2018-19 U.S. Ladies' figure skating
- Thread starter Spirals for Miles
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- Feb 25, 2014
I don't disagree with that at all. I just think a larger reframe of what options are on the table in the culture of this sport could be a lot different so that others can make that choice without shame or fear of rejection or, dare I say, take the time that's necessary to pace out a return in a sustainable way. Making the choice available and respected actually opens up more options along the spectrum so that a return doesn't have to be 0% vs. 100%. That choice should also be allowed to be brave.
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There was nothing "plateau-like" about Mirai's career. More like a series of mountain ranges. She has three major-international medals, four GP medals, and an Olympic gold that we all know she darned well helped earn (by placing over Kostner & Daleman). "Outstanding" is in the eye of the beholder.
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- Dec 28, 2013
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Yes, I think it was after his FS at regionals that he remarked it was his worst performance ever. Nobody said it was, he himself put it that way. I don't think he was just referring to his scores. He said something like he wasn't fit enough to do the 4-minute FS, and that it had taken far longer than he expected to get his fitness back.
I'm only referring to Takahashi in that his comeback process makes a lot more sense than Gracie's. Even someone who has achieved as much as Takahashi felt nervous and unfit in his early competitions. Gracie has always had a problem with nerves (it seems) and it would have made a lot more sense to start small and build up slowly and methodically instead of making the GP her first comeback competition just because she had the comeback skater option.
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Bronze??
It's true. Mirai never plateaued. She had a series of ups and downs punctuated with some impressive successes. She's a national Champ, with 2 silver, 2 bronze and 2 pewter medals over a 10 year period. Meaning she's only been officially off the podium 4 out of 11 seasons. She has three 4CC medals. And she is the 8th woman to land a triple axel. The first American to land it at the Olympics.
What's most impressive to me is how between 2014 and 2018, she included her 3S a 3F+3T and a 3A all in her twenties.
Mirai has had a very long and quite successful career in spite of not having a world medal.
BTW, that was a bronze. But I'm sure to Mirai it feels like a gold medal after what she had to do to get it.
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- Jan 17, 2014
Ok perhaps it didn’t come across quite as clear as I thought. I meant that Gracie came along with all the talents and was obviously good enough to be the next star. As you said, the lack of competitive nerves ultimately did her in, although I am still cautiously hopeful she can resurrect things. Just a big but on that after Rostelecom Cup ;(
Get the point about Mirai. She worked hard but I just don’t think she has the goods or the star quality or the solidity of say a Satoko or Ashley to be the dependable US number 1. And after all these years, like Ashley, her basic SS is still sadly mediocre. I guess someone like Kwan with the sophisticatied footwork and edge control and competitive spirit is simply exceptional.
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- Mar 23, 2014
It's tough to compare Kwan with the US ladies of the IJS era. If she had to do 3-3s and difficult transitions and IJS spins and footwork to compete, her legacy might be very different. Overall, I think the issue with the Ashley, Mirai, Caroline generation of US ladies was they were all initially trained under the 6.0 system and had weaknesses that IJS punished. That doesn't excuse the fact that in 2018 the US ladies are still struggling when basically anyone under age 22 should have been trained under IJS only. But I do think it explains the struggles of that generation of skaters.
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In no way diminishing Gracie's situation or trying to present myself as a mental health expert, but I think common sense comes into play.
If something is causing you deep pain and disrupting your life, perhaps it's time to walk away from it.
I don't know the specifics of Gracie's diagnosis, but she did not look happy in Russia. If skating is causing her this much anxiety, I don't see anything "brave" or "noble" about continuing.
Life is not an old ABC "Up Close and Personal" fluff piece about perseverance.
