2018-19 U.S. Men’s figure skating | Page 24 | Golden Skate

2018-19 U.S. Men’s figure skating

discode

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
More angles to see Vincent UR isn't going to help him. I'm seriously confused why this is a "controversy". Vincent is known as someone who does UR jumps a lot and the rule change made this even tougher, which he was already struggling with. Put 2+ 2 together and figure out what's going to happen. And it'll happen again now that everyone is going to be watching his jumps, unless he makes changes. And he wasn't the only person dinged for UR jumps and edge calls.

I'm sure it's frustrating, but all you can do is fix what the judges are telling you to fix.

Tom Z's tone wasn't bad, but it's a whole lot of Vincent did nothing wrong see here is a tweet and this cost him the podium and it was not his fault. I'm not sure that's the right attitude to take, but I'm not a coach so what do I know.
 

Metis

Shepherdess of the Teal Deer
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Feb 14, 2018
More angles to see Vincent UR isn't going to help him. I'm seriously confused why this is a "controversy". Vincent is known as someone who does UR jumps a lot and the rule change made this even tougher, which he was already struggling with. Put 2+ 2 together and figure out what's going to happen. And it'll happen again now that everyone is going to be watching his jumps, unless he makes changes. And he wasn't the only person dinged for UR jumps and edge calls.

I'm sure it's frustrating, but all you can do is fix what the judges are telling you to fix.

So am I, but I’ve been screaming about his URs for a long time.

I actually think his low GOEs are more of an issue. In the Skate America free, the best he did was 5 +3s, and his range was locked to +1-+3. Which was on a StSq that was given a Level 1, so he added less than half a point. The 3Lz was the only jump to get a +3, and his spins are in the 0-+2 range, with one exception (0-+3). Which, to me, seems entirely fair (and some other people probably belong in that range as well), but it’s still a lot of points he’s losing.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
… Actually I was wondering this the other night while watching, can official appeals/complaints be made against the judging? I know they can in gymnastics but I can’t recall ever hearing about that happening in skating

afaik, ISU rules do not allow official protests/appeals regarding tech calling and judging.

Excerpt from Rule 123 from the ISU Constitution:

4. Protest Restrictions

In line with the generally accepted international sports concept according to which “field of play decisions” are not subject to correction and/or review, the score or time achieved by a Competitor during a segment, race or qualifying round of a competition is final, as a matter of principle, once the decision(s) of the competent Official(s) is/are announced by the official announcer and/or displayed on the score board or video screen of the competition. Consequently, the following restrictions for protests apply:

A. Figure Skating

a) No protests against evaluations by Referees, Judges and the Technical Panel (Technical Controller, Technical Specialists) of Skaters’ performances are allowed.

b) Protests against results are permitted only in the case of incorrect mathematical calculation. A wrong identification of an element or of a level of difficulty, although it results in a lower or higher score is not an incorrect mathematical calculation.


https://isu.org/inside-single-pair-skating-ice-dance/figure-skating-rules/constitution-fs (see pages 127-129)​
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I watched Vincent's SP and LP and after seeing the jumps in slow-motion, I think the only two calls that were wrong were the SP 4F<, which I think probably should have gotten full credit, and the LP 3A<, which I thought was actually <<. I also feel like doing 12 toe-pick jumps and 2 edge jumps (of the same type) in a competition doesn't show enough variety, so I'm not sure if the judges view that negatively as well.
 

Metis

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Feb 14, 2018
I watched Vincent's SP and LP and after seeing the jumps in slow-motion, I think the only two calls that were wrong were the SP 4F<, which I think probably should have gotten full credit, and the LP 3A<, which I thought was actually <<. I also feel like doing 12 toe-pick jumps and 2 edge jumps (of the same type) in a competition doesn't show enough variety, so I'm not sure if the judges view that negatively as well.

The LP 3A was absolutely worth a <<. I was surprised it was only called UR.

