Backloading Bonus Limited By ISU | Page 21 | Golden Skate

Backloading Bonus Limited By ISU

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The judges could see it that way. But there are many ways to define athletic: high jumps, backloaded jumps, insane step sequences, etc.

I wonder if it would be feasible to actually include backloading as an official bullet point for extra levels, etc. Then they could eleiminate the automatic 10% and let the judges reward the extra athleticism as they see fit along with the other criteria for an outstanding jump.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I wonder if it would be feasible to actually include backloading as an official bullet point for extra levels, etc. Then they could eleiminate the automatic 10% and let the judges reward the extra athleticism as they see fit along with the other criteria for an outstanding jump.

There are no levels on jumps.

Are you talking about GOE bullet points? How would you word it, so that judges would be given the option to apply that bullet as they see fit?

Would the referee still be timing when the second half starts, to be noted officially at the end of the program? Would judges award that bullet point after the fact, going back to change their scores minutes later? Or be notified somehow in the middle of the program when the second half started or keep track by looking away from the skater to a timing clock? Or just go by gut feeling?
 

Osmond4gold

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Joined
Jan 27, 2013
It wouldn't receive higher GOE, though, because jumps in the bonus are understandably lower in height and so might not clear the first 3 bullets to hit the rest

Depends on the jumper, as power jumpers are just that. Kaetlyn rec'd the highest GOE in Milan of all the jumps in the comp., for her 2nd half loop. Your theory is debunked, as it would easily meet all 3 bullets today as you referenced.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
What I would like to see is that a backloading bonus gives a noticeable, but not excessive advantage. Probably the example that bothered me the most is the Olympic team event and comparing Alina and Mirai's BV (http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_TeamLadies_FS_F_Scores.pdf)

Alina's BV tops Mirai's with a 3A and 7 other triples. Had Mirai achieved the highest levels on her non jump elements (add 1.0 to element 4, 0.6 to element 9), her 8 triple program's BV would only top Alina's by 0.16. Mirai even had 3 of her harder triples in the bonus. Leaving aside GOE and PCS, the BV of those programs shouldn't have even been close IMO. They both repeat the flip, but Alina repeats the lutz while Mirai does the toe. However, Mirai does the 3A while Alina only the 2A. I understand the argument that Mirai could have backloaded more of her jumps, but my problem is with the system that excessively rewards the jump bonus in the first place. I'm glad the changes will reflect a more fair and sensible approach.
Its just not fair to define Zagitovas tech advantage only on backloading, cause she achieved the same level of rarity Mirai (3A) achieved by demonstrating 3Lz 3Lo combo. I think its not correct to say how backloading was the only thing which made a difference :biggrin:
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Dec 29, 2013
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There are no levels on jumps.

Are you talking about GOE bullet points? How would you word it, so that judges would be given the option to apply that bullet as they see fit?

Would the referee still be timing when the second half starts, to be noted officially at the end of the program? Would judges award that bullet point after the fact, going back to change their scores minutes later? Or be notified somehow in the middle of the program when the second half started or keep track by looking away from the skater to a timing clock? Or just go by gut feeling?

You’d think the timekeeper could just hit a button that unlocks the extra bullet. I like the idea because like everything else it’s nice to leave the door open but let the judges award the points if the skater earns it.
 

BillNeal

You Know I'm a FS Fan...
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Joined
Jan 10, 2014
It wouldn't receive higher GOE, though, because jumps in the bonus are understandably lower in height and so might not clear the first 3 bullets to hit the rest

Watch Yuna's 3Lz (second one of the program) in the second half of her 2013 Worlds FS and pay attention to what Tracy says right after she lands it.
 

Harriet

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Oct 23, 2017
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Australia
Because why would you do it if it wouldn't help you? It IS a show of athleticism, which is why it should be rewarded, but if there's no use to it, why would a skater do something harder without getting rewarded for it?

