Rehashing the 2014 and 2018 Oly Team Event | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Rehashing the 2014 and 2018 Oly Team Event

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CanadianSkaterGuy

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I did not suggest for a moment that KO as in a position to challenge in Sochi. My point was Adelina was never regarded as a contender given her previous Senior competitions/acumen. However, she was on home ice and things happened when it comes to home-cooking.

Well the homecooking was particularly prominent in Russia. The fact that Sotnikova’s PCS skyrocketed from anything she had done before and Lipnitskaia’s PCS actually went up from her team free skate to her individual free skate says it all.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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All 3 of the medal-winning teams bombed the Men's SP, so it's unavoidable wherever you look; what matters is the rankings. Kolyada was correctly placed for what he put out on the ice. Patrick Chan and Nathan Chen only should have placed 6th/7th in the segment, just above Kolyada.

Nathan Chen being propped up is less impactful, although that still could have changed the course of things too. If USA was in jeopardy of losing the Bronze medal, would Adam Rippon be doing the LP? We all know Nathan Chen was going to score much higher in the LP.

I can see an argument for Chan/Chen being placed behind Rizzo, and maybe even Cha. But Han Yan bombed as Chan/Chen did and is behind definitely Chan and arguably Chen too.

Also important to note that while Cha went clean, he doesn’t have nearly the quality of Chan’s skating/spins/footwork, nor did he attempt a quad (Chan’s BV was 3.15 higher). Cha had clean elements but not high quality elements. Of course, Chan’s PCS had no business being above 45 getting 9.00+ for performance/IN with 2 falls but there is an argument for him being above Cha - who was essentially a junior place in a senior competition (kudos to him for doing well though, on home ice - so you can’t say he didn’t have that advantage when it came to how he was assessed). Even if Chan’s PCS were dropped as low as 8.25’s across the board for every component he still would have edged out Cha.

Not sure if Russia would have changed their game plan and even if they were able to swap Z/E with T/M, the best they could have done was still 2nd. The team entries are predetermined, and it would be devastating to Z/E if they randomly denied them an Olympic medal just to better their chances at gold when silver was pretty secure and the Canadian team was slated to maintain/expand their lead going into the FS. Canada was keeping Chan/D&R/V&M in both segments, and fielded the reigning World silver and bronze medalists in ladies. They brought their A game. The key for Russia to even challenge for was Kolyada beating Chan in the SP and with at least 1 or 2 skaters placing between them. Kolyada bombed and removed any chance of that regardless of how the judges placed Chan in the SP. Even if you dropped Chan to 7th, and T/M somehow came 1st for Russia in the team FS, Canada would have still won.

Kolyada was even worse scored with errors on every jumping pass and still getting 9’s in his components. Like, wth, judge 4?!?! :laugh:
 
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As I said, all three of the men in the SP who medalled owed their medals to their teams. They probably know it.

That's the nature of a team competition. Some stars stand out, the whole team prospers.

Who knows? Maybe Chan's comforting presence on the team made Gabby Daleman skate better and gain an extra point. If, if, if...
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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That's the good thing with this competition. You bomb but you still get a medal for the effort. Like at a fair.

Those three medalists bombed. It should make the final result uncontroversial.

Yes they bombed but almost everyone underperformed in that team SP.

Sometimes get placed high (or even win!) with 2 falls - even at the Olympics! ;)
 

yume

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Yes they bombed but almost everyone underperformed in that team SP.

Sometimes get placed high (or even win!) with 2 falls - even at the Olympics! ;)

Yeah. Some others win or get on podium with more than that even. Some never needed to do a single clean competition in their career to get the gold.
 

Blades of Passion

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I can see an argument for Chan/Chen being placed behind Rizzo, and maybe even Jun-hwan Cha. But Han Yan bombed as Chan/Chen did and is behind definitely Chan and arguably Chen too.

Han Yan did better than Chan and Chen, he at least hit his Triple-Triple combo, and his “falls” weren’t as visibly thudding. He had to take the deduction because of the technicality of arms on the ice, but he didn’t fully go down. His overall performance was better than theirs, more emotive and attuned to the music, and he has sublime skating skills, so Chan can’t even claim to deserve some kind of significant lead on that component either.

