Trusova and Quads

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 16, 2018

Shayuki said:
Oh, I see. Well, that just makes no sense. If we watch any Men's skating for instance, the vast majority of the mid-end skaters do have 3As yet have no quads. Heck, even with the quadsters there are several more ladies with 3As than quads.

I do think it is more about the points. We saw a lot of 3A attempts in the past (Ito, Harding, Asada, Nagasu, Nelidina, Nakano, Kihara, Meissner, Onda, with the first 7 landing successful ones) and only a handful of quad attempts (Bonaly, Cohen, Ando, with Ando the only successful one) before this generation of Russian juniors started landing them. It's also interesting to note that no quads have been landed at the senior level, while most of the 3A's have been.

Edit: Forgot to include Liza and her 3A, making 8 women successfully landing the jump internationally

Shayuki · Oct 16, 2018

drivingmissdaisy said:
I do think it is more about the points. We saw a lot of 3A attempts in the past (Ito, Harding, Asada, Nagasu, Nelidina, Nakano, Kihara, Meissner, Onda, with the first 7 landing successful ones) and only a handful of quad attempts (Bonaly, Cohen, Ando, with Ando the only successful one) before this generation of Russian juniors started landing them. It's also interesting to note that no quads have been landed at the senior level, while most of the 3A's have been.

Edit: Forgot to include Liza and her 3A, making 8 women successfully landing the jump internationally

Due to the new rule changes, it's a lot more beneficial to learn a 3A than a second quad, because you can repeat the 3A but can't repeat a second quad. Trusova going for 2 different quads before adding a 3A speaks against it being about the points. It's not about the points ... It's about achieving something no one's ever achieved before.

moriel · Oct 16, 2018

Shayuki said:
Due to the new rule changes, it's a lot more beneficial to learn a 3A than a second quad, because you can repeat the 3A but can't repeat a second quad. Trusova going for 2 different quads before adding a 3A speaks against it being about the points. It's not about the points ... It's about achieving something no one's ever achieved before.

I thought you could only repeat 3A in combination? Which is pretty much same as quads.
Since juniors cannot do 3A in SP, that means they can only do two 3As, in FS, one single and one in combo. But its the same with quads, so right now.

katymay · Oct 16, 2018

Trusova and Scherbekova now have company, a beautiful 4L done by Young You was posted today.

neusw · Oct 16, 2018

katymay said:
Trusova and Scherbekova now have company, a beautiful 4L done by Young You was posted today.

Good to see that future competitions will depend as much on consistency with the very difficult elements as simply being willing/able to attempt or rotate them. If there is to be a technical revolution in senior ladies skating, I hope it comes via clean, successful jumps instead of shaky attempts that are only put into programs because of the possibility of a few extra points in base value.

Actually, this really makes me wonder which ladies skaters in the past would've been able to do quads if they had seriously trained them. I feel like previous generations either did not think jumps like 4Lz were possible for women, or maybe tried quads a few times but never seriously worked on them because it simply wasn't necessary and might've negatively affected their consistency on triples. Any candidates for past high jumping/fast rotating ladies who could've done it if they were training in today's competitive environment?

moriel · Oct 16, 2018

neusw said:
Good to see that future competitions will depend as much on consistency with the very difficult elements as simply being willing/able to attempt or rotate them. If there is to be a technical revolution in senior ladies skating, I hope it comes via clean, successful jumps instead of shaky attempts that are only put into programs because of the possibility of a few extra points in base value.

I think what matters is not just consistency with hard elements.
Quads enable skaters to do more difficult everything else (for example, 3 3-3 combos), so small mistakes on quads are not a big deal, since its still an advantage. You just cannot fall and UR at once.
But the major thing is the ability to skate EVRYTHING ELSE without mistakes. This was what enabled Trusova to win last season - she made mistakes on quads on most competitions, but everything else was perfect, which still allowed her to get a very nice score. On the other hand, look at someone like Mirai or Mao - the 3A was not really setting them apart, because usually they would do other mistakes, which a clean 3A would not compensate.

neusw · Oct 16, 2018

moriel said:
I think what matters is not just consistency with hard elements.
Quads enable skaters to do more difficult everything else (for example, 3 3-3 combos), so small mistakes on quads are not a big deal, since its still an advantage. You just cannot fall and UR at once.
But the major thing is the ability to skate EVRYTHING ELSE without mistakes. This was what enabled Trusova to win last season - she made mistakes on quads on most competitions, but everything else was perfect, which still allowed her to get a very nice score. On the other hand, look at someone like Mirai or Mao - the 3A was not really setting them apart, because usually they would do other mistakes, which a clean 3A would not compensate.