Because the reward might be elsewhere - eg not GOE but PCS if the backloaded jump/s are well placed to the music and contribute to the program telling a story? Consider an SP that starts slowly with a step sequence, and builds to the three jumping passes going from smallest solo jump to big combo across the back two-thirds of the programme, and then resolves with a final spin. Using the jumps to create a mood or narrative that way, and doing it well, if it was matched to the music well, could help to boost your PCS scores in PE, CO and IN, and even more so now than previously because the judges will be less likely to read it as bonus-chasing. And following the music to place jumps rather than prioritising putting them in early for GOE could have long-term benefits by increasing your reputation as a skater with a strong artistic sensibility and a capacity for flexibility in terms of layout, which would also increase PCS over time - and help to build stamina so that the GOE would follow, too.

There are arguments against both partial and full backloading and arguments for it. Which one any given skater chooses will depend on what they prioritise, where they think their current strengths lie and what they want their career to look like over time. They're not always going to make choices based on just the here and now.
 

gkelly

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Joined
Jul 26, 2003
You’d think the timekeeper could just hit a button that unlocks the extra bullet. I like the idea because like everything else it’s nice to leave the door open but let the judges award the points if the skater earns it.

It's not as though the judges are ticking off bullets on the computer. They're ticking them off in their heads and maybe making notes on paper using whatever shorthand works best for them. So they could be alerted that it's time to start considering that bullet, but it's not a matter of officially locking or unlocking anything?
 

BillNeal

You Know I'm a FS Fan...
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Jan 10, 2014
For those who said that they haven't seen a program start with a step sequence before the last few seasons, check out Ross Miner's 2011 US Nationals FS. Unlike some choreographers and coaches, this was a tasteful program and was not done to squish all jumping passes in the second half. He had a 3/5 layout in jump distribution without putting 2 spins or the StSq and ChSt together. The element distribution works with the music and doesn't exploit music to tailor to backloaded elements. This is a choreographically sound program that begins with a step sequence.

Alina's program proved to be a disaster in Milan with 7 jumping passes separated by only one spin in between that did not allow any breathing room for her to recover in case of mistakes; as some people described it as a domino effect. But at least her FS worked somewhat with the music cuts when she performed it well. However, the same group of skaters skating to the same type of distribution regardless of the music made some of their programs disconnected and an eyesore to the audience.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Are you talking about GOE bullet points?

I guess so. Like various versions of GOE criteria mentioned specific features like Tano arm positions.

But I don't really think that this is a good idea. To me, the reason that backloading was pushed had more to do with the artistic side than the tech side. True, after the fact the ISU seemed to play up the point that it is hard to jump on tired legs, but at the inception it was more about an esthetically balance of highlight elements throughout the program.

(I know many fans disagree with my memory of ISU discussions and announcements, but I think it is historically accurate.)
 
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Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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It's not as though the judges are ticking off bullets on the computer. They're ticking them off in their heads and maybe making notes on paper using whatever shorthand works best for them. So they could be alerted that it's time to start considering that bullet, but it's not a matter of officially locking or unlocking anything?

True...maybe a big bell could ring like the last lap of speed skating :laugh2:

TBH...it’s only noticable in the SP from what I’ve seen where we will see more predictable layouts and kind of a throwback to old school frontloading. YMMV as to if that’s the goal and desirable.

I sort of liked the iron man challenge in the FS but I’m only one voice. Not everyone is as liberal as I am when it comes to awarding points and diversity in program layouts and that’s fine. I just wondered if anyone had noticed the SP’s being maybe a little less exciting as I had. That’s why I found this thread and posted my observation.
 

gkelly

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Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I guess so. Like various versions of GOE criteria gave mentioned specific features like Tano arm positions.

The relevant bullet point read "varied position in the air / delay in rotation" at least since 2010. I can't find exactly when the bullet point system was introduced, but sometime in the 2008-2010 period.