Also important to note that while Jun-hwan Cha went clean, he doesn’t have nearly the quality of Chan’s skating/spins/footwork, nor did he attempt a quad (Chan’s BV was 3.15 higher). Essentially a junior in a senior competition

Jun-hwan did not have worse spins than Chan, he showed some better flexibility, in fact. Your “he’s a junior” line is empty rhetoric, the typical kind of bad reasoning used to hold newcomers down. His performance was energetic and showed better engagement and attention to detail than Chan, and his basic skating ability was fine enough considering the situation.

The key for Russia to even challenge for was Kolyada beating Chan in the SP and with at least 1 or 2 skaters placing between them. Kolyada bombed and removed any chance of that regardless of how the judges placed Chan in the SP. Even if you dropped Chan to 7th, and T/M somehow came 1st for Russia in the team FS, Canada would have still won

No, Russia would have won if Chan was 7th in the SP and T/M won the team portion. They would have been tied on rankings (although Chan did not deserve to win the LP, but let’s say he did) and Russia would have won the tiebreaker.

Kolyada did not need to beat Chan in the SP and T/M didn’t necessarily need to win the Pairs LP either, 2nd could be fine for them. Chan being 6th in the SP and 3rd in the LP, with Aliev being swapped into the LP (which seriously should have happened, given his Europeans showing and Kolyada’s issues) and winning there, would also give Russia the victory.
 

4everchan

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you know... i can give you so many scenarios including your wishes to put chan lower, compensating...
the canadian girls could both have placed 2nd in their respective segment (they were 2nd and 3rd at previous worlds)
the italians could have surprised the Russians in dance, especially in the SD
the french could have used their better team for dance and placed right below tessa and scott, to create more gap...
you keep talking about aliev but he wasn't even in the list for Russia... simply enough because they wanted to save TM from doing the long, pairs being close to team event...
adam could have outscored mika... he was one point behind...


do you want me to try a version where the USA wins gold? I am sure am creative enough to make any country win based on any whatifs.

it seems like some want to create a controversy with this win, when there truly is not.
 

NanaPat

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you know... i can give you so many scenarios including your wishes to put chan lower, compensating...
the canadian girls could both have placed 2nd in their respective segment (they were 2nd and 3rd at previous worlds)
the italians could have surprised the Russians in dance, especially in the SD
the french could have used their better team for dance and placed right below tessa and scott, to create more gap...
you keep talking about aliev but he wasn't even in the list for Russia... simply enough because they wanted to save TM from doing the long, pairs being close to team event...
adam could have outscored mika... he was one point behind...


do you want me to try a version where the USA wins gold? I am sure am creative enough to make any country win based on any whatifs.

it seems like some want to create a controversy with this win, when there truly is not.

I'd like the scenario where Italy wins bronze. But I can do it myself; I was doing it in real life at the time, but alas it was not to be. Imagine the exploding heads from that one! Also the cries of "no fair, they didn't use all their allowed substitutes."
 

Blades of Passion

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you know... i can give you so many scenarios including your wishes to put chan lower...
the canadian girls could both have placed 2nd in their respective segment (they were 2nd and 3rd at previous worlds)

This is a misunderstanding of what the issue is.

I've never done any "whatif" of someone performing differently in the SP. How the selected people skated there, it's final, it happened. What matters is how things were judged, and I think the judging was atrocious. Arguing for Daleman to rank better in the LP is also a poor argument IMO, she skated her best and got beaten, and was already overscored because of that world medalist reputation.

3 points in SP team standing makes a huge difference for how the event can play out afterwards, and it's indeed controversial that Patrick Chan and Nathan Chen both received this big undeserved point lead for performances they bombed. I haven't done much of a "whatif" about any of the actual selected people in the LP skating differently, but when someone gets so overmarked like that, it does have a very real psychological effect. Chan is the only person who bombed the SP, but didn't get punished for it, and then continued to the LP. It's relevant to talk about how much worse he'd be feeling if he was deservedly ranked lower in the SP, but as it is, I already think his LP effort should have placed below Rippon's, so...

I'd like the scenario where Italy wins bronze. But I can do it myself; I was doing it in real life at the time, but alas it was not to be.

