4CC have petty strong fields since 5-6 years. There is a real competition in all disciplines even with US fed which sometimes sends B teams.
Kihira's, Chen's, Hanyu's, Sui/Han's titles for eg have pretty big weight imo.
World/Olympic medalists without Euro/4CC medals
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4CC have petty strong fields since 5-6 years. There is a real competition in all disciplines even with US fed which sometimes sends B teams.
Kihira's, Chen's, Hanyu's, Sui/Han's titles for eg have pretty big weight imo.
Maybe because of show tours like Ashley Wagner?I find it puzzling that Michelle never attended one.
Yes, it is a really strong competition in non-olympics seasons. But in an olympics year almost all countries send their B teams. "A" team members go only if they volonteer to compete there and it fits their preparation schedule.
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In an Olympic year everything takes second place... look at the number of skaters who retire straight away, or simply bow out of the Worlds that comes afterwards. Of course 4CC and Euros are not as important as these two (which is, well, as it should be?) but I do recall not so long ago people arguing that the GPF was the also-ran in prestige.
Would it be too much to ask if we could make up our minds, hmmmm? (and yes, I'm quoting a duck
and yes, the answer is "probably")
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As for Four Continents, I think the times, they are a-changin'. In 2007, USA sent Kimmie Meisner and Emily Highes (their best) and Canada sent Joannie Rochette. In 2008 Japan sent Mao Asada and Miki Ando, and Canada sent Rochette again (she won two silvers). In 2009 the podium was Yuna Kim, Rochette and Asada (the 2010 Olympic podium).
Last year the podium was Rika Kihira (Japan's best), You Young (Korea's best) and Bradie Tennell (USA's best).
On the men's side, the list of winners has read like a whos's who right from the beginning: Tekeshi Honda, Elvis Stojko, the quad king Li Chengjiang
, Jeffrey Buttle, Honda, Buttle, Evan Lysacek, Nobonari Oda, Lysacek, Daisuke Takahashi, Patrick Chan, Kevin Reynolds (beating Yuzuru Hanyu for the gold), Takahito Mura 
. Denis Ten , Chan, Nathan Chen, Jin Boyang, Shoma Uno, and Hanyu. Some of them were up-and-comers at the time, but still...And for Canadian fans of Ice Dance, Bourne and Kraatz won three times, Dubrueil and Lauzon hit for the circuit with a gold, a silver and a bronze, Virtur and Moir medalled 5 times :eeking:, including 2 gold. Plus, Gilles and Poirier medeled in both of the last two contests and Weaver & Poje and Wing & Lowe also stood on the podium. I woiuldn't exactly call that lineup the B team.
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There are so many good skaters that even in an olympic season, when feds send B teams, a Boyang Jin (4th at olympics the next month) wins with 300+ against Shoma Uno (297) the olympic silver medalist.
His title don't lose weight because it's an olympic season. The field wasn't so weak that a Fernandez could come win with three weeks of training.
:agree:3/4 of these skaters also medaled at gpf and/or worlds/olympics. Not exactly B competitors.As for Four Continents, I think the times, they are a-changin'. In 2007, USA sent Kimmie Meisner and Emily Highes (their best) and Canada sent Joannie Rochette. In 2008 Japan sent Mao Asada and Miki Ando, and Canada sent Rochette again (she won two silvers). In 2009 the podium was Yuna Kim, Rochette and Asada (the 2010 Olympic podium).
Last year the podium was Rika Kihira (Japan's best), You Young (Korea's best) and Bradie Tennell (USA's best).
On the men's side, the list of winners has read like a whos's who right from the beginning: Tekeshi Honda, Elvis Stojko, the quad king Li Chengjiang
Li Chengjiang is interesting. I thought that the first time Chinese flag got raised in men was with Han Yan.
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A large number of the countries that participate in FCC don't have enough skaters to even have A and B teams.
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Hmmf...I didn't think the field was weak at Euros, just that Fernandez was really good to manage it with only 3 weeks of training. Perspectives....
That's a way to see it.
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The men's flight especially at 4CC this past season could've been the Worlds event all on its own.
In an Olympic year everything takes second place... look at the number of skaters who retire straight away, or simply bow out of the Worlds that comes afterwards. Of course 4CC and Euros are not as important as these two (which is, well, as it should be?) but I do recall not so long ago people arguing that the GPF was the also-ran in prestige.
Would it be too much to ask if we could make up our minds, hmmmm? (and yes, I'm quoting a duck
Pretty sure the big countries aren't sending their B team to Europeans in the Olympic season.
Europeans are normally a week earlier than 4CC. 4CC are too close to the Olympic so a lot of skaters would choose not to compete and get more time to adjust.
Also, the Europeans take place somewhere in europe which means there won't be a long distance travel. But to get to 4CC, North American teams or East Asian teams have to travel across the world and deal with the jet lag.
