2018 GP Helsinki: Thoughts, Analysis & Reviews | Page 4 | Golden Skate

2018 GP Helsinki: Thoughts, Analysis & Reviews

aless

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
The ice did look soft - you could see watery patches everywhere. I think it was warm in the arena - you could see more sweat than usual on the men's faces after they skated. I think it speaks volumes to Yuzu's champion heart that he skated so well and attempted (and more or less saved) the 4r in those conditions.

Thinking on Georgia's question, if you want to see an absolute specimen of Yuzu's perfection, see his 2017 Worlds FS. Beyond perfection.


I can tell you that it absolutely wasn't warm in the arena (I've been to multiple competitions so I would notice if it was noticeably warmer), however I heard the ice was just days old at the time of the event, so very fresh, which probably caused the issues

And I believe skaters are struggling more due to the shorter time of the free skate at lot, which might make then look more exhausted after
 

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
I think people should cut Alina some slack. I have noticed her posturr too this year, even as a fan I can clearly see it. It‘s pretty visible right now, I agree on that but honestly, we shouldn‘t forget that Alina grew 7 centimeters since the Olympics. Growing is normal for a 16 year old of course but we all know what it can do to a figure skater. So she is still in the middle of getting used to her new body. And the only thing she has troubles with is a not so perfect posture. That‘s actually pretty amazing. Her jumps are still all there. Helsinki was an unfortunate event for her, she was visibly nervous and her jumps tight and underrotated. In the competition at least! Every jump in practice was landed perfectly. She landed all her jumps at JO and Nebelhorn too. She hasn‘t lost them at all, it was just a bit difficult competition for her. She can and will easily work on her posture once she has figured out her new body. (Ik it‘s just 7 centimeters or so but for a figure skater it can be a lot) I don‘t deny she‘s overscored sometimes as she still gets high GOE and PCS even when she struggles but that‘s happening all the times in ladies. The judges know what she‘s capable of, she is the reigning Olympic Gold Medallist. One mediocre competition doesn‘t make a bad skater or a bad competitor. It‘s how you deal with it. Alina is a fighter and she has shown it more than once. She will work on her issues and sort them out later in the season, I‘m sure of that.

Whether we cut her some slack is really not the point. The point is the JUDGES are not being fair and ethical in their scoring of her PCS and GOEs *in comparison* to other skaters. She should not be getting a 9 in ss if a skater like Kaori is getting 8.5--more like a 6. And all those 9s for PE and IN for her awkward movement and sloppy skating throughout? Please. Even the British Eurosport commentators said something like “the judges seem to be mesmerized by her”, implying their bewilderment over her scores. If the judges are trying to tell us *this* is the standard for ladies skating today then it’s really not my sport anymore.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Whether we cut her some slack is really not the point. The point is the JUSGES are not being fair and ethical in their scoring her PCS and GOEs *in comparison* to other skaters. She should not be getting a 9.75 in ss if a skater like Satoko is getting 8.5, more like a 6. And all those 9s for PE and IN for her awkward and sloppy skating and movement? Please. I don’t even know how to take scores seriously anymore.

The PE and IN score are where I see poor judging. Just because Alina has tons of transitions and deserves a high score on that mark, doesn't mean she deserves the same high mark in PE and IN. It seems like the judges use transitions, and SS to a lesser extent, as a benchmark for PCS scoring, maybe because it's the easiest to justify--there are either transitions or there aren't. The Russian skaters seem to have caught on to this and load up their programs with transitions and do a lot of one-foot and multi-directional skating--also pretty easy to quantify for SS. Is there some reason I am not aware of that all of the PCS marks of a judge have to be within the same general range? Isn't it possible for a skater to get a 9 in TR and 7 in IN or PE?
 