I doubt Vincent will ever take a hit in CO for his layouts. 7.50-8.25, which ended as a 7.75. It’s a minor(ish) nitpick I have with Chen — he’s an amazing toe-jumper, but I’m not sure you can give 9.50+ CO marks when the first three jumping passes are the flip and the Lutz, though at least he usually has the Loop for another edge jump. If Vincent were going to be judged for showing lack of variety, it should be in CO (and informal feedback). But we all know PCS is a mess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
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Admittedly, one thing that is irking me about this post of Z's is simply this:

Where was his passion for correct UR calling two years ago? More specifically, on the 24th January, 2016? Or does he only care about URs when it's his skater getting called for them, and being disadvantaged by them, and not when his skater is the one being disadvantaged by them not being called?
 

mrrice

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Jul 9, 2014
Admittedly, one thing that is irking me about this post of Z's is simply this:

Where was his passion for correct UR calling two years ago? More specifically, on the 24th January, 2016? Or does he only care about URs when it's his skater getting called for them, and being disadvantaged by them, and not when his skater is the one being disadvantaged by them not being called?

:confused2:.....Can you be more specific? I think I know where you're going but, I don't want to upset anyone.
 

karne

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:confused2:.....Can you be more specific? I think I know where you're going but, I don't want to upset anyone.

Sure. Where was Z's passion for correct UR calling when Rippon's 4Lz was incorrectly called < instead of << and his 3Lz-3T wasn't called < at all, which cost Max his second National title? Something a bit more important than a GP bronze?

In the scheme of things, it's not the biggest thing annoying about Z's post, but it's like the mosquito bite just below the rim of the cast on your broken arm. Not your worst issue, but really fracking annoying.
 

century2009

On the Ice
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Mar 15, 2018
If Tom Z is oblivious about the underrotations on Vincent and making a bit of excuse, then Vincent really needs to find another coach. And dont think Tom is doing any justice for him.

I dont mind Tom as a coach but it is clear he ignores this type of problems when his other skaters also underrotates well.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
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Aug 25, 2017
If you want to make an argument about URs being too costly under the updated scoring system, I’d probably agree — I’ve never been in love with the idea that you can lose half your BV on a fall, and the BV reduction for URs is a much steeper penalty now that BV is lower. As soon as we started getting details on the system, I said TES was going to be volatile, and we’re seeing skaters lose 7 points after they leave the ice. Which has its pros and cons, but if you’re planning a programme for Vincent, it’s arguably worth rethinking whether or not to go for the 4Lz and 4F, solo and in combination, if you think there’s a >=50% chance that it’s going to tagged as UR (especially with Vincent’s flip edge issues). If you crunch the numbers, it’s the 3Lz that received the biggest change in terms of max score — and the 3Lz was Vincent’s best scoring element at Skate America.

This is what I’ve been saying!
They’ve penalized slight UR so much that it might not be worth attempting quads anymore. So if the scoring system is still supposed to incentivize big jumps, it doesn’t really work.
 

vorravorra

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
This is what I’ve been saying!
They’ve penalized slight UR so much that it might not be worth attempting quads anymore. So if the scoring system is still supposed to incentivize big jumps, it doesn’t really work.
It's 90 degrees or more that is penalised, which isn't really slight. it may not be worth attempting big jumps if you do them like Vincent, it's true.
 

Jaana

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This is what I’ve been saying!
They’ve penalized slight UR so much that it might not be worth attempting quads anymore. So if the scoring system is still supposed to incentivize big jumps, it doesn’t really work.

There are skaters that are doing big jumps and Zhou could do them as well, he just needs to learn to rotate his jumps fully like many other skaters are able to do.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
They’ve penalized slight UR so much that it might not be worth attempting quads anymore. So if the scoring system is still supposed to incentivize big jumps, it doesn’t really work.

Vincent got +GOE on only 2 of his 10 jumping passes, got 7 < calls and 2 ! calls, and still only missed the podium because he started his SP late. So it seems there is still plenty of incentive to keep that base value high with difficult jumps.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Sure. Where was Z's passion for correct UR calling when Rippon's 4Lz was incorrectly called < instead of << and his 3Lz-3T wasn't called < at all, which cost Max his second National title? Something a bit more important than a GP bronze?

In the scheme of things, it's not the biggest thing annoying about Z's post, but it's like the mosquito bite just below the rim of the cast on your broken arm. Not your worst issue, but really fracking annoying.

There's a difference between advocating that your skater shouldn't have gotten such severe deductions, versus advocating that your skater's competitor should have gotten more severe deductions.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
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Dec 27, 2009
Had Tom made this statement like let's say leading up to an ISU Congress (where they can actually bring forth proposals and such), then maybe folks could hash this out more.

Doing this now, no matter how much he congratulates the medalists and tries to neutralize the issue, come off as self-serving. I would have at least have waited a few weeks rather than the day after the competition. Just my two cents. Also it could totally backfire on him because the tech panel might be more inclined to not give him the benefit of the doubt.