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Hmm, as a European I am probably slightly biased to consider my own continent's champioships as a respected and important competition, but I do think there is also data to examine this question.
The competition calendar in Europe usually places nationals before the end of the year, for most before Christmas, for Russians about at Christmas (but their calendar is different in this respect, they celebrate a week later). Then the Euros are at the end of January leaving plenty of time to get ready for that - Europeans have of course existed for such a long time that adjustments to timing the nationals probably did not have to be made. The timing is also pretty good considering Worlds (2 months) and Olympics (almost 1 month). Olympics years the competitions before it are often a week early anyway. Some of the European skaters have even time to do sth like the Art on Ice tour in Europe before concentrating on Worlds...
Of the more important skating nations in 4CC, USA, Canada and South Korea have their nationals in early to mid-Januarysh, which leaves relatively little time to prepare for the upcoming (major) competition. Japan have theirs in December. The gap from 4CC towards worlds is tolerable (about 1,5 months), Olympics not so, but those years the timing is usually different, a week early. US and Can feds had their nationals about the 4CC week before 1999, but have apparently not seen 4CC as a sufficient reason to adjust the timing of their own nationals in such a way that it would fit more easily into the calendar.
But the perceived closeness to Worlds seems a poor reason not to attend, because the fall season for top skaters is often much tighther, is it not? Two GPs, maybe a CS competition, GPF for some, nationals. In the spring nationals, Euros/4CC and Worlds, but most often not much else. Also, not all European skaters train and live in Europe, Javier Fernández (Mister Euros, eh?) flew to that competition from Canada as do for example Papadakis and Cizeron, James and Morgan, and others as well. The travel is not a hindrance for them.
What is the difference between Euros and 4CC is the regularity of attendance. If you look at the track record for European skaters, there are very few who don't do both Euros and Worlds every season if they possibly can. Said Mister Euros did both every season 2008-2017 and chose to finish his career with the Europeans (one could argue all sorts of things here about why he chose not to attend Worlds 2018 or 2019). The rest of the European medalists in Worlds/Olympics have about the same track record of attendance. It does not matter if Russia wins more than half or almost all the medals (that tradition is much longer than the past couple of seasons), they still go.
When you look at attendance for 4CC skaters, there are not that many top skaters who show up regularly. Nathan Chen so far once, in 2017 (when the 4CC was at the upcoming Olympic facility, so EVERYONE wanted to be there) - 5 Worlds though, incl this years cancelled one. Hanyu 4 times at 4CC, 8 times at Worlds, Miki Ando 4CC twice, Yuna Kim once (2009 in Vancoucer when the competition was at the upcoming Olympic venue), etc. There are some who choose to go to 4CC fairly regularly, Jin, Uno, Mao Asada, Satoko Miyahara to mention the most loyal singles, plus seemingly pairs and ice dance teams (where the dominance of the US and Can teams is pretty hefty, too - one medal to Japan since 1999). But it is apparently not the same kind of must-go competition for everyone as Europeans are...
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The competition calendar in Europe usually places nationals before the end of the year, for most before Christmas, for Russians about at Christmas (but their calendar is different in this respect, they celebrate a week later). Then the Euros are at the end of January leaving plenty of time to get ready for that - Europeans have of course existed for such a long time that adjustments to timing the nationals probably did not have to be made. The timing is also pretty good considering Worlds (2 months) and Olympics (almost 1 month). Olympics years the competitions before it are often a week early anyway. Some of the European skaters have even time to do sth like the Art on Ice tour in Europe before concentrating on Worlds...
Of the more important skating nations in 4CC, USA, Canada and South Korea have their nationals in early to mid-Januarysh, which leaves relatively little time to prepare for the upcoming (major) competition. Japan have theirs in December. The gap from 4CC towards worlds is tolerable (about 1,5 months), Olympics not so, but those years the timing is usually different, a week early. US and Can feds had their nationals about the 4CC week before 1999, but have apparently not seen 4CC as a sufficient reason to adjust the timing of their own nationals in such a way that it would fit more easily into the calendar.
But the perceived closeness to Worlds seems a poor reason not to attend, because the fall season for top skaters is often much tighther, is it not? Two GPs, maybe a CS competition, GPF for some, nationals. In the spring nationals, Euros/4CC and Worlds, but most often not much else. Also, not all European skaters train and live in Europe, Javier Fernández (Mister Euros, eh?) flew to that competition from Canada as do for example Papadakis and Cizeron, James and Morgan, and others as well. The travel is not a hindrance for them.
What is the difference between Euros and 4CC is the regularity of attendance. If you look at the track record for European skaters, there are very few who don't do both Euros and Worlds every season if they possibly can. Said Mister Euros did both every season 2008-2017 and chose to finish his career with the Europeans (one could argue all sorts of things here about why he chose not to attend Worlds 2018 or 2019). The rest of the European medalists in Worlds/Olympics have about the same track record of attendance. It does not matter if Russia wins more than half or almost all the medals (that tradition is much longer than the past couple of seasons), they still go.