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
The PE and IN score are where I see poor judging. Just because Alina has tons of transitions and deserves a high score on that mark, doesn't mean she deserves the same high mark in PE and IN. It seems like the judges use transitions, and SS to a lesser extent, as a benchmark for PCS scoring, maybe because it's the easiest to justify--there are either transitions or there aren't. The Russian skaters seem to have caught on to this and load up their programs with transitions and do a lot of one-foot and multi-directional skating--also pretty easy to quantify for SS. Is there some reason I am not aware of that all of the PCS marks of a judge have to be within the same general range? Isn't it possible for a skater to get a 9 in TR and 7 in IN or PE?
I still beg to defer on whether she deserves a 9 on TR. Sure there are transitions, but does the quality of transitions not matter one bit anymore? That moment where she grabs her leg high into a split then abruptly goes into a bend over position with both arms behind her back is one of the most poorly done moves I've seen in figure skating. Not just that, most of her "transitions" are meaningless, negate any kind of musical expression (because how the hell do you expression music if all you are doing is rushing from one move to the next because that's what gets you points???), are rushed or done with poor edge quality.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Oh dear, you just cant stop :dev2: You are ruining the purpose of these threads, which supposed to be in first place peoples reviews of the competitions in general. Not the same old complains about judges scores. We are having a lot of debates about judges scores but they are in the other threads. I'm pretty sure someone will try to answer on your questions there :biggrin:
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
I still beg to defer on whether she deserves a 9 on TR. Sure there are transitions, but does the quality of transitions not matter one bit anymore? That moment where she grabs her leg high into a split then abruptly goes into a bend over position with both arms behind her back is one of the most poorly done moves I've seen in figure skating. Not just that, most of her "transitions" are meaningless, negate any kind of musical expression (because how the hell do you expression music if all you are doing is rushing from one move to the next because that's what gets you points???), are rushed or done with poor edge quality.

I totally agree about the meaningless transitions. But that is what the IJS rewards. Alina’s team has figured out that perpetual motion gets big points. I dont like it but it is what it is.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Oh dear, you just cant stop :dev2: You are ruining the purpose of these threads, which supposed to be in first place peoples reviews of the competitions in general. Not the same old complains about judges scores. We are having a lot of debates about judges scores but they are in the other threads. I'm pretty sure someone will try to answer on your questions there :biggrin:

Alina was at this competition, wasn’t she?
 

withwings

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Oh dear, you just cant stop :dev2: You are ruining the purpose of these threads, which supposed to be in first place peoples reviews of the competitions in general. Not the same old complains about judges scores. We are having a lot of debates about judges scores but they are in the other threads. I'm pretty sure someone will try to answer on your questions there :biggrin:

No one is complaining.
Thread: 2018 GP Helsinki: Thoughts, Analysis & Reviews


And thanks to shine for his thoughts and analysis.
 

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Oh dear, you just cant stop :dev2: You are ruining the purpose of these threads, which supposed to be in first place peoples reviews of the competitions in general. Not the same old complains about judges scores. We are having a lot of debates about judges scores but they are in the other threads. I'm pretty sure someone will try to answer on your questions there :biggrin:

Oh, did Alina not participate in this event or what? The same old complaints will continue to be there as long as the judges continue to exercise the same old unethical judging. Why don't you tell them to stop?
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
My intention was not to tell anyone to stop complaining (or to stop any other kind of conversation), just to propose transfering those kind of thoughts in threads more appropriate for that. Cause i think it was those complains which make other people to turn of this thread and stop writing their 'other thoughts' (which were so great to read in previous threads similar to this one).
 

skateflake

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
Grand Prix Skating Predictions Game

I wrote up how I made my best ranking predictions so far and would like to share it. I'm not sure if this is the best thread for it but it does contain some analysis concerning Grand Prix Helsinki!

GRAND PRIX SKATING PREDICTIONS GAME - HOW TO MAKE A WINNING LIST

This is how I chose a gold medal prediction for the Men in the GP Helsinki 2018.

First, start with the list of men, handily provided (thank you CaroLiza_fan):

Men:

StN. Name Nation
Warm-Up Group 1
1 Phillip HARRIS GBR
2 Andrei LAZUKIN RUS
3 Alexei KRASNOZHON USA
4 Junhwan CHA KOR
5 Valtter VIRTANEN FIN
Warm-Up Group 2
6 Michal BREZINA CZE
7 Boyang JIN CHN
8 Keiji TANAKA JPN
9 Yuzuru HANYU JPN
10 Alexei BYCHENKO ISR
11 Mikhail KOLYADA RUS

Now, merely list the top 5 in the order they will place. Hmmm, Men are my favorite category of skaters, I have watched them for over a decade, and there are only 11 names for Finland. This should be easy!

Phillip Harris, Great Britain – Oh, yes, always take the country into consideration. Japan medals, Russia medals, GBR not so much. I do not think Harris will make it this time.

Andrei Lazukin, Russia – Wait, who? Forget what I said about watching the men and Russia medals, never heard of this guy. Not today.