It was a mistake for Italy to not use Marchei/Hotarek in the SP. They were the better ranked team, in both segments, at both the previous World Championships and the recent European Championships. If they wanted a medal, then they should have gone full force, instead of giving Monica/Guarise a free participation slot. If Nathan Chen had been correctly marked down in the SP, and Italy had placed 4th in the Pairs SP with Marchei/Hotarek, then there actually would have been a huge chance for Italy to win that medal.

Like I was talking about before, I really wonder if USA would have kept Nathan in the LP at that point, because despite his SP troubles, he was still extremely likely to pull the biggest LP score, and in the scenario especially with Italy being higher in Pairs, USA would have been in a huge hole after the SP to win a medal, a 5 point deficit vs Italy. They would have desperately needed their singles skaters to make up the gap in the LP, which Mirai miraculously was able to achieve, and although I feel Rippon deserved to win the LP with how things played out (although, again, it could play out differently with Aliev being sent to the LP), would he really be the guy sent?
 

4everchan

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This is a misunderstanding of what the issue is.

I've never done any "whatif" of someone performing differently in the SP. How the selected people skated there, it's final, it happened. What matters is how things were judged, and I think the judging was atrocious.

well, you are entitled to your opinion here but the judges have spoken, and that is done and final. No need to dwell on what if the judges had done differently, because then, who knows how the skaters would have reacted in the LP or who would have been chosen to skate.... there is really nothing here you can argue that will not include at least a what if.

maybe you should write fan fiction
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Han Yan did better than Chan and Chen, he at least hit his Triple-Triple combo, and his “falls” weren’t as visibly thudding. He had to take the deduction because of the technicality of arms on the ice, but he didn’t fully go down. His overall performance was better than theirs, more emotive and attuned to the music, and he has sublime skating skills, so Chan can’t even claim to deserve some kind of significant lead on that component either.

Jun-hwan did not have worse spins than Chan, he showed some better flexibility, in fact. Your “he’s a junior” line is empty rhetoric, the typical kind of bad reasoning used to hold newcomers down. His performance was energetic and showed better engagement and attention to detail than Chan, and his basic skating ability was fine enough considering the situation.

No, Russia would have won if Chan was 7th in the SP and T/M won the team portion. They would have been tied on rankings (although Chan did not deserve to win the LP, but let’s say he did) and Russia would have won the tiebreaker.

Kolyada did not need to beat Chan in the SP and T/M didn’t necessarily need to win the Pairs LP either, 2nd could be fine for them. Chan being 6th in the SP and 3rd in the LP, with Aliev being swapped into the LP (which seriously should have happened, given his Europeans showing and Kolyada’s issues) and winning there, would also give Russia the victory.

Ah yes, your usual math crunching to make your desired scenario that didn't happen hypothetically happen. :popcorn: It's one thing to suggest Yan is even on par emotionally or in terms of "engagement" with Chan, but I had to smirk at "his falls weren't visibly as thudding, he only put his arms down!" As if that isn't a major error that mars the performance. As for his 3-3 combo, it was poorly executed - it even got negative GOE. That's not what I would call "hitting it" - not to mention I would place Chen's 4F+2T in higher regard difficulty-wise than Yan's 3Z+3T if we are talking about successful combos. Yan's spins were good, but his program was a snooze (IMO) and the scores reflected it. Like Chan and Chen, he was off - even his best jump the 3A he not only fell but he actually underrotated it. If you think his performance was better, you're entitled to your opinion but you're clearly justing trying to hoist Yan above them just because it makes your math work out and supports your argument. :laugh:

As for the suggestion of Aliev being swapped into the LP, that makes absolutely zero sense -- especially given that Kolyada scored 173.57 in the team LP, and 177.56 in the individual LP, while Aliev scored 168.53 (with 2 falls) and 13th in the individual LP. I mean if you want to play in what-if hypotheticals that push for a Russia win, at least suggest the way more reasonable hindsight scenario that Aliev should have done the SP (where he scored 98.98 in the individual SP which would have come 2nd in the team SP). But then I could say well in hindsight, Canada could have fielded Messing in the SP and with his 85.15 from the individual competition he would have matched Chan's 3rd place in the team SP anyways.