No official mention of specific variations of the position. One arm overhead is probably the easiest recognizable variation, so that's the one we saw the most of from the skaters.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Its just not fair to define Zagitovas tech advantage only on backloading, cause she achieved the same level of rarity Mirai (3A) achieved by demonstrating 3Lz 3Lo combo. I think its not correct to say how backloading was the only thing which made a difference :biggrin:

To be fair, I agree with you that difficult combos are also not rewarded enough, and Alina's 3/3 was the most impressive in the field. Still, Mirai doing 8 triples should clear Alina doing 7 triples in BV by more than 0.16 if they did the same spins and footwork.
 

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion
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Aug 25, 2017
Depends on the jumper, as power jumpers are just that. Kaetlyn rec'd the highest GOE in Milan of all the jumps in the comp., for her 2nd half loop. Your theory is debunked, as it would easily meet all 3 bullets today as you referenced.

Not really. Her loop could be higher if it were placed, say, at the very beginning of her skate, before the 3F-3T.
 

Ziotic

Medalist
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
To be fair, I agree with you that difficult combos are also not rewarded enough, and Alina's 3/3 was the most impressive in the field. Still, Mirai doing 8 triples should clear Alina doing 7 triples in BV by more than 0.16 if they did the same spins and footwork.

Completely agree! 8 triples should clear 7 easily especially with what a 3A should bring in points. I would say at least 3pts all other items being the same.

I also don’t think 3L combos will be all that rare anymore.

We’ve already seen a ton a Junoirs so them and quite a few seniors are doing them this year.
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
With all this talk... I want to actually weigh how Mirai's 3A in the team LP would weigh against the very, very late 3Lz-3Lo combo in Zag's Olympic LP. MN opened with the axel without anything before it -- a difficult feat to be sure. But AZ did that extremely late combo, the most difficult one to be attempted, and she did do a lot of work before it, although I still disagree that her footwork was extremely taxing (and her jump technique makes them somewhat easier, too, but still quite a bit of work).

I think the backloading bonuses, and the GOE assignments, lack a lot of nuance still, at least with the way they're usually assigned.
 

Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
I don't think a lot of fans has ever realized how difficult is to perform a fully backloaded program

1) It requires a very specific training to increase stamina since you're doing everything at the end of the program and still you need to make sure those jumps are clean (which is a problem for most of the skaters even with frontloaded combos). That's the reason why very few skaters were attempting this, and Tom Z admitted this in an interview during the Olympics. Some skater was working on it in the summer until ISU changed the rules.

2) 7 jumps in such a short time frame, means that if you fall there is almost no time to recover, you're more prone to bomb a program. If you take Alina's Don Quixote, by the old rules 3ltz, 3s, 3f, 2a could have been considered all part of a jumping sequence given how little time there is between the jumps.

I think the rules were just fine about the backloading advantage, there is a legit difficulty on landing all jumps at the end of the program.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
To be fair, I agree with you that difficult combos are also not rewarded enough, and Alina's 3/3 was the most impressive in the field. Still, Mirai doing 8 triples should clear Alina doing 7 triples in BV by more than 0.16 if they did the same spins and footwork.

I was always saying that is better solution to introduce more different type of bonuses (for combos, 8 triples programmes etc etc)... But my argument that after backload bonus is reinvented construction of every single programme is the same still stands... Look at free programmes of junior men at Bratislava for example. Almost all programmes started with 3 jump passes (rare one with 4 or 2). There is no variety at all... and nobody put a spin or steps between first two jumps! How is that construction of a programme more balanced than Alinas one? The only difference is that her programme started with StSq and CoSq. Placements of jumps and spins in corelation with eachother were even more balanced in Alinas programme...
 

Ziotic

Medalist
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
I guess for me the real difference is if I notice a program is backloaded. None of the full backloaded short programs bother me. None of Evgenias 2-5 bothered me and most of the junior ones didn’t bother me either but for some reason Alina’s was bad. Maybe it’s that I didn’t like her footwork but mostly the thing I notice is that she has very little ice coverage and it just looks meek.

I much prefer more ice coverage between elements.

I hate when two spins are literally next to each other on the ice and done one after another
 
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