Regarding my earlier statement --- I do think that the tech panel have gone to extremes with Vincent. He had ZERO URs at Junior Worlds 2017 FS and Worlds 2018 SP and just 1 at 2018 Olympics FS. Yes he gets a lot of URs and DGs in his other competitions, but I scratch my head and wonder why they were completely overlooked in these three segments.


ETA: To pivot and look ahead, this situation does make Vincent's status as U.S. No. 2 a bit murky for now. It could provide some movement for a hungry junior skater like Camden Pulkinen and Tomoki Hiwatashi or a comeback veteran like Jason Brown.

However, Vincent always seem to peak later in the season (see the last two seasons/Jr. Worlds/Olympics as reference) so I am reluctant to declare definitivelyor say it's definitely a no go. He could just as well snatch it back at Nationals, like he did last year.

Out of those currently competing, only Nathan has beaten Vincent in domestic/international competition (I don't know Ross Miner's status and Max Aaron, who, incidentally has beat Vincent, 3-1, in their face-to-face matchups last season, is retired). Jason Brown has yet to beat Vincent domestically and none of the junior skaters have beat Vincent either. Vincent will face Alexander Johnson at NHK Trophy, which means he won't see Jason, Camden or Tomoki until U.S. Nationals.
 
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century2009

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 15, 2018
Had Tom made this statement like let's say leading up to an ISU Congress (where they can actually bring forth proposals and such), then maybe folks could hash this out more.

Doing this now, no matter how much he congratulates the medalists and tries to neutralize the issue, come off as self-serving. I would have at least have waited a few weeks rather than the day after the competition. Just my two cents. Also it could totally backfire on him because the tech panel might be more inclined to not give him the benefit of the doubt.

Regarding my earlier statement --- I do think that the tech panel have gone to extremes with Vincent. He had ZERO URs at Junior Worlds 2017 FS and Worlds 2018 SP and just 1 at 2018 Olympics FS. Yes he gets a lot of URs and DGs in his other competitions, but I scratch my head and wonder why they were completely overlooked in these three segments.


ETA: To pivot and look ahead, this situation does make Vincent's status as U.S. No. 2 a bit murky for now. It could provide some movement for a hungry junior skater like Camden Pulkinen and Tomoki Hiwatashi or a comeback veteran like Jason Brown.

However, Vincent always seem to peak later in the season (see the last two seasons/Jr. Worlds/Olympics as reference) so I am reluctant to declare definitivelyor say it's definitely a no go. He could just as well snatch it back at Nationals, like he did last year.

Out of those currently competing, only Nathan has beaten Vincent in domestic/international competition (I don't know Ross Miner's status and Max Aaron, who, incidentally has beat Vincent, 3-1, in their face-to-face matchups last season, is retired). Jason Brown has yet to beat Vincent domestically and none of the junior skaters have beat Vincent either. Vincent will face Alexander Johnson at NHK Trophy, which means he won't see Jason, Camden or Tomoki until U.S. Nationals.

Although the tech panel was strict at this competition, the rule has changed this year for underrotation, so quarters are not allowed anymore. That is why it is more severe compared to his pervious competition.

Also his FS in Worlds 2018 has like 5 or 6 underrotations and downgrades.
 

1111bm

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
Where was his passion for correct UR calling two years ago?

Had Tom made this statement like let's say leading up to an ISU Congress (where they can actually bring forth proposals and such), then maybe folks could hash this out more.
Doing this now, no matter how much he congratulates the medalists and tries to neutralize the issue, come off as self-serving.

Absolutely agreed, makes him sound very hypocritical.
And complaining about this only now, when one of his students 'suffered', certainly doesn't give off the impression that he's invested in it for the greater good and more fairness in the sport.


...and the LP 3A<, which I thought was actually <<.

Absolutely. And there was at least one other UR on a triple too, that did not get called, so whichever way we look at it, at the end of the day his scores were deserved, even if the 4F was only borderline.
 

Metis

Shepherdess of the Teal Deer
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 14, 2018
Had Tom made this statement like let's say leading up to an ISU Congress (where they can actually bring forth proposals and such), then maybe folks could hash this out more.

