Should minimum age for seniors be raised? | Page 36 | Golden Skate

Should minimum age for seniors be raised?

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
el henry, read the Netherlands' proposal. Where in there does it say that the proposal is designed to protect the health of skaters? I see a whole lotta horse manure about idols and women being afraid, but I don't see anything in the proposal about protecting skaters' health.

Why?

Because that's not the reason the proposal was suggested and anyone with half a damn brain knows it.
Well put. This "protecting their health"-perspective is so flawed words can't even convey. In fact, with the juniors becoming more competitive, the skaters will be pushed into performing more difficult content earlier, not later. The reality is that if we wanted to protect the health of the skaters, lowering the minimum age for seniors from 15 to 13 would do a better job than increasing it from 17 to 18.



And of course, the official reasoning is just some fluff about the older skaters being sad about younger skaters being better, which is even more ridiculous if I'm being honest. If they would answer this point: If the aim is promoting longevity, how does directly removing 2 years from a skater's senior career not hurt longevity instead of improving it?

And then the reasoning of it being 17 years instead of 16 even though it's 16 for gymnastics is even more ridiculous. Seriously, who comes up with this stuff? Even better is that the person from NL tried to justify it like "You just don't see the effect these rules will have as a whole, you can't look at them individually" on this very forum... Just what.

This rule might help the CURRENT senior skaters. But after they retire and the new skaters would be stuck with the ruleset... I wish some people took a moment or two to consider the impacts of that.
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
el henry, read the Netherlands' proposal. Where in there does it say that the proposal is designed to protect the health of skaters? I see a whole lotta horse manure about idols and women being afraid, but I don't see anything in the proposal about protecting skaters' health.

Why?

Because that's not the reason the proposal was suggested and anyone with half a damn brain knows it.

Yes. In its essence, the proposal has been put forward in an attempt to bring forward the audiences that pay more money for the ISU. There was a post in another thread which outright stated they would rather be paying to see "mature artists" than "jumpers", and I reckon the ISU thinks that this move will bring in more audiences that pay for the tickets.


How the ISU will gain back the people it isolates with this, I'm not sure.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Well put. This "protecting their health"-perspective is so flawed words can't even convey. In fact, with the juniors becoming more competitive, the skaters will be pushed into performing more difficult content earlier, not later. The reality is that if we wanted to protect the health of the skaters, lowering the minimum age for seniors from 15 to 13 would do a better job than increasing it from 17 to 18.



And of course, the official reasoning is just some fluff about the older skaters being sad about younger skaters being better, which is even more ridiculous if I'm being honest. If they would answer this point: If the aim is promoting longevity, how does directly removing 2 years from a skater's senior career not hurt longevity instead of improving it?

And then the reasoning of it being 17 years instead of 16 even though it's 16 for gymnastics is even more ridiculous. Seriously, who comes up with this stuff? Even better is that the person from NL tried to justify it like "You just don't see the effect these rules will have as a whole, you can't look at them individually" on this very forum... Just what.

This rule might help the CURRENT senior skaters. But after they retire and the new skaters would be stuck with the ruleset... I wish some people took a moment or two to consider the impacts of that.

And it is actually not even 16 for gymnastics.
For gymnastics, gymnasts must be at least 16 years of age, or turning 16 within the calendar year, to compete in senior-level events.
So it is actually half a year difference with FS.

As for the person from NL, he even kinda openly implied that they are proposing this since EUA and Canada cannot because then it would look openly against Russians.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Yes. In its essence, the proposal has been put forward in an attempt to bring forward the audiences that pay more money for the ISU. There was a post in another thread which outright stated they would rather be paying to see "mature artists" than "jumpers", and I reckon the ISU thinks that this move will bring in more audiences that pay for the tickets.


How the ISU will gain back the people it isolates with this, I'm not sure.