Alexei Krasnozhon, USA – This must be that new American young skater, probably not enough experience. Maybe a good alternate. (I forgot to mention, choose a sixth skater, just in case.) (Based on country alone, though, it will be Lazukin (RUS) over Krasnozhon (USA).)

Junhwan Cha, South Korea – Now we are getting somewhere! Off to a great start this season, for some reason I was able to see him at both the Autumn Classic and Skate Canada, medaled twice. I think he WILL medal here, too. But Cha is so young, the judges will not want to go overboard, they will start him off slowly, so probably a bronze.

Valtter Virtanen, Finland – Local boy, might consider as hometown (country) advantage except I have seen him skate several times. (Dear Valtter, someone has to come in last, so sorry, but ER DOCTOR?! You have a career and one that makes good money, plus cute costumes, gets to live in Finland, who is the REAL winner here?!)

That is half the field and only one placement so far. Let us see the last six.

Michal Brezina, Czech Republic – Brezina, Brezina. Every year I am so happy you are still skating, but sometimes the jumps let us down. The skating skills just improve. Not from a big country, so no extra breaks. Still, Brezina was FABULOUS at Skate America. I will keep you in the mix.

Boyang Jin, China – Can be terrific, can terrifically FALL. Often does not do well early on, and this year no early Challenger events. Doubtful. (Has anyone even seen him in months?) I think I will put you last on my list, but still on my list since judges love quads and I love Boyang.

Keiji Tanaka, Japan – There is usually one skater that does not live up to his potential. The trick is to figure out who that will be. Sorry Tanaka, I am afraid it will be you today.

Yuzuru Hanyu, Japan – YUZURU! Who can beat him? Certainly no one here. After seeing him at the Autumn Classic, I think he will defy his “first GP curse”. (After seeing him in GP Helsinki, I think he must be part Snow Leopard!)

Alexei Bychenko, Israel – For some reason, there is always one skater that comes as a complete surprise to me during the SP. I mean, I totally forgot they would be there. How is that possible, with the Entry List in front of me?! Someone comes out on the ice, and I think “What is HE doing here? I thought he was going to be at NHK!” This time, it is Bychenko. It is not that I would not have considered him, I just missed his name somehow.

Mikhail Kolyada, Russia – Ok, final name. I have two medalists and I need a third. Still have Brezina under consideration. Did not see Kolyada skate this year, but he is from Russia. Kolyada / Brezina, Brezina / Kolyada. Which, oh which?!

I must admit I really like Brezina and think he may actually hold it together and get silver, but I am afraid I will jinx him if I put him second. So, I guess Kolyada it is. Did I mention he is from Russia? Sometimes a small country medals, to keep us all hopeful, but maybe Korea fills the small country slot. Well, I guess I have my list:

GP Helsinki 2018 MEN
1. Yuzuru Hanyu
2. Mikhail Kolyada
3. Junhwan Cha
4. Michal Brezina
5. Boyang Jin

Surprise, I win my first gold medal, for Men’s predictions! I chose first, third, and fifth place correctly, and mixed up second and fourth places (which was my plan all along), for a total of 55 points! And secretly, to me, I won even more because I did NOT bring bad luck to Brezina.
Now for simplicity, here is this process converted into a formula:

Easy Prediction Formula
1. Favorite
2. Jinx (Sorry!)
3. Splashy Newcomer
4. Secret Silver
5. Untested this season / Late Bloomer

6. Up and Coming or Local Favorite (the alternate)

7 – 11 (12) In some order:
Skater I never heard of
Skater who will not have his best day
Skater who I forgot would be here
Skater(s) who has consistently not done well in the past (This sounds too harsh, more like the skater who has not medaled in the past. I like many skaters who never medal!)

There you have it. Anyone can try this prediction method, it might work again! The brave of heart may switch second and fourth place.
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
Really? Watch again, it was all there. Probably just disguised by the tutus. And also none of her moves, and honestly none of her moves, is ever finished. I don’t really watch or care that much about ladies figure skating because of the hopeless state it is in, but her PCS and the margin she has over the other skaters these days is simply a disgrace to figure skating and I honestly don’t know why not more skaters/coaches/fans are mad about this kind of judging. It’s unfair and unethical.

Thank you for saying this. ITA. As I watched Helsinki ladies' competition, I was appalled with what I thought was blatantly crooked judging.