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- Oct 27, 2005
I went back and watched Gracie's Rostelcom SP again - I know, I'm a masochist - but my reaction was a little different on the second viewing. She did look unhappy, and not in fighting form, but still I found myself wondering if the reaction would have been different if her jumps had been just a little further along - if she had attempted a triple-double combination, even if she had fallen, and if she had landed the double axel rather than popped. I feel like her skating skills are there and pretty solid, the program is a pretty good program if she performs it, and the energy was not bad until the missed elements really started to detract. If she had landed the double axel, I think it would have made a big difference in the perception of the program - and having the double axel in pocket might be realistic by Nationals. The jump combination was low - I don't know if she can get a triple at the moment - but if she keeps training and improving by increments, a little more improvement might make a big difference. My overall impression on a second viewing is that we shouldn't be writing Gracie off quite yet. The skating is still there. She probably won't be ready to make the top 10 at Nationals, but if she trains hard over the next 6 weeks and improves by even a few degrees, I think she can make a respectable showing. The big question is whether or not this is the right thing for her and she really wants it.
The thing is, if Gold is still extremely emotional fragile and in the middle of a very rocky path to recovery, is it in her best interest to launch a comeback right now? Competitions won't get any easier and the scrutiny will only intensify. I also don't think Gold is the best person to make the ultimate decision in this matter, given that she may not be acting as a rational agent.
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- Mar 23, 2014
But she's a grown woman and the most anyone close to her can do is give her advice and support.
She has done the most important thing of recognizing that she needs treatment for mental illness and getting that treatment. That's the hardest thing to do and she's done it.
No one else has the right to make decisions for Gracie other than Gracie.
People suffering from anxiety and depression are perfectly capable of making their own decisions. They might not be the right decisions 100% of the time, but mentally healthy people make mistakes too.
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- Oct 27, 2005
Yes, honestly how can anybody know? She is still young enough that a year or two seems like a long time to her, and maybe she's in the mindset of a young person that it's now or never, and she has to achieve whatever goal by such and such an age or all is lost - rather than an older person's perspective that we all get where we are going in our own time. Early adulthood is such a scary and harrowing time figuring out your place in the world, even without a public persona and mental health challenges. Young people always feel like they are running out of time, which seems sad to us older people who want to see them enjoy and explore their youth and all of the possibilities ahead of them. I'm not sure Gracie has had the freedom to explore the world outside of skating - it seems like she went from training - to treatment - to coaching - and back to training. If I were her mom - and I'm not, so I'm sure there's a lot I don't know - but I might want to see her attend college or a vocational program, broaden her horizons, and skate on the side, for her own enjoyment, and keep a foot in it through coaching and shows so that coming back through regionals would remain an option. Treat it like a job skill and take a workmanlike approach to it, rather than a frame for her self worth. Again, I don't know, but the all or nothing approach might not be the healthiest thing. I hope she is getting good mental health treatment and doesn't consider it behind her.
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- Feb 24, 2012
Gracie is such a famous and popular skater and hence the discusson about her all over the place. There are lots of "armchair" coaching and theories everything from wrong coaches, wrong strategies, she is unhappy with skating,she feelsshe ahs something to prove,money issues,family issues, Again,I ask what truly is best for Gracie? Does she really have to skate to be a complete person? Who says she has to go to Nationals. I like some of the observations for the Skating Lessons who suggested as much as fans and their bias love Gracie m ironically all the so called encouragement things will be fine and she will be ready for Nationals is not helpful and may be setting her up for another disaster and nonlife building experience. I think Dave and Jonathon from the TSL aren't saying she won't every be competitive but give her proper time and not so unrealistic goals. Her fans andthere are many often aren't really look at her best interest they have an idealistic view or just arent' think - encourage her but be realistic. You can tell the love for Gracie and soi t should be is amazing. Peopleare saying or some that her poor sp was just a fluke a bout of nerves. They say she was landing all the triples. Well sort of true. First, in the practices at Russia she wasn't doing many jumps individually or during her run throughts lots of marking. She was having trouble with the triple jumps and while she landed some of them it was like 1/7 so not great for a competitoin as that was practice. There has been a lot of trying to blame her coaches,herself, the US Fed but regardless to try to develop this talent in Gracie she is a human with feelings and human frailties. She is not a robot. She may have not be ready physically or mentally but it doesnt' mean inthe futureshe won't be back at the top. Give her time. Two months to Nats is not a lot. The suggestion she will have her double axel back and can compete with that is well ridiculous. in 1988 a double axelwas not enough to be in the top ten at worlds. Give her time.I think we also need to realize we don't know the whole story about why she is with REstencourt or her financial/sponsorship/family situation which may be adding to the "pressure" on her.