That was easily Canada's competition. On paper and in execution (especially in the free skate) they easily won. Trying to manipulate the numbers into a fantasy situation where Russia wins is totally your prerogative but there are so many what-ifs that are removed from reality (even looking at the individual results, like suggesting T/M could have beaten D/R when their individual LP didn't even come close to D/R's team LP), that it's laughable to suggest that better judging (or rather, judging that matches your scorecard) in the men's team SP, somehow could have turned the tide in Russia's favour.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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This is a misunderstanding of what the issue is.

I've never done any "whatif" of someone performing differently in the SP. How the selected people skated there, it's final, it happened. What matters is how things were judged, and I think the judging was atrocious. Arguing for Daleman to rank better in the LP is also a poor argument IMO, she skated her best and got beaten, and was already overscored because of that world medalist reputation.

3 points in SP team standing makes a huge difference for how the event can play out afterwards, and it's indeed controversial that Patrick Chan and Nathan Chen both received this big undeserved point lead for performances they bombed. I haven't done much of a "whatif" about any of the actual selected people in the LP skating differently, but when someone gets so overmarked like that, it does have a very real psychological effect. Chan is the only person who bombed the SP, but didn't get punished for it, and then continued to the LP. It's relevant to talk about how much worse he'd be feeling if he was deservedly ranked lower in the SP, but as it is, I already think his LP effort should have placed below Rippon's, so...

Arguing for Rippon to place higher in the LP is a poor argument. He skated his best and got beaten. :rolleye: Chan's PCS was too high (should have been about a 90), but there's no way that Rippon should have had higher PCS than Chan, even with Chan's errors. Maybe if Rippon were a Jason Brown quality skater but he was/is not.


I would say your Chan being "the only person not punished and moved onto the LP" (when only 5 countries move on, and 2 of them chose to field different skaters) is pure straw-manning, but that's not even a correct assertion - as Kolyada also bombed the SP but wasn't punished on his scores. Chan at least did a 3Z+2T combo (albeit poorly). Kolyada got 9's after making errors on all 3 jumping passes - 2 falls and a popped 3A. One judge gave him 9.25/9.00/9.00/9.50 :unsure:/9.25 (i.e. 46 PCS) and another judge gave him 9.25/9.00/9.00/9.25/9.25 (= 45.75 PCS). :laugh: His placement wouldn't have changed since Fentz was so far back, but his PCS was 42.41 with 3 major errors. He even got a slew of -2's for his opening quad fall. Of course, Chen and Chan also had ridiculous scoring too with their whack of 9's for their hot mess SPs, but let's not pretend that Kolyada wasn't gifted himself when in fact his score could/should have been worse.
 

Blades of Passion

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LOL @ suggesting Yan is even on par emotionally or in terms of "engagement" - His spins were good, but his program was a snooze

Why do I suspect you, and the judges, would feel differently if Han Yan was a World Champion skating for Canada, and Patrick had been a "nobody" skater for China? Funny how that works out.

As for the suggestion of Aliev being swapped into the LP, that makes absolutely zero sense

It makes perfect sense. Aliev at Europeans skated better in the LP than Kolyada EVER had, and Kolyada after horrifically bombing the SP wasn't showing trustworthiness.

I mean if you want to play in what-if hypotheticals that push for a Russia win, at least suggest the way more reasonable hindsight Aliev should have hypothetically done the SP (where he scored 98.98 in the individual SP which would have come 2nd in the team SP).

Why are you talking about things that happened after the Team competition? What you're saying is lunacy, getting into time-traveling perspectives not available at the time; far removed from what has been discussed. Kolyada doing the SP made more sense because several times that season he delivered a massive SP score.

I would say your Chan being "the only person not punished and moved onto the LP" is pure straw-manning, but that's not even a correct assertion - as Kolyada also bombed the SP but wasn't punished on his scores.

Kolyada placed 8th in the SP. He WAS punished, in terms of what ultimately mattered: the team score.

Arguing for Rippon to place higher in the LP is a poor argument. He skated his best and got beaten. :rolleye: Chan's PCS was too high (should have been about a 90), but there's no way that Rippon should have had higher PCS than Chan, even with Chan's errors. Maybe if Rippon were a Jason Brown quality skater but he was/is not.

