Agreed. I presented eleven skaters over a number of posts who had some success domestically or internationally. I think Meisner, Czisny, Flatt, Nagasu, Wagner and Gold should all at least be in the discussion for HOF. Skaters E. Hughes, Zhang, Gao, Zawadski and Edmunds also had some success, but in my opinion not sufficient for a HOF berth.
US Ladies, Hall of Fame- Post Kwan, Cohen
- Thread starter b-man
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Agreed. I presented eleven skaters over a number of posts who had some success domestically or internationally. I think Meisner, Czisny, Flatt, Nagasu, Wagner and Gold should all at least be in the discussion for HOF. Skaters E. Hughes, Zhang, Gao, Zawadski and Edmunds also had some success, but in my opinion not sufficient for a HOF berth.
This is an interesting topic!
I can see Flatt, depending on what happens, perhaps getting a nod if she's recognized for post-career efforts to improve skating through her psychology research and there's some traction.
https://medium.com/stanford-magazin...ete-mental-health-and-body-image-4925ab34ae45
I can see Flatt, depending on what happens, perhaps getting a nod if she's recognized for post-career efforts to improve skating through her psychology research and there's some traction.
https://medium.com/stanford-magazin...ete-mental-health-and-body-image-4925ab34ae45
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I have to plead ignorance, I'm afraid, when it comes to insight into the selection process. For one thing, doesn't the USFSA solicit nominations from fans as well as from skating insiders for consideration? Maybe we can all gang up and get our fave on the ballot some time in the future!
http://www.usfsa.org/Content/USHOF_criteria.pdf
I am comparing, for instance, Mirai
with the pairs team of Inoue and Baldwin. I&B are not in the Hall, but they retired only in 2010 so maybe they will be put up for the honor at some later time. They medalled at Nationals for eight straight years, with two championships. They went to worlds six times, with a 4th place finish in 2006. They went to the Olympics in the same year and finished 7th. They have a Four Continents title and a win at Skate America -- otherwise their record on the Grand Prix is only so-so. They are credited with landing the first throw triple Axel. I would consider them very solid on the national scene and with at least a presence internationally. Is this enough?
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Does not matter in terms of the HOF discussion, but I strongly disagree with how you characterized the role of college in the careers of Gao and Edmunds.
I have very little knowledge of how Gao or Edmund's skating careers were affected by college, and I said very little on it. Anything I learned was from reading GS or another forum. Much, as I recall, was speculation on how sorority life affected Edmunds. I actually had little interest in the topic. I think I also mentioned how Flatt's interests seemed more focused on Stanford than skating at the end of her career. Please correct any errors I've made.
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The little that you said was subjective and unfair, IMO.
For Gao, I take issue with your phrasing of, "... when her interests moved to Harvard."
As a full-time student at Harvard in 2012-13, Christina qualified for GPF, placed fifth at Nats, and placed fourth at Four Continents.
In order to take her best shot at making the Olympic team, she took a leave of absence from Harvard for the semester leading up to 2014 Nats, where she unfortunately placed eighth.
For the discussion re HOF, all that you had to say was: "At Nationals, she had four 5th place finishes in a row, followed with an 8th and 11th." Without adding your (insupportable, IMO) opinion that Harvard had anything to do with a placement of eighth after previous placements of fifth.
For Edmunds, all that you had to say was: With "continuing bone bruise problems, she again WD from the San Jose FS."
She happened to be attending college, but it was unnecessary (and unwarranted, IMO) to imply that supposed "college conflicts" were a factor in her withdrawal.
As you said, what was on GS was mere speculation as to whether sorority life (as opposed to injury) is what affected her skating. It is equally plausible (IMO) that if she had not been injured, she would have exercised good time management skills in balancing full training with sorority life -- as Meryl Davis (who lived in a sorority house for a year) did.
(I remember less about Flatt's history one way or the other so will leave that subject alone.)
