ISU Announces 2021 Worlds entries

Lunalovesskating · Jul 13, 2020

The ISU has just published that the entries for 2021 Worlds will be the same as the entries from 2020 Worlds.
https://twitter.com/aim_high__/status/1282684413671665664?s=20

It apparently means that the number of entries per country stays the same.

Another change: The JGP will take place as well as the Challenger Series. The Challenger Series will not be considered a series but will be counted as individual events. There will be no price money however skaters will still receive points for World standing.
My opinion: absolutely unfair. Many countries do not have a Challenger event and many skaters will not be able to travel to different countries for the Challenger due to travel restrictions. Skaters with Challengers in their countries will have a bigger advantage and will be able to earn more World standing points than others, this could affect GP assignments during the Olympic season! For example JSF just said that no Japanese skater will be going to a Challenger nor the JGP. This will affect those skates immensly as Japan has no Challenger.
https://twitter.com/AnythingGOE/status/1282687453795680257?s=20

ladyjane · Jul 13, 2020

Although I understand the reasoning (I only have to think of 'my' Pair who had qualified for Worlds for the first time), but I had hoped they would let everybody who had qualified for 2020 also be allowed to skate in 2021, but that it would be possible to qualify in the fall en that subsequently the number of skaters would be greater than planned for 2020. Also, in the case of countries with multiple spots, that these countries would be able to decide for themselves who could go, and that it would not be fixed beforehand. However, I do understand that this is a complicated situation as it would also seem unfair for those who made it to the world's would have to qualify all over again. Mixed bag.

Ziotic · Jul 13, 2020

I think they mean by nation, not the actual skaters. It doesn’t make sense the other way as people have retired/split and will be injured and such.

drivingmissdaisy · Jul 13, 2020

Lunalovesskating said:
My opinion: absolutely unfair. Many countries do not have a Challenger event and many skaters will not be able to travel to different countries for the Challenger due to travel restrictions. Skaters with Challengers in their countries will have a bigger advantage and will be able to earn more World standing points than others, this could affect GP assignments during the Olympic season! For example JSF just said that no Japanese skater will be going to a Challenger nor the JGP. This will affect those skates immensly as Japan has no Challenger.
https://twitter.com/AnythingGOE/status/1282687453795680257?s=20

If Japan chooses not to send skaters to international events, then it needs to figure out a way to hold a Challenger event so its skaters can earn points. Treating this year as a throwaway season, and not have any events count towards standings, simply because Japan isn't participating in low level events is not fair, either.

Lunalovesskating · Jul 13, 2020

drivingmissdaisy said:
If Japan chooses not to send skaters to international events, then it needs to figure out a way to hold a Challenger event so its skaters can earn points. Treating this year as a throwaway season, and not have any events count towards standings, simply because Japan isn't participating in low level events is not fair, either.

This will not only affect Japanese skaters but also all other skater who cannot travel to a different country due to travel restrictions. I doubt that it is that easy for each country to just create their own Challenger on a whim and who knows if ISU will even allow that. The ISU could have simply said that the Challengers will not count towards World standing this season and it would have been a better decision.

yume · Jul 13, 2020

Can't they give more spots and organize a preliminary round at worlds like before? It would make that situation a bit less unfair for those who had won their spots for 2020.

removof · Jul 13, 2020

With the coronavirus the worlds 2021 will be probably cancelled

kolyadafan2002 · Jul 13, 2020

removof said:
With the coronavirus the worlds 2021 will be probably cancelled

doubt it, but possible.

As for response to the OP, as worlds 2021 is used as a qualification for the 2022 Olympics, I feel this is very unfair on countries which only have 1 spot, and had no chance to earn more due to the 2020 worlds cancellation (e.g Canada, who has 3 skaters of what I'd consider "Olympic Standard."

Flying Feijoa · Jul 13, 2020

kolyadafan2002 said:
doubt it, but possible.

As for response to the OP, as worlds 2021 is used as a qualification for the 2022 Olympics, I feel this is very unfair on countries which only have 1 spot, and had no chance to earn more due to the 2020 worlds cancellation (e.g Canada, who has 3 skaters of what I'd consider "Olympic Standard."

And at least 4 more if you count dance and pairs! I get that you mean the situation with men's singles though... I feel for them too

Hoping they make Olympic qualification (and quota determination) more flexible, e.g. by giving more opportunities besides Nebelhorn 2021.

elektra blue · Jul 13, 2020

is it just challengers and jgp? what about the senior gp?

drivingmissdaisy · Jul 13, 2020

kolyadafan2002 said:
As for response to the OP, as worlds 2021 is used as a qualification for the 2022 Olympics, I feel this is very unfair on countries which only have 1 spot, and had no chance to earn more due to the 2020 worlds cancellation (e.g Canada, who has 3 skaters of what I'd consider "Olympic Standard."