Arguing for Chan to get 90 PCS for that performances, yikes. Just no. Rippon certainly was a "Jason Brown quality" skater in terms of performance and interpretation; perhaps even better on interpretation with that program, actually. He had excellent spins as well, better than Patrick's, and the addition of the +3Loop combo.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Why do I suspect you, and the judges, would feel differently if Han Yan was a World Champion skating for Canada, and Patrick had been a "nobody" skater for China? Funny how that works out.

It makes perfect sense. Aliev at Europeans skated better in the LP than Kolyada EVER had, and Kolyada after horrifically bombing the SP wasn't showing trustworthiness.

Han Yan's skating isn't up to par with Chan's. That's why Chan was a World Champion. And why he deserved to have beaten Yan in the team SP. If you disagree that's your own opinion but it's not reflected in results or protocols. Yan even skating perfectly never got over 86 PCS, whereas even with bad skates Chan scored near or above 90 due to the quality of his skating.

Why are you talking about things that happened after the Team competition? What you're saying is lunacy, getting into time-traveling perspectives not available at the time; far removed from what has been discussed. Kolyada doing the SP made more sense because several times that season he delivered a massive SP score.

LOL, you're the one coming up with time-travelling whatif scenarios as to the psychology of the Russian team if the men's SP was scored differently and running through the scenarios to optimize them for an unlikely Russian win. I'm talking about the individual competition as the best representation of how a skater who didn't compete in the team event COULD have competed in the team event, being mere days after it. While you're using a completely different competition (Euros) in which half the world wasn't there.. Your assertion was that Aliev or T/M could have won the team free - based on what? Them getting freeskate PBs in Russia at Euros a month earlier? Lunacy, indeed. :laugh: I was using their actual Olympic freeskates as a representation of how they could have competed in the team, which most would agree is far more logical. You're only using freeskate results from Euros because it supports your argument that T/M could have beaten D/R or Aliev would have done better than Kolyada.

Kolyada placed 8th in the SP. He WAS punished, in terms of what ultimately mattered: the team score.

But this placement was his own doing. He was punished because he failed to do all 3 jumping passes. Had he done even one clean jumping pass - or even a 3Z+3T, he would have been 3rd. The same way if Chan had tripled his quad, or not done a 2T on his 3Z+2T, he would have been in 7th instead of 3rd.

Cha/Rizzo didn't have quads yet and didn't attempt them which put their base value lower than Chan's - otherwise they would have beaten him. ,Yan underrotated his 3A and got 2.90 points (1.9 with the fall) - in the individual SP he nailed it and got 11.50 points for it. Chen popped his 4T when even a 3T would have put him above Chan in 3rd.

Instead of blaming the judges for not matching up with your math sometimes you need to just accept the fact that the skaters didn't deliver. Since you have it in for check, you could say that Canada/Chan was lucky that Yan/Chen/Kolyada all bombed, but that's skating. It's not that Chan wasn't punished - it's that everyone behind him either messed up or their skating wasn't up to par with his (obviously, never in your opinion, but certainly in the opinions of several others including the judges). In 2018, Chan's score would have put him in 5th after the team SP.

The most intriguing point about all of this is that you're absolving Russia of failing to deliver and simply saying Canada could have lost if non-factor countries for medals shifted Chan in the standpoint.

I also don't buy your psychological argument saying the men's standings would have suddenly changed the game. As if the team event is some game of chess where countries every night go home and strategize about which skaters to field the next day. AFAIK, the team rosters are submitted prior to the competition and countries are not allowed to change their rosters unless a skater gets injured (just ask Plushenko the rules about being able to swap entries on the fly in the team event - he knows :biggrin:). So regardless of what happened in the men's SP, the team's rosters were set.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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It makes perfect sense. Aliev at Europeans skated better in the LP than Kolyada EVER had, and Kolyada after horrifically bombing the SP wasn't showing trustworthiness.

Lawd, at least fact check boo! :laugh: Aliev scored 182.73 at Europeans 2018. Kolyada in that season alone had two higher-scoring freeskates -- 185.27 at 2017 Rostelecom; he also scored 182.78 at the 2017 Grand Prix Final.

Also, Europeans was Aliev's ONLY good freeskate of the season up until that point


Kolyada's FS:
181.16 Nepela
158.05 Finlandia
185.27 Rostelecom
176.25 Cup of China
182.78 Grand Prix Final
179.54 Russian Nationals
175.49 Europeans

Aliev's FS:
150.84 Rostelecom
145.94 NHK
154.22 Tallinn
157.16 Russian Nationals
182.73 Europeans

So excuse the Russian Fed for assuming Kolyada would be better slated for the team FS than Aliev.
 