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^ Oh, I think you are being too hard on b-man's casual one-liners about the challenges of going to college full time while also competing at the highest levels in skating. There are only so many hours in a day and many top skaters, like Christina Gao, find the need to take a leave of absence from school to pursue a particular figure skating objective, like making the Olympic team. Here is an article from Harvard, told mostly by a friend and classmate of Christina's, about Christina's journey.
https://harvardmagazine.com/2015/07/christina-gao-figure-skater
https://harvardmagazine.com/2015/07/christina-gao-figure-skater
Agree
. Ashley's silver Worlds medal being the greatest individual achievement for a US Ladies skater post-Cohen says it all about US Ladies Skating in the last decade. I think Ashley might be rewarded for breaking the drought, but her not making the last Olympics team might take away a little from her record. I honestly don't see a skater with the same star quality or calibre as a Michelle Kwan or Sasha Cohen. Mirai had the potential to be the next star but never maintained her momentum. Ashley had the personality but just not the same quality or consistency. Alissa was beautiful but did not have the technical content or consistency, though her Winter into Spring LP was one of my favorite IJS programs. Hopefully, this will change in the near future. I think Star Andrews has a lot of potential but she might need to change her coach and choreographer to really make an impact.
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You missed my point re Christina's leave of absence.
As a full-time Harvard student, Christina placed fifth at 2013 Nats; during her leave from Harvard, she placed eighth in 2014. It does not make sense to chalk up her lower placement to "when her interests moved to Harvard."
If anything, her interests temporarily moved away from Harvard during the Olympic season, as demonstrated by her leave of absence.
I would not have had a problem with neutral mentions that Christina and Polina attended college.
But I object to the "casual" extrapolations/assumptions that college was the reason for Christina's lower placement or a reason for Polina's withdrawal from the free skate. (Two days earlier -- when Polina was a college student -- her short program exceeded the expectations of many.)
Will stop hijacking the thread.
[ETA:
I obviously understand that it is challenging to go to college and to train/compete at the same time. Countless times in other threads, I have applauded scholar-skaters, including Christina and Polina.
That said, I stand by my comments in this thread in response specifically to what b-man wrote.]
That said, I stand by my comments in this thread in response specifically to what b-man wrote.]
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Agree
Apart from the hardware Michelle & Sasha are remembered for various things they were able to bring to the sport. E.g. from some recent discussion here on the GS - Sasha's Juliet was 'nominated' as the best ever by majority of posters, her layback spin - as one of the very best and so on, not to mention her spirals which are copied by generations of young skaters ever since. I just don't see any US lady since of same calibre no offence to many talented skaters but here it is, most of them have a potential but somehow they just dont seem to make it
I agree with much of what you and Ballade88 said. Michelle and Sasha were both stars. Michelle for 5 WGMs, and Sasha for her gorgeous skating and beautiful lines. I could watch Sasha for hours, in fact I just replayed her skating for an hour.
But they had advantages the next generation did not have. There was a boom in Ladies skating in the US post the Harding/ Kerrigan incident that lasted through the 2006 Olympics. Who was there to take advantage of that interest? Kwan in large part, and Cohen to a lesser extent. Cohen also had an advantage in having Uncle Dick as a proponent and supporter. Most even casual fans loved and trusted Uncle Dick's judgement. I certainly did. If Uncle Dick declared Cohen's positions, lines, toe points the best, the public followed. Sasha did her part, but Uncle Dick helped make her a star.
The next generation had no Uncle Dick supporting them. They could not get by with 3-2 combos any longer. Skating was out of favor in the US, in part when Sasha lost the Gold in '06, and also when Flatt and Nagasu didn't medal in Vancouver. It's hard to be a star when there is little interest in the sport. What had been an American dominated discipline for 50 years was no longer dominated by Americans. Kwan and Cohen's competitors were more often than not other Americans. Yes, Kwan and Cohen had their rivals Slutskaya and Arakawa, But the Nagasu's and Wagners faced a steady diet of Kim, Asada, Ando, Kostner, Tuk, Sotnikova, Miyahara, Medvedeva, Osmond and Zagitova.
