That was the worst SP ever for US women (OG)

bobbob said:

Again, you are not a technical caller and don't simply get to decide when the calls were "wrong".

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I think he's an actual technical controller, Blades of Passion that is. I could be wrong. Might not agree with him on everything regarding subjective things such as artistry and such, but I'd give him quite a bit of credit on these calls.

Tigerlily87 said:

I could be completely off about this one, but I just don’t think that it’s the cool thing to be a lady single skater in the USA anymore. Little girls are going up now to want to do either other sports or they’re seeing more options like ice dance or pairs.

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I think USA may be facing a similar problem that Canada had. All the promising young skaters get funneled to pairs or dance and then ladies becomes depleted.

bobbob said:

Again, you are not a technical caller and don't simply get to decide when the calls were "wrong".

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You haven't watched this have you?

chopinskate said:

Nathan's backed more.

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I’m of the opinion that if you fail every jumping pass in the technical check, you cannot, by definition, have achieved anything above average (5.0) in PE.

Metis said:

I’m of the opinion that if you fail every jumping pass in the technical check, you cannot, by definition, have achieved anything above average (5.0) in PE.

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I agree. But they wanted him to make the free skate to have a chance at redemption.

I am of the opinion that if Nathan had performed a clean short program, they would have handed him the win, deserved or not. Just like they handed it to Zag (though that one's deserved). The figure skating Olympics are about "stories". The boundary-pushing technician Nathan Chen, with his five different types of quads, saying "move over" to an injured Hanyu, just like the boundary-pushing technician Alina Zagitova, with her 3Lz-3Lo and backloading, said "move over" to the injured Medvedeva, is a good story -- that if you fall behind the times, you will be supplanted by fresher, "more deserving" talent. This is the only reason I can use to justify their PCS rise this season (though Nathan deserved at least some of it). It was to create a final showdown.

Shayuki said:

I think he's an actual technical controller, Blades of Passion that is. I could be wrong. Might not agree with him on everything regarding subjective things such as artistry and such, but I'd give him quite a bit of credit on these calls.

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Which event(s) has he been a technical controller or technical specialist at?

Tolstoj said:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...ram-ever-u-s-womens-figure-skating/357458002/

My idea is that the gap the American ladies have is due to the fact that these girls are not competitive at the age of 13-14 because they learn all their triples and combos later. I don't really know the reason, maybe due to this philosophy US coaches and influencer have where we should praise more the maturity in figure skating. But let me remind you few facts:

1) By the time Russians and Japanese skaters move into seniors, they are already much more prepared to win medals;

2) Yuna won the gold medal in 2010 at the age of 20, Adelina at Sochi 2014 at the age of 17, and likely Alina Zagitova will win the gold medal in Pyeongchang at the age of 15, so ISU doesn't reward more aged skaters or yes they do but it's still not enough to beat the new rising stars.

3) America used to have the new queens who win everything at 15-16 in the 90s, so why now they are focusing more on aged skaters?

Another good point is the fact that the best coaches in US and Canada don't work with juniors: Brian Orser doesn't have american or canadian skaters competing in juniors, Rafael Arutyunian maybe he's helping or at least sharing the rink with Svetlana Panova, but again, she coaches russian skaters only (could she train American skaters?), Tessa Hong went back to Tom Z according to her ISU profile after 6 months with Frank Carroll.

Yes there are Tom Z and Tammy Gambill but they are not top coaches: they've never brought a skater to medal at Worlds or GPF.

On the other side Eteri Tutberidze and Mie Hamada (the leading coaches in ladies in Russia and Japan) work primarily with juniors.

Thoughts? Solutions?

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Just don't start a YouCare of Go Fund Me campaign for any of them!

Erin9 said:

I’ve read the same thing: that young kids are interested in other sports, but then I look at ice dancing. The last decade is the best it has ever been. And the program is getting stronger. So- it doesn’t seem like lack of interest is a primary driver- though I buy it as a factor. And US men are generally in better shape than women. Nathan Chen and Vincent Zhou should do well off the top of my head.

Ice dancing does seem to be benefitting from awesome coaching though. Maybe that’s something to be looked at.

At least the US has finally adapted to international standards. I just don’t get why it took so long. Seems like such a logical thing to do.

I do think the mental strength of the ladies might be something though- just judging by the interviews and missteps in the individual.

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I agree that at least the US has Nathan and Vincent whom I have a feeling will be among the leaders of the Men's skating

nocturnalis said:

I think USA may be facing a similar problem that Canada had. All the promising young skaters get funneled to pairs or dance and then ladies becomes depleted.

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Who the heck is getting funneled to pairs. We haven't had a competitive pairs team in a donkey's age.

chopinskate said:

I agree. But they wanted him to make the free skate to have a chance at redemption.

I am of the opinion that if Nathan had performed a clean short program, they would have handed him the win, deserved or not. Just like they handed it to Zag (though that one's deserved). The figure skating Olympics are about "stories". The boundary-pushing technician Nathan Chen, with his five different types of quads, saying "move over" to an injured Hanyu, just like the boundary-pushing technician Alina Zagitova, with her 3Lz-3Lo and backloading, said "move over" to the injured Medvedeva, is a good story -- that if you fall behind the times, you will be supplanted by fresher, "more deserving" talent. This is the only reason I can use to justify their PCS rise this season (though Nathan deserved at least some of it). It was to create a final showdown.

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Replying in judging anomalies thread. (Since this is a bit off topic here.)