Yes, you're right. It takes a high degree of mental toughness (and physical endurance!) to skate the rest of the program clean regardless of how the quads go. I just hope that when there are multiple senior ladies attempting quads, at least a good proportion of them will be decently successful, instead of everyone repeatedly under-rotating/falling, but keeping quads in their program regardless just because of the base value and the possibility that once in a blue moon they may have a successful attempt.

moriel · Oct 16, 2018

neusw said:
Yes, you're right. It takes a high degree of mental toughness (and physical endurance!) to skate the rest of the program clean regardless of how the quads go. I just hope that if there are multiple ladies attempting quads, at least some of them will be reasonably successful, instead of everyone repeatedly under-rotating/falling, but keeping quads in their program regardless just because of the base value.

i believe that a number of ladies will try adding one quad, which they will fall and UR a lot.
Kinda same as happens with 3A to some degree already.

jenaj · Oct 17, 2018

neusw said:
And there are plenty of skaters who can learn a 3A faster than any quads. See: every woman who’s learned a 3A and most men who can’t do quads. Your argument that a 3A is harder because there’s a couple notable examples of people who are better at quads than 3A is ridiculous. If Nathan or Sasha had put as much effort and energy into learning the 3A as they spent on multiple quads, I guarantee you they’d be much better at the 3A. They prioritized bigger point getters, and rightfully so.

My argument is that the 3A is under-valued in IJS, at least for the ladies. The fact is that Trusova and the other quad babies can't do the 3A. If they are such quick learners, they shouldn't have to put much effort into it.

moriel · Oct 17, 2018

jenaj said:
My argument is that the 3A is under-valued in IJS, at least for the ladies. The fact is that Trusova and the other quad babies can't do the 3A. If they are such quick learners, they shouldn't have to put much effort into it.

Its kinda simple, 3A should be worth less than a quad. This makes sense somehow, same as 2A being worth less than triples.
So no matter what system, for juniors, 3A will have less value than a quad, because you can jump same number of both, but quads have higher value.

If you say 3A is undervalued, please explain why 3A should be worth more than certain quads, and what quads, and also how that would work for 2A and triples.

VenusHalley · Oct 17, 2018

moriel said:
i believe that a number of ladies will try adding one quad, which they will fall and UR a lot.
Kinda same as happens with 3A to some degree already.

I just hope that the next Olympics is not won by splatfest of some jumping kid that attempts five quads and lands two semisuccesfuly (barely holding to it... but somehow receiving +5 GOE for "good save").

samkrut@mail.ru · Oct 17, 2018

VenusHalley said:
I just hope that the next Olympics is not won by splatfest of some jumping kid that attempts five quads and lands two semisuccesfuly (barely holding to it... but somehow receiving +5 GOE for "good save").

Next Olympics like previous 2 ones will be likely won by a Russian skater who will be the best of a dozen of extraordinary Russian skaters.

Shayuki · Oct 17, 2018

moriel said:
I thought you could only repeat 3A in combination? Which is pretty much same as quads.
Since juniors cannot do 3A in SP, that means they can only do two 3As, in FS, one single and one in combo. But its the same with quads, so right now.

My point is that you can't repeat two quads. So a 3A is more useful to learn than a second quad.

Even moreso in seniors, where a 3A is the most beneficial single jump to learn due to its usability in SP.

Mathman · Oct 17, 2018

moriel said:
Its kinda simple, 3A should be worth less than a quad. This makes sense somehow, same as 2A being worth less than triples.
So no matter what system, for juniors, 3A will have less value than a quad, because you can jump same number of both, but quads have higher value.

If you say 3A is undervalued, please explain why 3A should be worth more than certain quads, and what quads, and also how that would work for 2A and triples.

JenaJ didn't say that a 3A should be worth more than a quad, just that it should be worth more than the current scale of values gives it, and closer in value to a quad toe or quad Salchow.

It ought to go like this: every extra revolution makes the jump three times as hard. So a toe loop should be

1T = .40 (current value)
2T = 1.20 (current value is 1.30)
3T = 3.60 (current value is too high at 4.20)
4T = 10.8 (current value is too low at 9.50)

Axels should go like this:

1A = 1.10 (current value)
2A = 3.30 (current value)
3A = 9.90 (current value is a paltry 8.00)

Both 3As and quads are undervalued, and they should be slightly closer together. Elect me as ISU president and I will straighten it all out. :yes:

chopinskate · Oct 17, 2018

Mathman said:
JenaJ didn't say that a 3A should be worth more than a quad, just that it should be worth more than the current scale of values gives it, and closer in value to a quad toe or quad Salchow.