The quality, the depth, and quantity of skaters facing Czisny, Nagasu, Wagner and Gold internationally exceeded that faced by previous American champions. That doesn't make them lesser skaters, but it did make them less successful.
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- Jun 21, 2003
An excellent point. On the men's side we have the example of Johnny Weir. Will he make the U. S. Hall of Fame one day? I think he is a shoo-in. He has a solid if not spectacular competitive resume. But more importantly, he has become the face and voice of U.S. men's figure skating, and has done so with flair. He is much more famous than his one-time rival, Hall of Famer Evan Lysacek.
In fact, Weir's record is quite similar to Ashley Wagner's.
Weir: 3 U.S. championships
1 World medal (bronze)
1 Olympic appearance (5th)
4 Grand Prix victories
2 GP Finals medals
Wagner: 3 U.S. championships
1 World medal (silver)
1 Olympic appearance (7th)
5 Grand Prix victories
3 GP Finals medals
Actually, Ashley has the edge with a Four Continents gold and a total of five GP Finals appearances.
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In reference to my earlier point, here's a relatively recent article about Rachael and her PHD work at UNC.
https://www.unc.edu/discover/rachae...ael+Flatt&utm_medium=bitly&utm_source=Twitter
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As a HUGE Weir (the skater) fan and an Ashley fan not so much, I have to agree with you here. My feeling has always been that Weir didn't live up to his potential because CoP doesn't favor the kind of skater that he started out being and he got sucked into the writhing-around-the-ice style favored by Russian point-getters including his coach. Unfortunately, I can't quite put him in HoF, even if you consider his once very good, now dumbed down commentary.
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I'll remember Ashley for her grit. Although she was often the these athletically and artistically gifted skater in the field, she willed her way to the podium often, even while dealing with concussions. I'm not saying skaters should compete injured or hurt, but the rest of the US ladies can learn a lot from her grit (I also am a Karen Chen fan, but if she was scored correctly for her blatants underrotations, Ashley would have been the 2017 National Champion and on the 2018 Olympic team).
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i do agree with this, and even the fact that she didn't emote hardly at all through most of her senior career except the first couple years. i also don't think she's met enough of the criteria as far as international success goes, and maybe even national. but i think her landing the triple axel at the olympics is something USFS will seriously consider as HOF material. it is a very notable moment not just for US figure skating but world wide, and made history. she was the first US lady to land it at the olympic games.
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Alissa I think contributed to the sport with her gorgeous spins.
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So many good points have been made throughout the thread! For me, re: the ladies, I think only two are Hall of Fame material:
For me, MEISSNER for her World gold (watered down field argument has never been persuasive to me in general because it still takes a lot just to get to the WC, and you can only defeat those who dare to show up -- and in an Olympic year, if the Olympians don't go, that's on them, not on those who do go to Worlds; also, in this particular case, Cohen WAS there, as were Fumie [in her prime] and Joannie, etc. -- surely Cohen should have plucked this gold if indeed doing so were that easy), her triple axel -- basically, a short but stellar career.
And also WAGNER for WSM and total body of work.
For me, MEISSNER for her World gold (watered down field argument has never been persuasive to me in general because it still takes a lot just to get to the WC, and you can only defeat those who dare to show up -- and in an Olympic year, if the Olympians don't go, that's on them, not on those who do go to Worlds; also, in this particular case, Cohen WAS there, as were Fumie [in her prime] and Joannie, etc. -- surely Cohen should have plucked this gold if indeed doing so were that easy), her triple axel -- basically, a short but stellar career.
And also WAGNER for WSM and total body of work.
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I don't think landing one jump at one event should be enough for even a Nationals HOF in the US. What I think is most problematic about that is it opens the door to a lot of skaters feeling like they deserve to get in, as most of the top skaters in the last 10 years have superior H2H records against Mirai. Only once in her senior career did she have a season (2009-10) in which she was arguably the best US woman, and it hasn't been an especially deep field in the last decade.
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