Rehashing the 2014 and 2018 Oly Team Event | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Rehashing the 2014 and 2018 Oly Team Event

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4everchan

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I find it funny that the discussion is about Patrick and Patrick only... because it so doesn't matter when looking at the performances in the other disciplines. I am starting to wonder if someone is simply doing that to minimize Patrick's successes like it's been done in other threads.

Can we please move on?
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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i think Canada won fair that team competion. However, the fact is that Russia wasnt able to send their best team, and all the things happening before the Olympics certanly affected their skaters. I remember i simulated multiple outcomes based on that season results and Russia (with Stepanova/ Bukin and Stolbova/ Klimov) was a winner in vast majority of cases. Canadian skaters actually did what is predicted in terms of their individual results for the whole team. Russian skaters (maybe for those reasons hardly predictable) just didn't.

Yeah, most simulations would have predicted the Canadian team to win the gold. With Russia lacking a strong men's skater, with D/R back in form in pairs, and with the return of Virtue/Moir (otherwise B/S could have beaten either W/P or G/P for a 6-point gain), the gold was Canada's to lose.

I agree that Stolbova/Klimova probably would have done better than Zabiako/Enbert but that would only gain them 1 point. Stepanova/Bukin also weren't going to to better than V/M and the Shibutanis that season.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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I find it funny that the discussion is about Patrick and Patrick only... because it so doesn't matter when looking at the performances in the other disciplines. I am starting to wonder if someone is simply doing that to minimize Patrick's successes like it's been done in other threads.

Can we please move on?

Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous to try to stir controversy as to Canada's gold medal in a team event based off the placement of one skater. But BOP clearly has an axe to grind against Chan, so, true to form, he creates his own fantasy scenarios where Chan costs Canada the team gold in an effort to diminish what was a fair and square win. At least he's consistent.

In Sochi, team Russia was massively overscored in the team event and arguably didn't deserve all their placements (like Lipnitskaia beating Kostner, and Plushenko beating Reynolds/Machida), but they still had a comfortable margin of victory, delivered the best overall as a team, and won that gold fair and square over Canada. Same goes for Canada in 2018.
 

Blades of Passion

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You are missing the point of a TEAM event. Not every skater’s individual performance will necessarily be worthy of the medal result in the team event.

I'm not missing the point, that's literally what I just said. What people have been talking about is proper recognition of achievement. Not acting like someone having a medal from this kind of event means anything more than what they actually put out on the ice in that competition.

This team event is completely different from every other team event in sports, because there's little-to-no "teamwork" happening here, and unlike gymnastics for example where people are picked on the basis of a specific apparatus, everyone in skating is just going out there and training the exact same programs, and being picked for the Olympics on the basis of their overall individual ability, not solely for their "jump apparatus" or their "spin apparatus" or their "footwork apparatus" or their "performance apparatus".

And clearly objectivity is out of the question when it comes to assessing Chan, as you keep extolling the artistic virtues of Yan with 2 errors and a poorly executed combo -- and trivializing his errors because they weren’t “thud falls”.

Yet another straw-man twisting of words. I never trivialized Yan's errors, I said they were lesser errors. The details matter. His combo wasn't "poorly executed" either, he had very good amplitude/rotation on the jumps and just a bit of swing at the end of the toeloop. It's not like Chan executed his much easier combo with good quality, he was titled in the air on his lutz and didn't jump high, and lost flow. Yan deserved to outscore him technically in these performances.

You've also continued to ignore what artistry actually is, and just treat everything like technical content. Yes someone can show worthwhile artistry with 2 errors, and your argument is nonsensical anyway, because they both had 2 big errors. Even if technical content is supposed to be the prime influencer of PCS (which no, it shouldn't), that has little bearing in this comparison and their qualities still need to be assessed in relation to each other. I see Han staying more true to the music, making more effort to create choreographic shapes with his body, to give the performance his all. As talked about already, his skating skills are top-notch too, his edges are some of the deepest around, and he builds speed with ease and his turns/steps are very clean; Chan deserved maybe .25 higher there and that's it. Tangentially, it's quite a joke Nathan Chen was scored higher on skating skills.