Blades of Passion

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Han Yan's skating isn't up to par with Chan's. Yan even skating perfectly never got over 86 PCS, whereas even with bad skates Chan scored near or above 90 due to the quality of his skating.

It's deplorable how you continue to insist on these numbers having absolute meaning we should blindly take as fact. Han Yan's skating is certainly "up to par" with many of Chan's performances, or even better than some of his performances, like in this event. Han Yan was just never able to put the package of "consistent Quads + great presentation" together and strike at the right time to win a big title and boost his name; he was growing as a performer over the years and struggling with technical demands as he matured. He also lost his political support after Boyang Jin burst onto the scene, which makes a huge difference in these things, regardless of you continuing to pretend that factor doesn't exist.

If you were to actually compare their speed and depth of edge and ease of turns/steps, you won't see much difference. Han Yan has excellent skating skills. And I can quantitatively point out how Han Yan in that performance was more with his music and choreography than Patrick Chan was, along with reasoning for why his performance and interpretation had more depth. I do also think it's relevant to point out that a skater saving themself from completely going down on a jump landing, showing the effort to keep themselves more upright and their blade in contact with the ice, might end up being a better moment of presentation and create a better overall impression.

Cha/Rizzo didn't have quads yet and didn't attempt them which put their base value lower than Chan's - otherwise they would have beaten him.

As if someone needs a Quad to beat a guy who fell on both his Quad and 3Axel, couldn't do the 3-3 combo, and couldn't deliver a good performance. Just ridiculous. They did enough already, your argument is fallacious; "base value" loses meaning when you're not actually getting the scores for the elements. Figure skating is not a competition of "go attempt the highest base value and you automatically win". Those flawed jumps pulling so many points is just further controversy about the whole thing anyway, something that virtually nobody agrees with.

Lawd, at least fact check boo! :laugh: Aliev scored 182.73 at Europeans 2018. Kolyada in that season alone had two higher-scoring freeskates -- 185.27 at 2017 Rostelecom; he also scored 182.78 at the 2017 Grand Prix Final.

Those numbers you're trying to quote are not an accurate reflection of reality for what Kolyada deserved. Aliev at 2018 Europeans in the LP was better than Kolyada had ever been in a LP, plain and simple (we can do a full analysis in another thread). We are talking about what scores were deserved, not useless reputation/political based scores that are a large reason for why there are so many scoring controversies in the first place. Kolyada was constantly being propped up in LP's because of status as "#1 Russian Man", and the SP performances he was able to show...which he then failed to do at that event, giving a career-worst kind of skate.

LOL, you're the one coming up with time-travelling whatif scenarios as to the psychology of the Russian team if the men's SP was scored differently and running through the scenarios to optimize them

That's not time-traveling (aka, taking knowledge impossible to know at the time from the future). It's actual things that could have happened and been accounted for in the real timeline, had things been scored differently.

I was using their actual Olympic freeskates as a representation of how they could have competed in the team, which most would agree is far more logical.

It's not more logical, there's a whole different set of pressures and mindset (like for example the pressure of Aliev going into the final flight in the individual event at his first Olympics, the very top showdown, something most athletes in that situation have talked about being absolutely nerve-wracking), and is simply not something that could be known at the time of the Team event.

AFAIK, the team rosters are submitted prior to the competition and countries are not allowed to change their rosters unless a skater gets injured (just ask Plushenko the rules about being able to swap entries on the fly in the team event - he knows :biggrin:). So regardless of what happened in the men's SP, the team's rosters were set.

You're incorrect, changes are allowed between SP and LP, and your line about Plushenko is misplaced: he was talking about trying to drop out of the Olympics after the team event in order to give his spot to another guy in the individual event. Which also could be done if someone says they are injured right after the team event, Plushenko just made the mistake of declaring his intent publicly, which meant he was no longer able to say "I'm injured" until after the deadline, so as to not cause a sanction.

The most intriguing point about all of this is that you're absolving Russia of failing to deliver and simply saying Canada could have lost if non-factor countries for medals shifted Chan in the standing.

