation from the takeoff point. Or if you just look at the point where his 3Flip lands to determine the start of 3Toe (and he absolutely not turn any further than the allowable amount on his takeoff), he's still hitting the 1/4 turn mark for the landing.

Unfortunately though, 1/4 is the mark for underrotated. Exactly o 1/4 is underrotated, its hair sometimes they dont call it as it's a borderline call.
 

Blades of Passion

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Unfortunately though, 1/4 is the mark for underrotated. Exactly 1/4 is underrotated

That's not true. The rules all the way through 2018 said jumps were allowed to be 1/4 short, it was just over 1/4 that got the call. Takakhashi's was 1/4 at worst, but realistically it was less short than that...
 

kolyadafan2002

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That's not true. The rules all the way through 2018 said jumps were allowed to be 1/4 short, it was just over 1/4 that got the call. Takakhashi's was 1/4 at worst, but realistically it was less short than that...

Just checked ISU communications 1611 and you are correct in the rule that if it is on the 1/4 it was allowed back then.

I'll talk to a technical specialist I know and get it looked at, and make the decision later.
You are free to give the jump positive GOE if you wish, and the only difference the < will be is in base value.
Once I've talked to the tech specialist I'll come back with final judgement on the 3T.
 

Blades of Passion

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I saw you mentioned you were okay with evaluating modern footwork too? The main thing about Level 4 footwork in this Olympics was doing 5 different types of turns in both directions, along with "full use of upper body movement" and "quick changes of rotational direction with steps and turns". Lysacek didn't complete one of his necessary loop turns in the LP sequence and another turn as well, when I last looked. You can probably spot those trouble areas.
 

kolyadafan2002

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I saw you mentioned you were okay with evaluating modern footwork too? The main thing about Level 4 footwork in this Olympics was doing 5 different types of turns in both directions, along with "full use of upper body movement" and "quick changes of rotational direction with steps and turns". Lysacek didn't complete one of his necessary loop turns in the LP sequence and another turn as well, when I last looked. You can probably spot those trouble areas.

I did spot a number of "questionable" turns in lysaceks step sequence in the LP. I'll take a closer look and tally up number of turns.
 

kolyadafan2002

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I saw you mentioned you were okay with evaluating modern footwork too? The main thing about Level 4 footwork in this Olympics was doing 5 different types of turns in both directions, along with "full use of upper body movement" and "quick changes of rotational direction with steps and turns". Lysacek didn't complete one of his necessary loop turns in the LP sequence and another turn as well, when I last looked. You can probably spot those trouble areas.

I have taken a prelimenary look at Lysaceks "level 4", and to me it seems it is a Level 2. I will look again in slow motion, and ask the tech specialist but I would be comfortable to see it as a level 2 CiSt.
 

gkelly

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ISU Communication 1611 went into effect in May 2010.

During the 2009-2010 season, the applicable document was ISU Communication 1555.

At that time "The sign “<” will not be shown to the Judges. They will evaluate the GOE as they see it (without slow motion)."

So if you want to try judging the way 2010 judges did, then rely on your own eyes and not on the tech panel calls, which judges did not have access to during the competition by that year's rules.

If you want to try playing technical specialist, then the applicable rules for calling jump rotation as given by the Technical Panel Handbook in effect at the time were
The quarter mark of landing is the border line to identify a cheated jump. There needs to be more than ¼ revolution missing.The Technical Specialist will identify any jump that is cheated by more than one quarter turn on the landing as the downgraded jump. For example, a triple Lutz that rotates 2.5 turns by the foot placement and 2.75 turns of the upper body will be called as a triple attempt and then downgraded. The camera angle is important to consider when deciding upon a cheated jump particularly when the jump is at the opposite end of the rink than the camera. In all doubtful cases the Technical Panel should act to the benefit of the skater. The sign “<” will not be shown to the Judges. They will evaluate the GOE as they see it (without slow motion).