Also, at least the netherlands person seemed very uninterested in actually researching what audience need.
He was keep of collecting information with sponsors, broadcasters (yeah, the ones that cannot even hire decent commentators should be very knowledgeable in how to develop FS), coaches and feds (national bias and personal interests anybody?), but every time we asked him if they actually plan to collect data about what the AUDIENCE WANTS TO SEE, he went silent.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
He was keep of collecting information with sponsors, broadcasters (yeah, the ones that cannot even hire decent commentators should be very knowledgeable in how to develop FS), coaches and feds (national bias and personal interests anybody?), but every time we asked him if they actually plan to collect data about what the AUDIENCE WANTS TO SEE, he went silent.

I really think the most of those proposals are based on their opinion what audience wants to see, how to make them to buy more tickets, how to promote sport and how to earn more money as a product of that. But the truth is, raising the min age is not the answer on that. If they want a solution, they should simply introduce wild card for worlds championships (which already exists in many other sports) - a special invitations by ISU for one athlete per discipline who they think will promote the sport and giving it if that one failed to qualify for Worlds!
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
I really think the most of those proposals are based on their opinion what audience wants to see, how to make them to buy more tickets, how to promote sport and how to earn more money as a product of that. But the truth is, raising the min age is not the answer on that. If they want a solution, they should simply introduce wild card for worlds championships (which already exists in many other sports) - a special invitations by ISU for one athlete per discipline who they think will promote the sport and giving it if that one failed to qualify for Worlds!

In singles, I imagine that invitation would always go to Japanese skaters, as they have by far the most avid fanbases in the sport. How would the ISU even determine if someone can promote the sport?
 

Grin

Medalist
Joined
May 17, 2017
In singles, I imagine that invitation would always go to Japanese skaters, as they have by far the most avid fanbases in the sport. How would the ISU even determine if someone can promote the sport?

If he/she is well-know icon and idol (like Yuzu/Caro).
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Have you ever watched someone actually doing figures? :slink:

I’d rather watch the zamboni honestly.

**Dodges Internet Fruit pies thrown at my avatar***

Not only watching. There were 2 reasons I quit figure skating at the age of 9: bullying by my classmates and my hating of figures.
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
I don’t need a study though. I see actual skaters everyday doing off and on ice training. I know they are going to push themselves. . You can’t regulate human ambition. Now you’re suggestion is just going to increase the time they have to train before they can compete which I believe will certainly cause just as many and likely more injuries. That’s a real issue to consider with your idea. Subjecting the athletes to the exact same and likely higher levels of training without the chance for reward and establishing themselves and a career doesn’t seem very beneficial.

There is health logic in the age proposal: as it will take more time to get to seniors many young skaters will quit earlier than with the current age limit. Hence, they will protect their health.

It won't kill figure skating as the most ambitious skaters will stay. Of course, there will be no positive effect on their health - one could argue it will be even negative. But, once again, on average the health of young figure skaters will improve as those who quit might pursue less dangerous sports like chess.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
I really think the most of those proposals are based on their opinion what audience wants to see, how to make them to buy more tickets, how to promote sport and how to earn more money as a product of that. But the truth is, raising the min age is not the answer on that. If they want a solution, they should simply introduce wild card for worlds championships (which already exists in many other sports) - a special invitations by ISU for one athlete per discipline who they think will promote the sport and giving it if that one failed to qualify for Worlds!

what bothers me is that they dont want to ask the audience about what the audience wants to see
 

RafaelAstro

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 22, 2018
Why is there an age eligibility to compete? a 10 years old girl should compete at olympics!!!!! they should have opportunity!!!!
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
The problem with asking the audience is that there are a number of different audiences:

*casual viewers who love other sports and whose biggest interest in skating is the jumping
-some are heavily offended by lots of falls; some enjoy the falls as part of the excitement

*casual viewers who love arts and whose biggest interest in skating is the beauty and expressiveness
-for some, this includes enjoying beautiful costumes and beautiful young women

-the above mainly watch on TV when convenient, maybe would be tickets to a not-too-long elite event in their home towns


*fans who love the sport as a whole with an emphasis on tech content and quality of various kinds

*fans who love the sport as a whole with an emphasis on artistry

*fans who love the sport as a whole and the balance between conflicting aspects

-fans who love the whole sport but only watch on TV and/or online

-fans who occasionally buy tickets to events in their home countries

-fans who often buy tickets to events in their home countries, including non-elite events

-fans who travel the world to watch skating

You're not going to find one version of the sport that will please all equally. If it skews too far in one direction, you'll lose some existing fans.