It ought to go like this: every extra revolution makes the jump three times as hard. So a toe loop should be

1T = .40 (current value)
2T = 1.20 (current value is 1.30)
3T = 3.60 (current value is too high at 4.20)
4T = 10.8 (current value is too low at 9.50)

Axels should go like this:

1A = 1.10 (current value)
2A = 3.30 (current value)
3A = 9.90 (current value is a paltry 8.00)

Both 3As and quads are undervalued, and they should be slightly closer together. Elect me as ISU president and I will straighten it all out. :yes:

How would you penalize falls?

Mathman · Oct 17, 2018

chopinskate said:
How would you penalize falls?

I don't have a formula for falls. I go back and forth. I would like to say that if you fall, then you didn't do the element and you should get zero points. That seems right in a sporting sense -- like in pole vaulting, if you knock the bar off, you get nothing no matter how pretty your form was.

But that goes against the spirit of the iJS which says that you should get at least a few fractions of a point for every little thing you do -- something for the entry, something for the take-off, something for the air position, something for the rotations, something for the landing, something for musical timing. Plus, there is the problem of what constitutes a fall as opposed to a save.

So I stay out of these debates.

moriel · Oct 17, 2018

Shayuki said:
My point is that you can't repeat two quads. So a 3A is more useful to learn than a second quad.

Even moreso in seniors, where a 3A is the most beneficial single jump to learn due to its usability in SP.

Could you bring some layout examples to show this? I am bad at layout making, and the best i could come up with 1 quad and a 3A is:

Layout with quad and a 3A:
4T+3T - 13,7
4T - 9,5
3A - 8,0
3A+2T - 9,3
3Lo - 4,9
3Lz+1Eu+3S - 10,7
3F - 5,3
Repeats: 4T, 3A
Total jump BV: 61,4

vs

Trusova's layout with 2 quads:
4T+3T - 13,7
4T - 9,5
4Lz - 11,5
2A - 3,3
3Lz+3Lo - 10,8
3Lz+1Eu+3S - 10,7
3F - 5,3
Repeats: 4T, 3Lz
Total jump BV: 64,8

Spirals for Miles · Oct 17, 2018

Not comparable. Here's how to compare:

4T+3T
4T
3A+3Lo
3A
3Lz+1Eu+3S
3F
2A

versus

4T+3T
4T
4Lz
3A
3Lz+3Lo
3Lz+1Eu+3S
3F

don't know BV though

moriel · Oct 17, 2018

Mathman said:
JenaJ didn't say that a 3A should be worth more than a quad, just that it should be worth more than the current scale of values gives it, and closer in value to a quad toe or quad Salchow.

It ought to go like this: every extra revolution makes the jump three times as hard. So a toe loop should be

1T = .40 (current value)
2T = 1.20 (current value is 1.30)
3T = 3.60 (current value is too high at 4.20)
4T = 10.8 (current value is too low at 9.50)

Axels should go like this:

1A = 1.10 (current value)
2A = 3.30 (current value)
3A = 9.90 (current value is a paltry 8.00)

Both 3As and quads are undervalued, and they should be slightly closer together. Elect me as ISU president and I will straighten it all out. :yes:

if you ever apply for that job, we will vote for you.
you can also have a campaign based on your superior knowledge on flash drive usage

- - - Updated - - -

Spirals for Miles said:
Not comparable. Here's how to compare:

4T+3T
4T
3A+3Lo
3A
3Lz+1Eu+3S
3F
2A

versus

4T+3T
4T
4Lz
3A
3Lz+3Lo
3Lz+1Eu+3S
3F

don't know BV though

Ummm, we are talking about 3A vs second quad. Both of your layouts have 3A in them.

moriel · Oct 17, 2018

4T+3T - 13,7
4T - 9,5
3A+3Lo - 12,9
3A - 8,0
3Lz+1Eu+3S - 10,7
3F - 5,3
2A - 3,3
BV: 63,4

The BV is still lower than Trusova's 2 quad program with 4T and 4Lz and no 3A.

Trusova and Quads

drivingmissdaisy

Shayuki

moriel

katymay

neusw

moriel

neusw

moriel

jenaj

moriel

VenusHalley

[email protected]

Medalist

Shayuki

Mathman

chopinskate

Mathman

moriel

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

moriel

moriel

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