Nope, another false twisting of words from you. It's only a matter of what the rankings should have been and how that impacts the competition, and I've talked in length about the impact it has everywhere. Nathan Chen and his wrong placement has been a big part of the discussion. Stop acting like someone is going after Canada or like I was in the tank for Russia. People can criticize skaters without any other agenda. The entire reason this whole debate happened is because someone claimed "Patrick Chan pulled his weight in the Team competition", and I completely disagree with that notion, given the performances he put out and how others skated.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Chan pulled his weight in the FS. He did not perform well in the SP but was fortunate that others did poorly too. Nevertheless he still did sufficiently well to get 3rd - while Kolyada botched all 3 jumping passes. You said yourself it’s the team score that ultimately mattered - and Chan contributed 18 points (24.6% of Canada’s 73 total points) to his team’s final standings whether you think he deserved them or not.

And what someone “deserved” in your opinion is disparate from what happens. The Russian federation when deciding a team is looking at results and numbers and Kolyada’s results up until that point that season were far better than Aliev’s, including a bronze at the GPF - which Aliev failed to make by a long shot. And he beat Aliev by 22 points in the FS at Russian Nationals. And by 35 points at Rostelecom. A 7 point FS margin at Euros isn’t going to suddenly flip a season of Kolyada giving the goods into Aliev’s favour.

And as the individual event proved - Kolyada was the better free skater. Making excuses about Aliev being in the final flight and caving to the pressure of that is lame. Boo boo - I suppose he should have done worse in the SP then to pave the way for him slaying in the FS?! :laugh:

Like Chan and Canada, I think it was great that Russia gave Kolyada a chance to redeem himself in the team event. And he did - with a better FS than Aliev produced in the individual (that would have only placed 3rd in the team FS). And both redeemed themselves with solid freeskates and claiming the top 2 spots - again, regardless of whether you think they deserved it or not. Those guys certainly don’t care about whether random people who aren’t the judges think they deserve it.

But you do you, boo. You’re always a fun read. :)
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
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Country
France
Ah, the "judging panel at an event are the only people who matter in the entire sport" line of argument again. Classic. And trying to call highly qualified people "random", truly convincing reasoning.

And what someone “deserved” in your opinion is disparate from what happens.

ANY result that people disagree with, aka controversy, is because "what happened" in the scoring is disparate from what people feel the scoring should have been. The entire basis of talking about it is to further examine what happened, to closely compare and give detailed reasoning, to reach a better understanding.

You parroting the scores Chan got does not add any further nuance or worthwhile analysis to the discussion, nor prove anything. A question I'd like to hear some people answer: do you think someone placing 6th + 2nd in their portion of a watered-down Team event should be considered as having "carried their weight" for a Gold medal? Moreover, do you think a SP + LP with 6 significant mistakes, including 3 falls, while not having the highest difficulty or artistry to compensate, should be considered "Gold medal worthy" skating?

Like people were talking about in the other thread, it's quite dishonest to equate superficial medal achievement in this kind of event, with performance that would objectively be considered an excellent competition showing. Yeah, it can happen that people get carried by their teams, but observers usually recognize that too, and people very much would like to see a fair assessment taking place. The format of the event is already bad enough, no need to make it even more dubious.

The Russian federation when deciding a team is looking at results and numbers and Kolyada’s results up until that point that season were far better than Aliev’s

It's important to pick the person who is best for the job at a given moment. In this sport, results in the later part of the season tend to be more indicative. Programs and elements earlier in the season are not as comfortable much of the time, not as developed. Kolyada was beaten at Europeans and catastrophically bombed in the Team SP, which had been his stronger segment all season. That's a huge downward trend, not something which shows they are ready to go out and deliver a quality LP (and he didn't, and his scores for that performance were widely decried; the program in general was criticized as being hokey and banal and not a good fit for him all season long, whereas Aliev's program was well praised when it came into focus).
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Ah, the "judging panel at an event are the only people who matter in the entire sport" line of argument again. Classic. And trying to call highly qualified people "random", truly convincing reasoning.



ANY result that people disagree with, aka controversy, is because "what happened" in the scoring is disparate from what people feel the scoring should have been. The entire basis of talking about it is to further examine what happened, to closely compare and give detailed reasoning, to reach a better understanding.