Even casual fans have eyes. I hate to see poorer skating skills, lack of artistry and obvious mistakes rewarded with stratospheric PCS and GOE scores.

If a skater plays the game smart, and structures her program to ratchet up points - good for her. But have some shame, people (judges)! Don't just GIFT points, for nothing.

Unfair judging is not just unethical. It equals CHEATING. It's unfair to the athletes, it's unfair to the fans, and it's lethal to the future of the sport.
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
And by the way, Alina's over-scoring problem was obvious last year, too. Same poor posture, same poor movements, same ol', same ol' - but previous flaws just became more glaringly obvious in the absence of colorful tutus, LOL.

I had such high hopes for the new scoring system... It's a shame it's just as badly misused.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
My intention was not to tell anyone to stop complaining (or to stop any other kind of conversation), just to propose transfering those kind of thoughts in threads more appropriate for that. Cause i think it was those complains which make other people to turn of this thread and stop writing their 'other thoughts' (which were so great to read in previous threads similar to this one).

I got what you meant and I couldn’t agree more. This is hardly the thread for scoring conspiracies. :shrug:
 

tokoyami

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 9, 2018
well....it does say analysis in the title of the thread. Sorry but if we can't discuss scoring abnormalities regarding skaters who were actually at this event here then im confused as to where else we're supposed to take this. If we make another thread just about "Alina Zagitova is being Overscored" that opens the door for many trolls and negative, toxic people to come in and just complain and whine and that thread will surely be closed before anyone will have the chance to say 'Evgenia Medvedeva'

If you don't like reading these things then just hang out in the fan fests. We're not being overly critical to Alina by discussing her overblown scores and if you think people are then the 'report' and 'ignore' button exists for a reason
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
I got what you meant and I couldn’t agree more. This is hardly the thread for scoring conspiracies. :shrug:

This is a proper thread for pointing out the obvious - this particular ladies' event disappointed, because of unfair judging.

If other (paid?) threads discussed the same points, good for them. I don't read those threads.

For me, this was my biggest impression from Helsinki that made me come here and post: mens' event = a joy to watch; but ladies' event = shameful judging. :shrug:
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
well....it does say analysis in the title of the thread. Sorry but if we can't discuss scoring abnormalities regarding skaters who were actually at this event here then im confused as to where else we're supposed to take this. If we make another thread just about "Alina Zagitova is being Overscored" that opens the door for many trolls and negative, toxic people to come in and just complain and whine and that thread will surely be closed before anyone will have the chance to say 'Evgenia Medvedeva'

If you don't like reading these things then just hang out in the fan fests. We're not being overly critical to Alina by discussing her overblown scores and if you think people are then the 'report' and 'ignore' button exists for a reason

True. What's the point of discussing competition, if you can't comment on judging abnormalities and individual skater's performance?

(As for general discussion, it would be refreshing to read a thread "Russians are being over-scored" (and some others, too, btw, though none as systemic) - because as a child I honestly admired that young boy for calling out his king on being naked... :laugh:

But I'm Russian born, and I know exactly where such a conversation would end, and why. Don Quixote is not my hero, I prefer to be practical. :shrug: )
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
Okay, last thing before I go - I'm ecstatic about Michal Brezina! I enjoyed his performances in the Olympics, and it's just awesome that instead of retiring he topped his game at Skate America and now this. Yes!!!

So much talent in men's skating. Some old, some new... Very exciting!
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
This is a proper thread for pointing out the obvious - this particular ladies' event disappointed, because of unfair judging.

If other (paid?) threads discussed the same points, good for them. I don't read those threads.

For me, this was my biggest impression from Helsinki that made me come here and post: mens' event = a joy to watch; but ladies' event = shameful judging. :shrug:

Gotcha...it seemed as though some of the posts were ranting about judging in general and ISU rules as opposed to specifics of this event. Maybe I misread something.
 

Seruleane

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
There is nothing wrong with criticizing the judging or scoring of skaters or events, but what I find disturbing is how so many of them often seem to become personal attacks on the skaters who that particular poster (or posters) actively dislikes. When you look at who is doing the criticizing, you will find a subset of posters who frequently hate only on Alina, other posters who love to hate on Satoko (just look at the NHK thread) and of course those who hate on Zhenya. These posters also seem unable to find any merits in the skaters they are criticizing. That’s why it’s hard for me to take their “criticisms” seriously.
 
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