Some would argue that IJS-style skating has become too technical and less artistic and as a result lost fans who were more interested in the artistry/beauty.

Personally I disagree that IJS skating is less artistic than 6.0 skating, but if someone else thinks that is true, it's true for them. And if they have stopped watching as a result, that's a lost fan.

I think the days of marketing figure skating as a sport full of beautiful young women for men to ogle should be long past (and never should have been the point to begin with). If anything, there's probably more ogling of the male skaters among diehard fans, given the current demographics of fandom. But that can be a side effect, never the selling point.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
In singles, I imagine that invitation would always go to Japanese skaters, as they have by far the most avid fanbases in the sport. How would the ISU even determine if someone can promote the sport?

Its on them tho and what they think will earn them money and promote the sport, thats the point. They can call one athlete from different country per discipline and change it for every Worlds. From ladies for example - Sotnikova one year, next Asada, next Wagner or other who didnt qualify that year, for man Patrick Chan, Jason Brown, for pairs and dance maybe teams from smaller country where they want to promote the sport etc They can look how that model works in other sports. My point was if they want to promote the sport having 'idols' competing, thats the way how is done in other sports. To make them compete by rasing the age end eliminate their less known rivals is just not fair.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
You're not going to find one version of the sport that will please all equally. If it skews too far in one direction, you'll lose some existing fans.

Some would argue that IJS-style skating has become too technical and less artistic and as a result lost fans who were more interested in the artistry/beauty.

Personally I disagree that IJS skating is less artistic than 6.0 skating, but if someone else thinks that is true, it's true for them. And if they have stopped watching as a result, that's a lost fan.

I think the days of marketing figure skating as a sport full of beautiful young women for men to ogle should be long past (and never should have been the point to begin with). If anything, there's probably more ogling of the male skaters among diehard fans, given the current demographics of fandom. But that can be a side effect, never the selling point.

Agree that IJS is not less artistic, but it is more complicated for casual viewers. (To which I say, screw them. I will literally never understand how football is scored. If someone is into a sport, they will figure out how the system works. If they aren't really into it, they won't learn. Whatever. One of the reasons I will never understand how football is scored is that even when I ask people to explain it to me, I just don't care enough to actually take it all in. I'm a jerk.)

While figure skating has lost fans in the US since IJS, it has definitely gained fans in Japan (and maybe elsewhere). I'm not sure how it all balances out, but Yuzuru Hanyu is surely a bigger international icon than Michelle Kwan ever was? I think Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill were probably even bigger than Michelle in their own day - maybe Hanyu is bigger than them, too?

(Interesting topic would maybe be to discuss skating icons and who is/was the biggest in their eras and try to compare skaters from different eras, as difficult as that might be.)

I do find a lot of the discussion of the looks of young ladies to be troubling - it often crops up in the Russian ladies thread. Not sure how the popularity of the sport as a whole in Russia compares now to, say, decades ago. While ladies' is obviously more popular than ever as a discipline, is skating across all disciplines in Russia more popular than it was in the days of Gordeeva/Grinkov?

Anyway, I'm rambling.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Why is there an age eligibility to compete? a 10 years old girl should compete at olympics!!!!! they should have opportunity!!!!

I totally agree with you.
For example, it would be brilliant and symbolic if Trusova went to Olympics and landed her 2 quads there.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
The problem with asking the audience is that there are a number of different audiences:

*casual viewers who love other sports and whose biggest interest in skating is the jumping
-some are heavily offended by lots of falls; some enjoy the falls as part of the excitement

*casual viewers who love arts and whose biggest interest in skating is the beauty and expressiveness
-for some, this includes enjoying beautiful costumes and beautiful young women

-the above mainly watch on TV when convenient, maybe would be tickets to a not-too-long elite event in their home towns


*fans who love the sport as a whole with an emphasis on tech content and quality of various kinds

*fans who love the sport as a whole with an emphasis on artistry

*fans who love the sport as a whole and the balance between conflicting aspects

-fans who love the whole sport but only watch on TV and/or online

-fans who occasionally buy tickets to events in their home countries

-fans who often buy tickets to events in their home countries, including non-elite events

-fans who travel the world to watch skating

You're not going to find one version of the sport that will please all equally. If it skews too far in one direction, you'll lose some existing fans.