Doing this now, no matter how much he congratulates the medalists and tries to neutralize the issue, come off as self-serving. I would have at least have waited a few weeks rather than the day after the competition. Just my two cents. Also it could totally backfire on him because the tech panel might be more inclined to not give him the benefit of the doubt.
I don’t see any upside for Zhou, and frankly it looks like even more messy drama. The state of US figure skating right now:
Tara and Johnny: achronicURersayswhat
Tom: what?
Tara and Johnny: Nelson ha-ha

And Zhou creates enough messy drama on his own. Is Tom even his primary coach? Regardless, I think the most worth saying publicly is some remarks about appreciating the support from Tara and Johnny but accepting the scores, and while there’s some disappointment, of course, said disappointment is only fuel to keep advancing, long-term plan, etc.

Regarding my earlier statement --- I do think that the tech panel have gone to extremes with Vincent. He had ZERO URs at Junior Worlds 2017 FS and Worlds 2018 SP and just 1 at 2018 Olympics FS. Yes he gets a lot of URs and DGs in his other competitions, but I scratch my head and wonder why they were completely overlooked in these three segments.
WC18 TP was noticeably lenient for the SP, though, so I don’t think that’s the example you want, as after Boyang was given a barely-justifiable call on the 4T (which was, at most, exactly on the quarter), it was immediately noted that Zhou and Chen had jumps that were visibly UR’ed without slo-mo that weren’t called. I think Zhou benefits from a lenient tech panel as much as everyone who makes mistakes does — that is to say, the more lenient the panel, the less likely he is to get a UR or DG. The WC18 example is admittedly weird, due to what happened with Boyang, which is why it blew up at all (had Boyang not been given that questionable call, I think the consensus would have been that the TP was irritatingly chicken about making calls). I treat TPs as a black box, as we have no insight into how or why they’re making the decisions they do, and it’s more of a happy accident when they get the calls right than the intended outcome.

But, again, there are two other factors that help carry explanatory weight in terms of Zhou’s carrot garden being in full bloom: (1) the disappearance of any benefit of the doubt (which he might have still had a shred of left at WC18) and (2) the tightening of the rules regarding URs this season, which makes URs that may not have been called last season due to being on the quarter no longer a matter of discretionary judgment.

Going back to Tom’s statement for a moment: I’m still deeply uncomfortable with it if for no other reason than it isn’t helping Zhou (whether he can be helped is a separate issue). He seemed legitimately surprised when he got his scores after the short, which he shouldn’t have been. One of his coaches needs to have the come to Jesus talk with him about “I know you UR, you know you UR, the tech panel knows you UR, and you need to be ready for the moment when your score is much lower than you want until you stop being a rabbit food depot of carrots.” Maybe that convo is happening behind the scenes, but I doubt it. Combined with Zhou’s propensity for headcasing... it’s not good.

And it’s also all completely unnecessary drama given how unlikely it was that Zhou would make the GPF. I’m sure Zhou’s team wanted him to finish higher, but even if he’d been on the podium, he was an extreme long shot for the finals. Skate America is by far the weakest of the GP events for the men, with the rest being shark pools, and there are at least five guys who are a lock for the final barring crazy wipeouts: Hanyu, Uno, Boyang, Chen, and very likely Kolyada (though Hanyu, Boyang, and Kolyada all meet for their first GP event). Junhwan Cha is someone who could easily make the final with a combination of two good showings and a little luck with regard to how everyone else places, and he’s not alone in that “could outright make the final or just be on the bubble for a bit” grouping. So in Zhou’s case, this is a lot of sound and fury about a GP event he was never going to win and a GPF he was extremely unlikely to ever qualify for (even as an alternate).


ETA: To pivot and look ahead, this situation does make Vincent's status as U.S. No. 2 a bit murky for now. It could provide some movement for a hungry junior skater like Camden Pulkinen and Tomoki Hiwatashi or a comeback veteran like Jason Brown.
I think Zhou is at real risk of losing his “guy who isn’t Chen” spot/guaranteed spot on the team, as consistency is not something he’s known for and the 4Lz‘s BV is no longer 13.6 points. And those points were everything: having two guys who had the 4Lz and the 4F in their arsenals meant the US had two skaters with astronomical BV programmes who simply needed to rotate and ideally not fall on those elements (and, if they had to fall, to at least rotate the jumps first). TES is extremely volatile, BVs ain’t what they used to be, and the raw BV just isn’t there if you fall on a rotated quad with those points having been whittled down as well as moved into GOE. It may not happen immediately, as if Zhou places third or fourth at US Nationals, he’ll still almost certainly make the team for Worlds, but looking forward... my internal Magic 8 Ball reads “OUTLOOK NOT SO GOOD.”