Nathan skated his LP with no pressure at all which is probably why he was the only top man to skate perfectly (or close to it). Dont be so sure at all he wins if he is in contention after the SP.

Procrastinator said:

Also to the person who implied Weir was a better skater than Lysacek... I don't even have the RAM to write out the response I would need to address everything wrong with that statement.

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I dont know if I consider Weir or Lysacek a better skater, but I dont find the idea Weir was far fetched at all. First of all being the more accomplished or medaled skater does not automatically mean the better one (atleast not to many people). Do you consider Lysacek a better skater than Lambiel for instance, he achieved far more medals wise. Yet I think despite that nearly everyone regards Lambiel as the better (much better to some) skater. Likewise do you consider Lysacek a better skater than Takahashi, he again achieved much more medals wise, yet I think nearly everyone rates Takahashi as the better skater. I am going to assume that like 99% of skating viewers you would never for a moment think Lysacek is a better skater than Takahashi or Lambiel, despite doing much better in terms of medals and achievements than them, so that already serves as proof that that this does not automatically put Lysacek over Weir as a better skater too.

Lysacek was a better competitor than Weir and better at earning points under the system, no question on that. Althoguh Lysacek is definitely regarded by most during his career as an overscored skater, and Weir particularly in the last 4-6 years as an underscored one, so that is a factor too even there. Results aside though,Weir had nicer and more flowing jumps, equally good or better spins, to most people better artistry, probably better basic skating skills. He was certainly the more talented overall of the two. It isnt crazy to think he might have been the better. Again as my Lambiel and Takahashi examples show Lysacek acheiving much more than Weir medal wise does not automatically qualify him as the better skater.

As for memorability, I think Lysacek is pretty much forgotten to the general American public today (forget outside the U.S, LOL). Weir is still very much in the forefront, even if his commentary is part of that. I would say even during their career Weir was the more marketable one tot he general public, in fact until Evan gained his surprise World and Olympic wins he had very little marketability at all, and as noted even that ended up short lived when he essentialy retired. And lord knows I am no Weir fan, but the guy is more of a star and name to the viewing public than Evan is.

moonvine said:

OK, but others have been saying young girls have not been wanting to be figure skaters due to various factors (other sports such as X games, not seeing skating on TV, etc). I hope USFS will be paying for its stars to go to top coaches in Russia. That cannot be cheap.

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That's a terrible and unrealistic idea. The problem is not lack of coaches. It's lack of a female skater with the combination of talent, competitive drive and steady nerves necessary to reach the top. Champions are both born and made. Michelle won Worlds in 2003 with Scott Williams--more a friend than a coach. Brian Boitano won the Olympics with his childhood coach who never again coached a champion. Yuna Kim didn't need Orser to win Worlds or a second Olympic medal that many think should have been gold. She also won gold medals before she started working with Orser. Eteri herself couldn't deliver a World or Olympic gold medal for Julia Lipnitskaya, even though it was there for the taking with her iconic Schindler's List program. Coaches can help to perfect technique and packaging but the skater herself has to bring the talent and mental strength to the table to be a champion.

Shayuki said:

I think he's an actual technical controller, Blades of Passion that is. I could be wrong. Might not agree with him on everything regarding subjective things such as artistry and such, but I'd give him quite a bit of credit on these calls.

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Nope, he's not.

stolbovadivas said:

Nathan skated his LP with no pressure at all which is probably why he was the only top man to skate perfectly (or close to it). Dont be so sure at all he wins if he is in contention after the SP.

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I think Nathan did have pressure to skate a good long program. His entire reputation as a top contender was on the line after two disastrous skates. He has had more skates like his Olympic long program than those two bad short programs in his career. I think he has a very good chance of winning Worlds.

jenaj said:

I think Nathan did have pressure to skate a good long program. His entire reputation as a top contender was on the line after two disastrous skates. He has had more skates like his Olympic long program than those two bad short programs in his career. I think he has a very good chance of winning Worlds.

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Nathan said so himself that he skated well because he had less pressure.

narcissa said:

Nathan said so himself that he skated well because he had less pressure.

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But he had skated like that in the past with a medal on the line. What he actually said was he let the pressure get to him in the short program. He said the lack of expectations helped in the long but I suspect he still felt internal pressure to skate well, given his competitive mindset. He skated like a champion has to skate--to do their best without gunning for a particular result.

jenaj said:

But he had skated like that in the past with a medal on the line. What he actually said was he let the pressure get to him in the short program. He said the lack of expectations helped in the long but I suspect he still felt internal pressure to skate well, given his competitive mindset. He skated like a champion has to skate--to do their best without gunning for a particular result.

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I'm probably a bit more bearish on Nathan than I was prior to the Olympics. There have been countless times of skaters performing a great LP after bombing the SP. Every time I hear a skater talk about how they learned from such an experience and won't make those mistakes again, I think about Sasha Cohen who said that in every interview but never figured out how to lay down two great programs in a big event. Fortunately, Worlds is coming very soon and he can turn things around quickly with a few good skates.

Sasha was known for fantastic short programs, but she was never able to deliver a clean FS. That was her issue throughout her skating career.

chuckm said:

Sasha was known for fantastic short programs, but she was never able to deliver a clean FS. That was her issue throughout her skating career.

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Yep. In many interview/fluff pieces, she would mention how a new training regimen, coach, or outlook on life made her a different person and ready to win big titles.