Some would argue that IJS-style skating has become too technical and less artistic and as a result lost fans who were more interested in the artistry/beauty.

Personally I disagree that IJS skating is less artistic than 6.0 skating, but if someone else thinks that is true, it's true for them. And if they have stopped watching as a result, that's a lost fan.

I think the days of marketing figure skating as a sport full of beautiful young women for men to ogle should be long past (and never should have been the point to begin with). If anything, there's probably more ogling of the male skaters among diehard fans, given the current demographics of fandom. But that can be a side effect, never the selling point.

That is actually not a problem, just part of the research plan.
Asking the audience is the only way to find out what audience wants to see.

Yes, you cannot please everybody, but if you have an estimate, for example, of how many people are in each of the groups you listed, and what those people want to see (not as a single thing, "ok, fans want to see jumps", but as a % of people who want to see each thing in each category), you can come up with a plan that will please the most people. Or a plan that will bring the most new viewers. Or a plan that maximizes the income, and so on.
But to do this, you actually need a good estimate of what audiences think.

That is a lot of work? Yes.
Is it worth it? Yes.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
I totally agree with you.
For example, it would be brilliant and symbolic if Trusova went to Olympics and landed her 2 quads there.

There are Youth Olympics for children.

Being an Olympian is ultimately a major pressure and responsibility that requires a certain measure of maturity and independence to handle. This is not to say that Trusova herself could not handle it (I'm sure she could, really), but I don't think anyone wants the sport or the Olympics to become dominated by children. In general, 15/16 year olds are going to be more mature and responsible than preteens. Preteens are going to be more mature and responsible than 8-9 year olds. The cutoff has to be somewhere.

Not to mention that child stardom has a whole bunch of nasty, negative effects on the child stars, and the fame that results from encouraging children to compete on the biggest international stage is going to have a negative impact on a lot of kids.

It's the Olympics, not Toddlers and Tiaras.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
That is actually not a problem, just part of the research plan.
Asking the audience is the only way to find out what audience wants to see.

Yes, you cannot please everybody, but if you have an estimate, for example, of how many people are in each of the groups you listed, and what those people want to see (not as a single thing, "ok, fans want to see jumps", but as a % of people who want to see each thing in each category), you can come up with a plan that will please the most people. Or a plan that will bring the most new viewers. Or a plan that maximizes the income, and so on.
But to do this, you actually need a good estimate of what audiences think.

That is a lot of work? Yes.
Is it worth it? Yes.

What gets the most ratings and fans does not equal the best sport. Yikes. Should we make skating more like American football or hockey since those have better ratings and make more money? Let's have multiple skaters do their programs at the same time and make it a contact sport, since that's what audiences like to see. Or make them lip sync their song lyrics while they skate. :rolleye:
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
I do find a lot of the discussion of the looks of young ladies to be troubling - it often crops up in the Russian ladies thread. Not sure how the popularity of the sport as a whole in Russia compares now to, say, decades ago. While ladies' is obviously more popular than ever as a discipline, is skating across all disciplines in Russia more popular than it was in the days of Gordeeva/Grinkov?

Anyway, I'm rambling.

The thing is that some of the skaters are continuing to grow the sport even after they leave. Yulia left competition at a young age but has already begun to inspire the next generation of skaters. She’s hardly left the sport. The link below features a skater who may not have even been born when Yulia went to the Olympics and yet you can see her inspiring kids like this all over with her new academy. Imagine learning from Yulia and then going home and looking up her amazing 2013-14 performances. That has got to inspire young kids which is going to continue to grow its popularity.

https://instagram.com/p/BjMtMZQjqaW/

I think people like Yulia can use their notoriety they gain at a young age to grow the sport and themselves at the same time. Serafima still competes and the rumors seem to suggest she wants to represent France although she always seems to be in Italy so maybe we’ll see her in the Olympics one day too.
 
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