At least for ladies, it is going to be really hard for countries with even two skaters to qualify three for the Olympics. Russia, Japan, and USA alone will likely account for most of the top 8 placements, and I can't think of any other country who could reasonably have two skaters placing in the top 8. There really isn't a solution that would please everyone.

Blades of Passion · Jul 14, 2020

The entire qualification process needs to be changed, it's always been stupid, and these corona times we are living in show it especially. Athletes should qualify on their own merit, plain and simple. It makes no sense to use 1 event from an entire year prior, to qualify completely different athletes (sometimes, but even if it's the same athletes, they might not be in the same shape) for another event.

sowcow · Jul 15, 2020

Blades of Passion said:
The entire qualification process needs to be changed, it's always been stupid, and these corona times we are living in show it especially. Athletes should qualify on their own merit, plain and simple. It makes no sense to use 1 event from an entire year prior, to qualify completely different athletes (sometimes, but even if it's the same athletes, they might not be in the same shape) for another event.

I agree that the qualification process needs to change; or at least be opened up to allow for individual skaters who 'shine' and outperform others in the months leading up to the Worlds.

Perhaps as a '1st step', the ISU might allow those who qualify for the GPF to also win an automatic Worlds entry.

So, an extra 6 men, 6 women, 5 pairs and 5 dance teams at worlds (which represents only 1 extra warm-up group per event!)
.
That way, those countries with the very best skaters in each discipline (who, one would assume would qualify for the GPF) could use their 'usual number' of entries for Worlds (based on the previous World's results) to offer them to other skaters within their Federation.
- As example, Russia would have been able to send 6 ladies to Worlds: the 3 'jumping beans' who qualified for the GPF, plus 3 other ladies of the Federations choosing (based on the Russian ladies results at Worlds the previous year).
This would certainly provide extra incentive for skaters to really perform in the GP events in order to make the GPF (and not have to worry about their own National Championships, or Europeans to qualify).
- The level of competition at the 6 GP events would definitely rise accordingly!
- And really, for those who work hard (and early) each year to medal in their respective GP assignments in order to qualify for the GPF, they could use (and deserve) a bit of 'downtime' during the traditional 'National Championships' period (after Christmas); before having to ramp up their training again for Worlds (...and maybe Europeans or 4CC just before Worlds).

I'm sure I'm not the first to suggest this idea (...it's not that radical an idea TBH!). It seems a logical progression to begin to open up (some of) the Worlds entries based on 'individual merit' from that same season. Has it ever been seriously discussed at an ISU meeting?

Sow

TallyT · Jul 15, 2020

sowcow said:
I'm sure I'm not the first to suggest this idea (...it's not that radical an idea TBH!). It seems a logical progression to begin to open up (some of) the Worlds entries based on 'individual merit' from that same season. Has it ever been seriously discussed at an ISU meeting?

Sow

To be honest the idea of adding more places has been thrashed to death and then reanimated and thrashed some more :laugh:

currently pretty much always by fans of the current nation on top. I will simply repeat a small and daunting but imperative fact from a previous thrashing.

In 2019, the short program for the mens discipline at Worlds took just over 5 hours.
In 2019, the same program for the ladies took just over 6 hours.

Actually and deliberately changing the rules to make it even longer is almost certainly not going to happen while the ISU retain one sane brain cell. I accept that the ISU may not have this...

Blades of Passion · Jul 15, 2020

The event wouldn't be longer. Very low ranked skaters simply wouldn't be going to Worlds/Olympics in the first place. You could take the top 36 skaters (with a cap of 5 per country, or perhaps 4 per country for the Olympics, since it is supposed to be about bringing countries together) based upon World standing prior to the event.

TallyT · Jul 15, 2020

Blades of Passion said:
The event wouldn't be longer. Very low ranked skaters simply wouldn't be going to Worlds/Olympics in the first place. You could take the top 36 skaters (with a cap of 5 per country, or perhaps 4 per country for the Olympics, since it is supposed to be about bringing countries together) based upon World standing prior to the event.