And again Chan didn’t end up 6th and 2nd

That wasn't the question asked. Put yourself in the shoes of looking at performances you personally found very lacking and that was in fact ranked like that (or should have been, for you). Does the skater deserve to be highly praised over better performances, just because they did the performances in the Team event?

Kolyada came 8th in his SP - would he have deserved a gold if Russia somehow defeated Canada in the end, does he deserve to keep his silver for an 8th + 2nd... or 3rd if Rippon had happened to rotate his lutz?

Obviously people deserve to "keep" their medal if the team won it fairly, but that doesn't mean the medal itself should be given any more value than what it deserves to be recognized as. Oh, and Rippon DID rotate his lutz sufficiently. Just another bad call from a panel that is apparently incapable of seeing where a jump takeoff starts.

Yeah, most simulations would have predicted the Canadian team to win the gold. With Russia lacking a strong men's skater, with D/R back in form in pairs, and with the return of Virtue/Moir (otherwise B/S could have beaten either W/P or G/P for a 6-point gain), the gold was Canada's to lose.

Russia was not "lacking a strong men's skater". Both of their men had delivered stronger performances leading up to the Olympics than anything Chan had done that season, and they both beat him in the individual event. And it's irrelevant what the simulations predict as winner when it comes to judging an event.

Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous to try to stir controversy as to Canada's team medal in a team event based off the placement of one skater.

No, it's ridiculous to ignore problems in the scoring and in the actual skating. It doesn't matter if it was one skater, the exact deserved judging and placement is what matters. If you don't understand how big of an impact it is to get an extra 3-4 team points and how it can change the competition, then dunno. Seems like you haven't participated in many competitive things, where all of this matters very precisely and is taken into account for the overall ongoing tactics. Even typically in skating this is something that happens, where a skater knows someone's score or what a competitor will be able to do, and then modifies the difficulty of their own program to do the necessary amount needed to win.
 

TallyT

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This team event is completely different from every other team event in sports, because there's little-to-no "teamwork" happening here, and unlike gymnastics for example where people are picked on the basis of a specific apparatus, everyone in skating is just going out there and training the exact same programs, and being picked for the Olympics on the basis of their overall individual ability, not solely for their "jump apparatus" or their "spin apparatus" or their "footwork apparatus" or their "performance apparatus".

Agreed, and until the ISU can work out a way to make the team even something in its own right, without overloading the skaters with extra routines, it may have to stay the poor relation.

I find it funny that the discussion is about Patrick and Patrick only... because it so doesn't matter when looking at the performances in the other disciplines.

Because as far as I can see, the rest of the Canadian team's OGM performances honestly can't be seen as at all controversial? The men's SP was The Splatfest of the event, after all, so I suspect whoever got hauled by his teammates over the golden line would be being hauled over the coals by posterity (had Russia done it and Mikhail got a gold... hoooooooo boy :palmf:)

For me it is non-controversial, they won it fair and square under the rules.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Russia was not "lacking a strong men's skater". Both of their men had delivered stronger performances leading up to the Olympics than anything Chan had done that season, and they both beat him in the individual event. And it's irrelevant what the simulations predict as winner when it comes to judging an event.

Chan got a 190.74 FS the previous April and a 103 SP the previous March. But I suppose since they're not in the "same season" of 2017-2018 (even though they were less than a year before) they don't fit into your argument so I guess we'll have to go with the sample size of Skate Canada and Nationals as indication of "anything Chan had done that season".

I take that back - Russia didn't lack a strong skater as Kolyada was 3rd at the GPF which is notable. But Aliev as "Russia's strong skater?" please.

Also, Chan came 8th, less than a point behind Kolyada and 4 points behind Aliev (and both easily beat Aliev in the FS - which you seem to think Aliev competing was Russia's key to a team gold), so it's not like he smoked them. I never said Canada had a particularly strong men's skater either, but against a sloppy field a 2018 Chan still can come out on top (which he did in the team FS, with a higher score than Aliev got in the individual -- and only once that season did Aliev actually score even above 179). Love it how you're suddenly acknowledging the results of the individual event conferring to what went on in the team - glad you're finally on board with me! :agree:

You wanna talk "anything that season" - look at Aliev's scores that season, and look at Kolyada's.
 