But more important before peoplepush her to compete - Gracie needs to find who she i s and whether elite competitives skatng is for h er not what people expect or hope.
She honestly did not seem enthused at Russia. It might be hard to imagine life without skating but once you get started at gonig on to your next capter life has somuchmore to offer if that is the route you choose.
Gracie has two major advantages. 1 herself - she is a strong,talented lady 2. her fans - good or bad with their suggestons they / we love her. Whether Gracie Gold is part of the US ladies future is up to her.
But more important before peoplepush her to compete - Gracie needs to find who she i s and whether elite competitives skatng is for h er not what people expect or hope.
She honestly did not seem enthused at Russia. It might be hard to imagine life without skating but once you get started at gonig on to your next capter life has somuchmore to offer if that is the route you choose.
Gracie has two major advantages. 1 herself - she is a strong,talented lady 2. her fans - good or bad with their suggestons they / we love her. Whether Gracie Gold is part of the US ladies future is up to her.
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- Jan 6, 2018
Seriously, the hardest part will be to train to get into competitive shape without being too hard on her body, resorting to overtraining/starving. And to train enough, but not let it get away her treatment.
Some people were very nasty about her on internet, calling her obese, etc.
I don't want to speculate and I wish her the best. It may just be very hard for her if you wants to compete (at the same time, she may have great regrets if her career ends like this and not on her own note).
Is it? Hardest part might be actual competition. She has always struggled with competitive nerves, and it'll only get worse once she returns.
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- Feb 17, 2010
It's hard to read much into whether a skater is happy based on how they look in a competitive program because they are very nervous. Gracie is especially prone to nerves, and the only time I've seen her look relaxed in a SP or LP is when she's successfully completed her jumps.
However serious she wants to take the sport, she just needs to compete at a level that reflects her form. If she is really looking to rebuild her confidence through skating, participating in events where she finishes dead last by a comfortable margin probably isn't going to help.
However serious she wants to take the sport, she just needs to compete at a level that reflects her form. If she is really looking to rebuild her confidence through skating, participating in events where she finishes dead last by a comfortable margin probably isn't going to help.
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- Feb 17, 2010
This. Gracie is a 23 year old woman. She is an adult and she probably wants to have a life outside her treatment plan. Sometimes you have to put yourself in uncomfortable situations and suffer a setback to move forward. She recognized that her comeback will be more challenging that she expected after the SP, so I think she can better evaluate whether she wants to put in the work to become a top tier athlete or move on to other endeavors.
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- Oct 27, 2005
I like your comments, Skater Boy, just want to clarify, since I was the person who said that if she had landed her double axel at Rostelcom, the overall impression of the performance would have been different/better, and what I meant to say is that if she can land it at Nationals it will be a sign she is on her way back. Obviously she is not going to be in the top 10 at Nationals with a double axel and a couple of random triples. You need a full suite of triples to be in the mix. But when I went back and watched her program again a couple of days later without the burden of all of those expectations, it didn't seem as bad as it did initially. I was able to see the quality of her skating and performance much more than I had the first time. I think making it back to some level of competitiveness over time could be within her reach if she wants it badly enough, and agree with you that it's in her hands and hope she can tune out any external pressures and go after what she truly want.s
I'm not sure that training under 6.0 was the the problem. Kwan was a 6.0 skater from start to finish and had excellent skating skills and good jumping technique. And the poster girl for skating skills, Carolina Kostner, also trained initially under 6.0. I also think Mirai's skating skills are under-rated. She has good speed and fulfills many of the IJS check boxes. She is certainly well above someone like Caroline Zhang. The current powerhouses in ladies skating, Russia and Japan, for many years had no medal contenders in ladies. Russia/USSR didn't have a ladies World Champion until 1999. For the longest time, Japan's only superstar was Midori Ito. Sport dominance is cyclical. Eventually, I think the US will have a dominant skater again. Look what happened with the US men, after struggling with no real contender since 2010.