You parroting the scores Chan got does not add any further nuance or worthwhile analysis to the discussion, nor prove anything. A question I'd like to hear some people answer: do you think someone placing 6th + 2nd in their portion of a watered-down Team event should be considered as having "carried their weight" for a Gold medal? Moreover, do you think a SP + LP with 6 significant mistakes, including 3 falls, while not having the highest difficulty or artistry to compensate, should be considered "Gold medal worthy" skating?

Like people were talking about in the other thread, it's quite dishonest to equate superficial medal achievement in this kind of event, with performance that would objectively be considered an excellent competition showing. Yeah, it can happen that people get carried by their teams, but observers usually recognize that too, and people very much would like to see a fair assessment taking place. The format of the event is already bad enough, no need to make it even more dubious.



It's important to pick the person who is best for the job at a given moment. In this sport, results in the later part of the season tend to be more indicative. Programs and elements earlier in the season are not as comfortable much of the time, not as developed. Kolyada was beaten at Europeans and catastrophically bombed in the Team SP, which had been his stronger segment all season. That's a huge downward trend, not something which shows they are ready to go out and deliver a quality LP (and he didn't, and his scores for that performance were widely decried; the program in general was criticized as being hokey and banal and not a good fit for him all season long, whereas Aliev's program was well praised when it came into focus).

You are missing the point of a TEAM event. Not every skater’s individual performance will necessarily be worthy of the medal result in the team event. This goes for every sport - does the gold winning 4x100 have to have the top 4 fastest sprinters? Does the gold winning gymnastics men/women’s team need to all give gold medal-standard individual apparatus performances? No. It’s a collective team effort that determines the medal.

e.g. the men's artistic all-around https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymna...er_Olympics_–_Men's_artistic_team_all-around; the Japanese men won comfortably... but look at some of their individual rankings within each apparatus - Uchimura placed 12th in parallel bars, 13th in rings; Kato was 17th on vault; Yamamuro was 21st on pommel horse -- should their team gold be somehow diminished or treated as controversy because of these non-gold worthy performances?

Back to the 2018 figure skating team event.... Bobrova/Soloviev came 3rd in both of their team segments — why do they deserve gold (or the silver they got) for only being 3rd best in their discipline? Kolyada came 8th in his SP - would he have deserved a gold if Russia somehow defeated Canada in the end - does he deserve to keep his silver for an 8th + 2nd... or 3rd if Rippon had happened to rotate his lutz? The list goes on for substandard performances to have won team medals - Chen and Abbott’s team bronze for poor SPs, Osmond’s team silver in 2014 for two 5ths. Castelli/Shnapir coming only 5th and 4th. Tennell’s bronze in spite of placing only 5th. Should all these skaters be stripped of their medals for “not pulling their weight”?

And again Chan didn’t end up 6th and 2nd - he came 3rd and 1st (the latter of which he DID have the highest artistry). Whether you or so-called “people” agree with that is negligible (BTW, who are these "people" -- can you even point out ONE who thinks Chan's placements in the team event are controversial based on how everyone skated?). Nor is it controversial because many messed up. You keep neglecting the inferior quality/difficulty/GOE on other elements/program quality of the rest of the skaters who placed behind Chan which allowed him to come 3rd. And clearly objectivity is out of the question when it comes to assessing Chan, as you keep extolling the artistic virtues of Yan with 2 errors and a poorly executed combo -- and trivializing his errors because they weren’t “thud falls”. It’s fine to fantasize about what you think should have been (you do it quite often), and fine to imagine scenarios in your mind how Chan being lowered would somehow change the psyche/strategy of the Russian team, but you’re futilely trying to fashion controversy where there is none based on how the competition went down - the same way you’re imagining a world where Aliev and T/M would have won the team FS when there is zero evidence to support that. Fan fiction, indeed.

Just because a skater didn’t give a [medal colour]-worthy performance doesn’t mean it is controversial. The Olympics have been won by a skater who fell twice but he still (IMO) deserved to win based on the poor level of skating of the rest of the competition. That’s figure skating. This is particularly relevant in a team competition where a team can still produce a gold medal even if not every one of their 8 segments is a [medal colour]-“worthy” performance - because the medal is contingent on the team’s collective performance and not the performances of an individual.
 
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