Blades of Passion

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I take that back - Russia didn't lack a strong skater as Kolyada was 3rd at the GPF which is notable. But Aliev as "Russia's strong skater?" please.

So you don't answer the questions/details presented and now this willful ignorance. Winning the Silver at Europeans, the most important event of all before the Olympics for a European, and delivering a beautiful LP that was hailed as the best from any Russian man in years, is exactly something that shows you to be a strong skater.

Chan got a 190.74 FS the previous April and a 103 SP the previous March. But I suppose since they're not in the "same season" of 2017-2018 (even though they were less than a year before) they don't fit into your argument so I guess we'll have to go with the sample size of Skate Canada and Nationals as indication of "anything Chan had done that season".

Uh yeah, things can happen between seasons (clearly it did for Chan, with his lowered tech content and coach hopping and reports of not training especially hard) or even during a season with injury/circumstance. Don't pretend that's some kind of semantic argument. Most people are training for years to peak for the Olympics. Results people are putting out right before the Olympics is the #1 most important thing to look at, unless it's a case of an established mega-talent/consistent skater recuperating from injury and looking like they can get back in time.

But of course this topic is just another diversion and not what was important to the discussion.
 

4everchan

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Agreed, and until the ISU can work out a way to make the team even something in its own right, without overloading the skaters with extra routines, it may have to stay the poor relation.



Because as far as I can see, the rest of the Canadian team's OGM performances honestly can't be seen as at all controversial? The men's SP was The Splatfest of the event, after all, so I suspect whoever got hauled by his teammates over the golden line would be being hauled over the coals by posterity (had Russia done it and Mikhail got a gold... hoooooooo boy :palmf:)

For me it is non-controversial, they won it fair and square under the rules.

well, see, i don't see it like this. Patrick didn't skate a clean SP... almost no one did... but he still made sure that the rest of his program was good. And then, he skated a decent LP, not flawless but decent, and it placed 1st... i don't see how someone who places first and third in a team event is being hauled by his teammates. He was the best in a group of men who all underperformed.


Some skaters won olympic gold in singles with less than stellar performances... So let's treat everyone fairly...
 

TallyT

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Some skaters won olympic gold in singles with less than stellar performances... So let's treat everyone fairly...

Ooooh, catty claws there. I said it was non-controversial for me but let's be honest, he was only first in the free because the skaters who did a good short never got to the free (thanks to their teammates being weaker, that's what the team event means, or the split). Whether he also got some generous scoring... well, beauty has its own rewards, and Patrick was one of the best and most beautiful (in purely skating terms) performers of the IJS era, no question about that whatsoever. However, looking back it appears clear that for some reason, the Olympics was never where he was able to shine as he absolutely could. He's not the first or the last to have that happen...

Anyway, that seems to have been thrashed out... anyone want to talk about, ummm, the 2014 team event?
 

Blades of Passion

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In the same train of thought, that's exactly how Yuzu won his gold in 2014... best of a not so well skated event. So let's treat everyone fairly...

This is a false equivalency though? Yuzu delivered a world-record SP and his LP was far more difficult than what Patrick put out there in the Team event. The skating Yuzu did was on a whole other level and less mistake-filled. Most people also feel Yuzu's placement was deserved, certainly nobody is legitimately arguing for him to be more than 1 place lower between both programs (I've only heard super-Chan fans being like "Hanyu fell twice, our guy didn't totally fall, Hanyu should lose the LP..."). Quite a big difference from the 4-placement differential that could be said of Chan's team event showing, particularly because that has other impacts.

Why do I get the feeling people would be saying different things if it was, like, Jeremy Abbott's 2014 team SP showing that had been the one to place 3 spots higher, ahead of better performances, and thus also putting Canada in jeopardy of dropping down to the Bronze medal in the event because of it. Hmm.
 