[emphasis added]

Regarding step sequence levels (also applicable to tech panel only and not shown to judges, in any year), from Comm. 1555 and 2010 season tech panel handbook:

STEP SEQUENCES
Types of turns (executed on one foot) : three turns, twizzles, brackets, loops, counters, rockers.
Types of steps (executed on one foot whenever possible) : toe steps, chasses, mohawks, choctaws, curves with change of edge, crossrolls, running steps.
Simple variety: Must include at least 6 turns and 4 steps, none of the types can be counted more than twice.
Variety: Must include at least 8 turns and 4 steps, none of the types can be counted more than twice.
Complexity: Must include at least 5 different types of turns and 3 different types of steps all executed at least once in both directions.

1) Simple variety (Level 2), variety (Level 3), complexity (Level 4) of turns and steps throughout (compulsory)
2) Rotations (turns, steps) in either direction (left and right) with full body rotation covering at least 1/3 of the pattern in total for each rotational direction
3) Moderate (full for Level 4) use of upper body movement
4) Quick changes of rotational direction executed with turns and steps
 

kolyadafan2002

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Just an update for everybody! I have received a correctly filled scoresheet from judge number 6, and look forward to receiving the rest of them
We still have judge spots available for anybody else who wishes to participate
 

mikeko666

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Apr 27, 2011
The big ones are Takahashi's 3Toe in the LP being called underrotated (I also find it wrong he received 0 points for the Quad attempt, it's debateable he was within 1/4 rotation leeway, judging by takeoff point), and Lysacek's footwork sequence in the LP being called Level 4 instead of Level 3. I also don't agree with Kozuka getting a ! call and -GOE on his Flip in either program. Another quirk is they gave Lambiel a Level 4 on footwork in the LP, which I don't agree with, but didn't give it to him on his last footwork in the SP. That kind of balances out, except it does affect the GOE points awarded (and I'm pretty sure most people will give him higher GOE for that SP footwork).

In addition to 3F+3T< for Takahashi, many objected the TWO edge calls on his 3Lz in FS.
I remember a NYT artilcle suggesting Lysacek's 3F may have deserved "e" instead of "!" he actually received.
 

kwanatic

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I'd be interested to see what this panel comes up with for the results. We're doing the same thing over at Figure Skating Universe--rescoring events with a tech and judges panel made up of forum members. The first panel scored a 6.0 competition (1998 Worlds, women's event) and we're currently scoring the men from the 2010 Olympics. I'm on the panel for this one--the SP is done and we'll be scoring the FS soon.

Scoring projects are always pretty massive undertakings but they are a lot of fun in terms of getting another opinion on a competition result. On my blog I'd rescore events that I felt had questionable outcomes by myself. It's actually something I'd encourage fans to do. A lot of times people throw out scores saying what a skater should get for a performance; however, when you look at the numbers oftentimes there's no way to make that number stick if the skater is scored fairly.

My first (and only) group rescore project was for the women's event from Sochi. As expected the results came out different. It was a lot of fun but A LOT of work. Lots and lots of data to calculate and tally and then (for me, since it was a blog) to condense down enough to explain the results. If anyone is interested here's the link for the results.
 

kolyadafan2002

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I'd be interested to see what this panel comes up with for the results. We're doing the same thing over at Figure Skating Universe--rescoring events with a tech and judges panel made up of forum members. The first panel scored a 6.0 competition (1998 Worlds, women's event) and we're currently scoring the men from the 2010 Olympics. I'm on the panel for this one--the SP is done and we'll be scoring the FS soon.

Scoring projects are always pretty massive undertakings but they are a lot of fun in terms of getting another opinion on a competition result. On my blog I'd rescore events that I felt had questionable outcomes by myself. It's actually something I'd encourage fans to do. A lot of times people throw out scores saying what a skater should get for a performance; however, when you look at the numbers oftentimes there's no way to make that number stick if the skater is scored fairly.