Yes, that was also thrashed out and as I understand it, you have to persuade the smaller/minor feds to vote their skaters even further out of going to Worlds/Olympics so that the big feds can send more. In the words of well, someone... lotsa luck with that one.

drivingmissdaisy · Jul 15, 2020

Blades of Passion said:
The event wouldn't be longer. Very low ranked skaters simply wouldn't be going to Worlds/Olympics in the first place. You could take the top 36 skaters (with a cap of 5 per country, or perhaps 4 per country for the Olympics, since it is supposed to be about bringing countries together) based upon World standing prior to the event.

I think a big problem implementing this is that there just aren't enough figure skating events to fairly rank skaters. Some who might compete for the last few of those 36 spots might not even have GP events, because those assignments reflect excellence from the previous season. That puts them at a huge disadvantage when they have to accrue their points from Senior B's with fewer ranking points available, whereas a lucky few who are awarded host picks will get a leg up simply based on their nationality.

For me, the current limit of 3 per country is good because it allows any nation to sweep the podium, but also assures that the sport continues to provide competitive opportunities so that we might see a Yuna Kim or Javier Fernandez in the future from places where skating isn't as popular as it is now. Personally, I'm willing to allow fourth (or lower) ranked skaters from a country to watch from home to increase international participation so we get a greater variety of athletes, coaches, judges, and technical panel members involved with the sport at all levels.

Blades of Passion · Jul 15, 2020

TallyT said:
Yes, that was also thrashed out and as I understand it, you have to persuade the smaller/minor feds to vote their skaters even further out of going to Worlds/Olympics so that the big feds can send more. In the words of well, someone... lotsa luck with that one.

ISU needs to change its rules. Federations don't really matter, it's about the skaters. Small federations shouldn't have a disproportionate amount of voting power in the first place. It's not as if they can do anything about it if ISU takes executive action to change the rules. There is no other skating organization with Olympic sway. What are they going to do, leave? Won't get them anywhere.

drivingmissdaisy said:
I think a big problem implementing this is that there just aren't enough figure skating events to fairly rank skaters. Some who might compete for the last few of those 36 spots might not even have GP events, because those assignments reflect excellence from the previous season. That puts them at a huge disadvantage when they have to accrue their points from Senior B's with fewer ranking points available, whereas a lucky few who are awarded host picks will get a leg up simply based on their nationality.

No, that's not how it would work. The current ISU world ranking system is also stupid and needs to be changed. There are (were) plenty of competitions for lower ranked skaters to prove their worth. World ranking should just be something like taking the 2 highest scores from a skater per season, weighted proportionally based upon recency of the season.

Skater Boy · Jul 16, 2020

kolyadafan2002 said:
doubt it, but possible.

As for response to the OP, as worlds 2021 is used as a qualification for the 2022 Olympics, I feel this is very unfair on countries which only have 1 spot, and had no chance to earn more due to the 2020 worlds cancellation (e.g Canada, who has 3 skaters of what I'd consider "Olympic Standard."

I was thinking they could take the world rankings/points and use those to determine the number of skaters you can enter - it probably would not change the overall number by much ie look at the top 10 or 12. If you have a skater in the top 3 you get 3 spots - which may or m ay not change your countries number of sots. Likewise the rest of the top ten are assured two spots. I don't think it woudl change the final number which can be weeded out in the short with the top 24 qualifying. So one of the few changes is I am pretty sure I recall that Canada had two men in the top ten based on the Grand Prix rankings and so would get two spots. (Only requiring one man in top ten).

But life isn't fair.

drivingmissdaisy · Jul 16, 2020

Skater Boy said:
I was thinking they could take the world rankings/points and use those to determine the number of skaters you can enter - it probably would not change the overall number by much ie look at the top 10 or 12. If you have a skater in the top 3 you get 3 spots - which may or m ay not change your countries number of sots. Likewise the rest of the top ten are assured two spots. I don't think it woudl change the final number which can be weeded out in the short with the top 24 qualifying. So one of the few changes is I am pretty sure I recall that Canada had two men in the top ten based on the Grand Prix rankings and so would get two spots. (Only requiring one man in top ten).

But life isn't fair.

I do agree with BoP that using an individual's success is a better way to issue international assignments. For example, Yuna Kim winning a World title didn't demonstrate that South Korea had any depth beyond the top skater, and thus it really had nothing to do with how deserving the 2nd or 3rd ranked South Korean women were of being awarded World/Olympic spots. Overall, the current system of requiring a minimum score AND being selected by the national federation for the spot(s) seems pretty fair to me, as well as the countries having to demonstrate depth with two solid finishers to earn a third spot (in most cases).

ISU Announces 2021 Worlds entries

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