Ic3Rabbit

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Actually Jeremy Abbott was brave as all hell to get up injured and still finish his SP, so I don't want to hear it.

It was a freak accident and everyone wants to keep beating him up over it. Again, bully environment around here, nobody here would have been standing up after that and continuing a decently skated SP. And I don't want to hear that you would because we all damn well know you wouldn't. You'd be too busy whining and trying to get off the ice ASAP.
 
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Quite a big difference from the 4-placement differential that could be said of Chan's team event showing, particularly because that has other impacts.

But the thing is, Canada won by 7 placement points. Take 4 away and they still win handily, even if Kolyada picks up an extra point by placing ahead of Chan in the LP.

As for the "other impacts," to me that sort of speculation is not very convincing. It is impossible to guess whether there would have been any impact at all on other skaters' performances or placements. I don't want to pick on any one skater, but Russia lost it's chances to compete for gold when Kolyada flopped in the Short Program. And whatever hopes the United States might have had also flew out the window when Nathan Chen did not grab 10 points in the SP -- USA was not going to beat Canada in pairs or dance and were not going to gain much if anything in ladies.
 
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Blades of Passion

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Actually Jeremy Abbott was brave as all heck to get up injured and still finish his SP, so I don't want to hear it.

It was a freak accident and everyone wants to keep beating him up over it. Again, bully environment around here, nobody here would have been standing up after that and continuing a decently skated SP. And I don't want to hear that you would because we all damn well know you wouldn't. You'd be too busy whining.

Again with the misplaced "bullying" claims, while in the next breath being a bully and making derogatory, unfounded assertions. Curious.

Discussing what placement someone deserved is not bullying, and it had little to do with Jeremy specifically, my comment was in fact "defending" him, saying that people with more titles/medals are incorrectly propped up and considered inherently more deserving, just because of their status (and this extends to how judging operates in skating). It was also meant to be an example of nationalistic bias by some people.

Abbott's painful fall happened in the individual SP, not the team SP; you might want to check some things before lashing out when nobody is even talking about it.

As for the "other impacts," to me that sort of speculation is not very convincing. It is impossible to guess whether there would have been any impact at all on other skaters' performances or placements.

That impossibility of guessing can go both ways though. A wrong ("different") judging result like this inherently clouds everything else, in a scenario where the decisions being made are directly dependent on a first getting that output. It creates "reasonable doubt". Or either way, any kind of significant qualms about the judging is relatively controversial on its own.

I don't think it's especially worthwhile to wonder if the chosen skaters would have performed differently in the LP, but most definitely with team selection it's a big issue, because that is a concrete thing which could have changed. It's just not possible to say the strategy will always remain the same; that a team isn't going to make an alteration when they suddenly have a better medal chance or feel they need to do something differently in order to win.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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So you don't answer the questions/details presented and now this willful ignorance. Winning the Silver at Europeans, the most important event of all before the Olympics for a European, and delivering a beautiful LP that was hailed as the best from any Russian man in years, is exactly something that shows you to be a strong skater.

Uh yeah, things can happen between seasons (clearly it did for Chan, with his lowered tech content and coach hopping and reports of not training especially hard) or even during a season with injury/circumstance. Don't pretend that's some kind of semantic argument. Most people are training for years to peak for the Olympics. Results people are putting out right before the Olympics is the #1 most important thing to look at, unless it's a case of an established mega-talent/consistent skater recuperating from injury and looking like they can get back in time.

But of course this topic is just another diversion and not what was important to the discussion.

LOL, hailed by how many people and by whom? I was going by numbers and results - you were going by a singular freeskate at Euros. And no, the result before the Olympics isn't the best indication of how that skater will perform at the Olympics. e.g. Tanaka scored 260 and came 4th at 4CC2018 only to score 244.83 at the Olympics (placing 18th). Vasiljevs was 4th at Euros with a score of 243.52, and scored 234.58 at the Olympics (placing 19th). Aliev was almost clean in his FS at Euros, and fell twice in his FS at the Olympics.