I can see Jason mounting a comeback, but like Zhou, he’s had issues consistently delivering results and I suspect USFS will hedge against selecting him in a close call situation unless he has a rock-solid season, as USFS seems to be hilariously slow at reacting to scoring changes and assessing who is more likely to score well versus who has the highest scoring potential with no errors. (Also, USFS sucks and tolerates abusers. Screw USFS.) Next year is when I expect blood. (Lots of blood.)

Right now, Krasnozhon is probably the biggest threat. But I don’t think the head-to-head results are the most determinative stat for USFS right now, given their institutional history of being slow to accept change. I actually have zero faith USFS fully understands the new scoring system, which is good for Zhou, as it means his 3.xF and Lutz are overvalued relative to a +5 triple. He also has the competition experience. There is a case for putting him on the Worlds team, assuming he doesn’t have a disaster skate at Nats, but his stock is going down. A continuation of what we’ve seen throughout the season and/or strong showings from skaters like Brown could easily cost him his spot this year.

And that makes Tom’s post even more mystifying, as Tom did not help Zhou’s narrative at all — he made the situation worse. It starts to reinforce the idea that Zhou has major flaws below the surface and, perhaps more importantly to USFS, the fact that he’s now had several major underpeformances. (WC18 LPs were a disaster all around, sure, but Zhou needs everyone to forget about his plummet from podium position to lowest placing US man.) That’s more lethal than any tech panel. Why send a known risk when you can send someone nobody is expecting too much from to build experience if Nats are less than ideal for Zhou? Add the whole team of coaches, the repeated blowups in terms of drama, and now this... that’s not the narrative you want. Especially when the narrative coming from one of Zhou’s coaches and the NBC talking points (which are USFS propaganda) are starkly diverging — “Zhou could rival Chen!” is not the story arc you want to be pushing when it doesn’t match reality, as casual fans are going to be confused as to why the experts aren’t reflecting what the scores say and eventually notice that they’re being solid a false bill of goods.
 

Colonel Green

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Country
Canada
I think Zhou is at real risk of losing his “guy who isn’t Chen” spot/guaranteed spot on the team, as consistency is not something he’s known for and the 4Lz‘s BV is no longer 13.6 points. And those points were everything: having two guys who had the 4Lz and the 4F in their arsenals meant the US had two skaters with astronomical BV programmes who simply needed to rotate and ideally not fall on those elements (and, if they had to fall, to at least rotate the jumps first). TES is extremely volatile, BVs ain’t what they used to be, and the raw BV just isn’t there if you fall on a rotated quad with those points having been whittled down as well as moved into GOE. It may not happen immediately, as if Zhou places third or fourth at US Nationals, he’ll still almost certainly make the team for Worlds, but looking forward... my internal Magic 8 Ball reads “OUTLOOK NOT SO GOOD.”

I can see Jason mounting a comeback, but like Zhou, he’s had issues consistently delivering results and I suspect USFS will hedge against selecting him in a close call situation unless he has a rock-solid season, as USFS seems to be hilariously slow at reacting to scoring changes and assessing who is more likely to score well versus who has the highest scoring potential with no errors. (Also, USFS sucks and tolerates abusers. Screw USFS.) Next year is when I expect blood. (Lots of blood.)

Right now, Krasnozhon is probably the biggest threat. But I don’t think the head-to-head results are the most determinative stat for USFS right now, given their institutional history of being slow to accept change. I actually have zero faith USFS fully understands the new scoring system, which is good for Zhou, as it means his 3.xF and Lutz are overvalued relative to a +5 triple. He also has the competition experience. There is a case for putting him on the Worlds team, assuming he doesn’t have a disaster skate at Nats, but his stock is going down. A continuation of what we’ve seen throughout the season and/or strong showings from skaters like Brown could easily cost him his spot this year.
The US has three men’s spots, so Zhou doesn’t need to be second, he just needs to be third. Next season might be more of an issue with all the junior men projected to move up, but right now he just needs to stay ahead of either Brown or Krasnozhon.
 

pearly

Record Breaker
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Sep 1, 2017
I am shocked when I read some of Tom Zakrajsek's social media posts because they can be so biased it's ridiculous. I can't imagine the thought process that results in an international/Olympic/World level coach posting some of those things.
 
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