Does mens?
Trusova and Quads
- Thread starter russianfan
- Start date
Does mens?
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2015
If Trusova doesn't have quads, the junior world champion from Sofia last season would have been Kostornaya and this years junior Russian champion again would have been Kostornaya and senior as well if Scherbakova did not land the quad Lutz. I guess some girls are better jumpers and this is their chance to win.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2017
Why not 17 or 16? 17 Years, 6 months, 90 days? Why is 18 the magic number? What's the guarantee that someone won't instead, at 18, say "oh, that's great, but now let's see if she can do it at 19, though."?
This is definitely a debate to be focusing on still. Men are considered better at jumping in general. Technical developments in jumping are great, but what about harder spins or spirals, things that men simply can't do to the same quality (at least for the most part)? There have been very few women who have jumped to the same quality/better than men, just as there have been very few men who have spun/spiraled to the same quality as women. Why push technical quality in only one of those directions across both fields?
18y is a tricky age. Many countries prohibit to sell alcohol drinks to <18 "minors". Some even raise the bar till 21y.
But military usually gives you a good old machine gun exactly at 18y.
Some FS feds promote the more strict age limits. Mostly because their skaters reach the top shape at higher ages. Others prefer to keep as is (if not dropping lower) if their skaters do quads in pre-school.
Talking like "Do we need girls with quads?" should be understood like "We do need our girls with quads but you are free to keep 3T-2T combos".
But military usually gives you a good old machine gun exactly at 18y.
Some FS feds promote the more strict age limits. Mostly because their skaters reach the top shape at higher ages. Others prefer to keep as is (if not dropping lower) if their skaters do quads in pre-school.
Talking like "Do we need girls with quads?" should be understood like "We do need our girls with quads but you are free to keep 3T-2T combos".
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2017
If Tursynbayeva did quad will it impress you? I guess not. So I think the impressiveness is not at the age but the quality and athletic ability (height, distance). It's like saying I'm not impressed by a 2m basketball player's dunk I want to see a 1.60 player to dunk.
The problem with quads and age generally, in my opinion, is they way the BV assigned. Which is based on the rotation, which again is strongly correlated to you body type. I would like to see in the future when a reliable technology will be available the BV of a jump to be related to a combination of height, distance and rotation.
When the number of revolution is low my impression (I don't know the numbers) is that the number of rotations is linearly dependent on the height of your jump but starting from triples to quads that linearity is breaking and body type (rotation) start's to play the significant part.
For example I will give a bigger base value to Kolyada's 3Luz than to Samsonov's 4Lutz. In that way you can "force" more mature body types (older skaters) to go for height and distance. And always people (at least from our experience from other sports) jump better when they are in their 20's rather 14-15.
Why do you think that it wouldn't impress me, if Tursynbaeva would do a quad in competition? That would impress me, I assure you. I don't see it, that's why it would impress me even more. I like that skaters can do well even if they are tall in figure skating, that you don't need a certain height to be competitive, so basketball isn't the best comparison imo.
18 was in reference to mooncat's post. I would say post puberty.
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2017
Then, I don't see why the age is such a big of a factor? If some girl or boy can jump for example at their fifteen a quad with 80cm height and a 20 year old a quad with 60cm then I will consider the former more impressive. But, OK everyone looking for different things...
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2014
Are men and ladies equal biologicaly, physiologicaly etc?. Why for example in gymnastics men and ladies do different apparatuses and as I remember never and nonbody argued why ladies can't do pommel horse and men - uneven bars? We were created different by mother nature...
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2014
That's it! Why girls try to be and skate like men and not develop for example spins? For me there's a rom for developing in spins... Don't thing that ladies now reached the level of Lucinda Ruh in spins for example...
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2014
That's why triple throw by Cain - LeDuc impresses me more than some quad from other pair...
Well, I always see the jump and the athlete at the same time. There's not one without the other. A girl looks like a girl, not like a woman. Athletic girls seem to have enedless energy, stamina and are able to rotate very fast. Women really have to rely on good technique, because they don't have those advantages.
But I also like to watch girls skate, that's not the point. I'm just not that impressed, when they do those difficult jump, because it's simply easier for them.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2017
But we can say "men are usually better at jumping, so jumps are not that impressive for them". What's stopping us?
I'm not stopping you.
A woman doing a good clean 3Lz-3T is certainly more impressive imo than a man doing the same combo.
I want to add that boys don't have the advantage over men, that girls have over women. Testosterone is a mighty hormone, men do jump easier than boys.
But girls are impressive athletically. They often do better than boys at the same age, in the same sport. And after puberty it's all gone ... seems unfair, but it's biology so we have to accept it.
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2017
I already said my opinion on the rotation and how I would like the BV to be calculated. But, in my example with a 80cm vs 60cm, I don't think the 80cm quad jump is easier because you are younger. Not it's not easy. That requires a lot of talent. You are discarding the possibility someone to be good in young age.
You look also to correlate athletic to being slim. Athletic girls for me are for example Tyktamecheva, Wakaba, Tomoe but also skaters like Trusova, Tarakanova... It's about the actual ability to do something "big", rather than the body type.
we see with the men that a large number of them do quads with technique that isn't perfect. if it was easier for little girls to do quads then all of them should be landing quads consistently in competition, instead we only have 2 (maybe even just sasha since anna has been kinda inconsistent).
technique might help them keep quads and it might not, there have been ladies with perfect jumps that lose them and ladies with "bad" technique who are still competitive for a long time. keeping quads is hard but from watching the men it seems like there isn't too much of a connection with technique and quads. obviously the technique cant be abysmal but neither sasha or anna have horrible technique
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2014
By the way - let's make difference between quads and "quads" PR'ed or UR'ed that tech pannels count as clean.... For me if you tend to jump quad - you must jump quad and not over-rotated triple with PR 0.5 revs or more. And tech pannels must call the latter as triple and not as quad...
I don't understand what you mean. I didn't write that it's easier for girls to do quads than for men ... I wrote that it's easier for girls than it is for women. That's a major difference. And, right now, we don't have a single women who does even one quad in competition.
I didn't say that it was easy. I'm quite certain that it isn't. And I don't discard the fact that those girls are very good. But we'll only know that they are really great, if they're still able to do all those jumps in 2-3 years. Let's wait and see.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2014
Thanks god that the task of skaters and their coaches is to impress judges rather than some random fans. Next year if Sasha successfully adds 3A and Rika adds a 4S we shall see the competition of the titans that this sport has never seen before. This excites me, this will impress me rather than some "artistic" programs from the past.