Good thing you mentioned peaking too as it was clear that Aliev peaked too early at Euros. As I said, and as you can't deny, Aliev fell twice in his individual freeskate and you can make excuses for him all you want, but the fact is, his ONLY good freeskate in the 2017/2018 season was at Euros on home ice (in which he still doubled a flip thus negating the benefit of one of his quads). The fact that Kolyada's 3-fall freeskate at Rostelecom 2017 (which was overscored on PCS, of course) outscored Aliev's Euros 2018 FS (also overscored, of course) is demonstrative that Kolyada's scoring potential was WAY higher even when he messed up, and Aliev had to skate near lights out just to match a sloppy skate from Kolyada. Whether you think that's fair or not is inconsequential when deciding who the best bet to score the highest is. Aliev is so inconsistent that since the 2018 Worlds until 2020 Euros he never scored in a FS above 170. In his senior career of 20 competitions, Aliev has won a freeskate just THREE times (2 of them being at Challenger Series events). And you still think he would have won the 2018 team FS - let me guess, because he would have "deserved" it. Okay, judges, well there you have it - gotta place him in first now, because some guy says he deserves it! :laugh:

And LMAO at your completely false "lowered tech content" claims for Chan. He literally started incorporating a quad salchow in his 2016-2017 season (and landing it) as well as diid 2 quads and 2 triple axel freeskates in the tail end of his career, and scored personal bests at the tail end of his career, including posting scores above 100 SP and 200 FS. He was so "lazy" that he got 2 Grand Prix golds and posted 295 at the 2017 World Championships in his penultimate season (at the age of 26, in his 10th senior season. Like, boo, I know you openly and passionately dislike Chan but your axe to grind is looking duller and duller the more you try to come for him... you should maybe invest in some blades of precision. :laugh:
 

yume

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Some skaters won olympic gold in singles with less than stellar performances... So let's treat everyone fairly...
That should be in singular because i'm sure one of these performances was stellar.
Sometimes you're strong enough to win a program with two costly mistakes. Because you simply has the best layout and potential scoring or/and because others did worse. So you still win because you were the strongest.

In other cases, you're really not a strong competitor (performance and/or abilities) that day or usually, among the weakests of the event, but you still win something (team event).

I don't think Hanyu despite his 2 falls in the free can be called one of the weakests of the men event. Everyone else did worse and had lower difficulty. And he still would have beat everyone in team event with the same performances.

Same with Chan despite two botched programs in 2018 team event. That's why there is no controversy about these two results imo.
 

Ic3Rabbit

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Again with the misplaced "bullying" claims, while in the next breath being a bully and making derogatory, unfounded assertions. Curious.

Discussing what placement someone deserved is not bullying, and it had little to do with Jeremy specifically, my comment was in fact "defending" him, saying that people with more titles/medals are incorrectly propped up and considered inherently more deserving, just because of their status (and this extends to how judging operates in skating). It was also meant to be an example of nationalistic bias by some people.

Abbott's painful fall happened in the individual SP, not the team SP; you might want to check some things before lashing out when nobody is even talking about it.


Sure it was, you always defend him so much. :rolleye:

And yet you want to accuse someone of bullying again, and then come on to bully them in the same breath. See what you got twisted was the fact that I was defending Jeremy, not you. Move along and just agree to disagree with me. I never addressed you once again in a post, but you are just always itching to answer.
 

TallyT

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That should be in singular because i'm sure one of these performances was stellar.

His one and only team performance (SP 2014) was pretty damn stellar too. Just sayin'. :luv17:

PS - though it occurs to me, why on earth are Jeremy and Yuzu involved in a fight over the 2018 team event????
 