When you look at attendance for 4CC skaters, there are not that many top skaters who show up regularly. Nathan Chen so far once, in 2017 (when the 4CC was at the upcoming Olympic facility, so EVERYONE wanted to be there) - 5 Worlds though, incl this years cancelled one. Hanyu 4 times at 4CC, 8 times at Worlds, Miki Ando 4CC twice, Yuna Kim once (2009 in Vancoucer when the competition was at the upcoming Olympic venue), etc. There are some who choose to go to 4CC fairly regularly, Jin, Uno, Mao Asada, Satoko Miyahara to mention the most loyal singles, plus seemingly pairs and ice dance teams (where the dominance of the US and Can teams is pretty hefty, too - one medal to Japan since 1999). But it is apparently not the same kind of must-go competition for everyone as Europeans are...
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Euros are older than worlds so i guess there is an historic prestige. 4CC is 21 years old so it's a foetus. It has more a competitive prestige than an historic one. People give more respect and worth to what is old.
Maybe by the time it become a baby US skaters will show less disregard (CAN and JPN top skaters show up quite frequently) and some feds will organize their nats earlier.
Maybe by the time it become a baby US skaters will show less disregard (CAN and JPN top skaters show up quite frequently) and some feds will organize their nats earlier.
Until the rules for getting the minimum TES were changed, some didn't even have Senior/Junior teams, in the sense that they sent Juniors to 4CC.
There's really no ontological distinction between the categories "junior" and "senior" when it comes to international figure skating.
The rules allow for a fairly wide overlap in the age eligibility. Anyone who was at least 15 and not yet 19 on July 1 (or not yet 21 for male pair/dance partners) is eligible to compete in either junior or senior events. There is no requirement or expectation that skaters be labeled as either junior or senior for the season, by themselves or by their federations.
As far as I know, the only restrictions are that skaters can't participate in both the Grand Prix and the Junior Grand Prix in the same season, and they can't compete at Junior Worlds if they have already medaled at an ISU senior championships.
Otherwise, for skaters within that age overlap, competing at a junior competition one week and a senior competition a week or two later, or vice versa, is perfectly acceptable. Skaters from small, medium, and also large federations might end up doing this, for various reasons. They'll adjust their programs to the rules of whatever competition they're entered in, and the scores they earn there are now valid as minimum technical scores to qualify for championships at the same level. But the skaters don't change their official status in any permanent way based on what international competitions they entered most recently. The only thing that officially lets them in or keeps them out of either level for the next season would be a birthday.
And different federations have different rules for their national competitions. Sometimes skaters compete at one level nationally and another level internationally because of age or because of tests they have passed, as well as at both levels internationally. In some federations it is even possible to compete at both junior and senior levels domestically.
So it always rubs me the wrong way when people describe a skater within this age range as "a junior" or "a senior." They're skaters . . . who are legally allowed to compete internationally at both junior and senior competition. Why slap labels on people?
The rules allow for a fairly wide overlap in the age eligibility. Anyone who was at least 15 and not yet 19 on July 1 (or not yet 21 for male pair/dance partners) is eligible to compete in either junior or senior events. There is no requirement or expectation that skaters be labeled as either junior or senior for the season, by themselves or by their federations.
As far as I know, the only restrictions are that skaters can't participate in both the Grand Prix and the Junior Grand Prix in the same season, and they can't compete at Junior Worlds if they have already medaled at an ISU senior championships.
Otherwise, for skaters within that age overlap, competing at a junior competition one week and a senior competition a week or two later, or vice versa, is perfectly acceptable. Skaters from small, medium, and also large federations might end up doing this, for various reasons. They'll adjust their programs to the rules of whatever competition they're entered in, and the scores they earn there are now valid as minimum technical scores to qualify for championships at the same level. But the skaters don't change their official status in any permanent way based on what international competitions they entered most recently. The only thing that officially lets them in or keeps them out of either level for the next season would be a birthday.
And different federations have different rules for their national competitions. Sometimes skaters compete at one level nationally and another level internationally because of age or because of tests they have passed, as well as at both levels internationally. In some federations it is even possible to compete at both junior and senior levels domestically.
So it always rubs me the wrong way when people describe a skater within this age range as "a junior" or "a senior." They're skaters . . . who are legally allowed to compete internationally at both junior and senior competition. Why slap labels on people?
Yuma Kagiyama competed at junior worlds after winning a medal at 4CC.
So does the restriction apply only to a medal from Worlds, but not Euros/4Cs?
Probably.
I wonder if this already happened. A skater who medals at senior worlds but compete in juniors competitions the next season.
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