My first (and only) group rescore project was for the women's event from Sochi. As expected the results came out different. It was a lot of fun but A LOT of work. Lots and lots of data to calculate and tally and then (for me, since it was a blog) to condense down enough to explain the results. If anyone is interested here's the link for the results.

thanks for this. If you want you can be on our panel too, and just copy over the marks you gave on the previous panel?

I have Received 2 scoresheets submitted correctly by Judge number 5 and 6, and I also have finished my scoresheet.

An Update for Blades of Passion:
After talking over a lot with technical specialist we have decided to give Takahashi the 3T in combination clean, and Lysacek a level 3 for that particular CiSt. Thanks for your input and pointing this out.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
thanks for this. If you want you can be on our panel too, and just copy over the marks you gave on the previous panel?

I have Received 2 scoresheets submitted correctly by Judge number 5 and 6, and I also have finished my scoresheet.

An Update for Blades of Passion:
After talking over a lot with technical specialist we have decided to give Takahashi the 3T in combination clean, and Lysacek a level 3 for that particular CiSt. Thanks for your input and pointing this out.

LOL, let me guess - the math wasn't favouring Takahashi enough and favouring Lysacek too much, so tech panel "adjustments" needed to be pointed out? I can see where this is going. Can't wait for the GOE/PCS scoring. :laugh:
 

kolyadafan2002

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LOL, let me guess - the math wasn't favouring Takahashi enough and favouring Lysacek too much, so tech panel "adjustments" needed to be pointed out? I can see where this is going. Can't wait for the GOE/PCS scoring. :laugh:

no, I got an actual tech specialist to check them.
The 3T in the combination was fully rotated, and I cannot see why it was ever called under.
 

4everchan

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Hah, guess I should put Chan in 2nd instead of 1st then to not be so obvious! :p

Tap your foot if you agree! :biggrin:

i really wanted to participate but then, i thought, if ever chan gets higher with this revised panel than at the games, fingers will be pointed at me... so i bailed
 

mrrice

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Jul 9, 2014
I consider Evan's win in 2010 a bit like Sarah's in 2002. I...as a huge Plushy fan wanted him to win however, the event really belonged to Evan who performed 2 perfect programs. I realize he didn't do a quad but, his choreography, costumes, and nerves of steal made him difficult to beat.
 

Daniel1998

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Aug 4, 2015
thanks for this. If you want you can be on our panel too, and just copy over the marks you gave on the previous panel?

I have Received 2 scoresheets submitted correctly by Judge number 5 and 6, and I also have finished my scoresheet.

An Update for Blades of Passion:
After talking over a lot with technical specialist we have decided to give Takahashi the 3T in combination clean, and Lysacek a level 3 for that particular CiSt. Thanks for your input and pointing this out.

I would advise against too many belated changes to technical calls like underrotations, since the GOEs I gave are a direct reflection of the rotation and edge calls given to me in the initial spreadsheet...
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
i really wanted to participate but then, i thought, if ever chan gets higher with this revised panel than at the games, fingers will be pointed at me... so i bailed

Hah I do loves me some Chan but I think I was pretty fair in my judging (for the record, in my scoring he's still off the podium... but my top 8 definitely aren't the same as the results of 2010).

Feel free to come at me y'all when the protocols come out, which I anticipate certain people definitely doing for not agreeing with them. :p
 

kolyadafan2002

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Jun 6, 2019
i really wanted to participate but then, i thought, if ever chan gets higher with this revised panel than at the games, fingers will be pointed at me... so i bailed
The judging scores average out. I personally put Chan higher than he was originally, some may disagree. That's why we have a panel.

Likewise.
This is fine, as sometimes borderline jumps got same goe as underrotations back in 2010. The BV will reflect this.
Hah I do loves me some Chan but I think I was pretty fair in my judging (for the record, in my scoring he's still off the podium... but my top 8 definitely aren't the same as the results of 2010).

Feel free to come at me y'all when the protocols come out, which I anticipate certain people definitely doing for not agreeing with them. :p

It will always be somewhat subjective, and reading your submission thusfar it seems to be fair.
 
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