Blades of Passion

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And LMAO at your completely false "lowered tech content" claims for Chan. He literally started incorporating a quad salchow in his 2016-2017 season

And then he dropped the quad salchow the next season, the Olympic season we've been talking about this entire time, which is exactly "lowered tech content"! Really, why are you constantly making completely false claims in these posts, and then attempting to distort facts and say someone else is the one doing it, when it's so blatantly obvious and verifiable what the truth is. Please, stop. This is gas lighting and I do NOT want to suffer this abuse anymore. Maybe you don't realize it's happening, so this is a public announcement that I feel very harassed by that behavior, and I don't think it's something anyone should have to deal with. It's a malignant waste of time, and waste of space, that should have no place in these discussions, which tend to get complex, and where people are trying to share their viewpoint and explain details and concepts as clearly as possible.

Good thing you mentioned peaking too as it was clear that Aliev peaked too early at Euros.

That must be why he delivered his best SP ever at the Olympics. And what else makes it "clear" that Aliev peaked too early? You have no legitimate claim or reasoning to declare he peaked too early, just more random straw-man statements. His program was a work in progress throughout the entire earlier part of the season and he still had room to improve on his Euros showing.

LOL, hailed by how many people and by whom?

By all kinds of commentators and observers and people in the skating world. Search the videos and written opinions for yourself, and/or network with people and ask their opinion for yourself. It's not my job to provide a bibliography of media or my personal interactions, every time I want to express a recollection of a life experience.

Sure it was, you always defend him so much. :rolleye:

See what you got twisted was the fact that I was defending Jeremy, not you.

See the first paragraph in this post, which could be repeated here too. You aren't the divine arbiter on what I was saying (and have no right to question why people are responding to you, this is an open forum, not your personal sanctum), especially when you factually didn't even know what was being talked about, and incorrectly referenced a different performance than the one brought up. And what is this eyerolling, incorrect inference about me towards Jeremy? He is one of my favorite skaters, and there's nothing in my personal interactions with him or any of my opinions about anything he's done outside of the sport that would cause any kind of conflict.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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And then he dropped the quad salchow the next season, the Olympic season we've been talking about this entire time, which is exactly "lowered tech content"! Really, why are you constantly making completely false claims in these posts, and then attempting to distort facts and say someone else is the one doing it, when it's so blatantly obvious and verifiable what the truth is. Please, stop. This is gas lighting and I do NOT want to suffer this abuse anymore. Maybe you don't realize it's happening, so this is a public announcement that I feel very harassed by that behavior, and I don't think it's something anyone should have to deal with. It's a malignant waste of time, and waste of space, that should have no place in these discussions, which tend to get complex, and where people are trying to share their viewpoint and explain details and concepts as clearly as possible.


By all kinds of commentators and observers and people in the skating world. Search the videos and written opinions for yourself, and/or network with people and ask their opinion for yourself. It's not my job to provide a bibliography of media or my personal interactions, every time I want to express a recollection of a life experience.

Lmao, I ain’t gaslighting or abusing anyone, boo. As you said, I am expressing my viewpoint - and backing it up with evidence (Chan planned 2 quads and 2 axels in his FS so he was hardly shying away from difficulty). Evidently not everyone agreeing with you and having a diversity of opinions gets under your skin. If you can’t handle it and are going to be ultra-sensitive when it comes to disagreement (in a public forum of all places!), then that’s on you, not us. To use your own words: “We aren’t in Kindergarten.” :rolleye:

“There’s lots of evidence - just go out there and find it yourself” is the biggest copout, placing the onus on us to scour the internet for any sources that happen to support your argument. I didn’t ask for a bibliography - I asked for one source (other than yourself, obviously)... I mean like a source who is even marginally notable or influential in the skating world... who said that Chan’s placements in the team event should have been as low as you said. It’s easy for anyone to retort with your same rhetoric. “Most people in the skating world thought Chan deserved 3rd in the team SP” - but hey, I’m not going to provide any specific examples to substantiate that statement, though... search for yourself and you’ll find them! :biggrin:
 

TallyT

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What is fascinating is going back to live-watch threads for the 2018 team event, both here and elsewhere, and see what nearly everyone thought at the time of Patrick's and Mikhail's scores for what they put out on the ice. It wasn't kind or pretty.

Time does blur the memory, in some cases softening memories...
 
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