Female Russian skate stars rise fast, but burn out too soon

el henry said:

Yes, American media advocates for limits on the age of young athletes.

Yes, American media advocates for such limits even when American athletes are impacted.

Yes, they did so in 1998.

Michael Wilbon saying the age for skating should be increased to 17, the year that Tara Lipinski win OGM

(It's parenthetical, but it's there. And is "Pardon the Interruption" still on ESPN or some other channel somewhere? and unfortunately the line about Tiger Woods handling fame with grace was not entirely prescient.....)

For me, it matters less if the reasons for concern are the pitfalls of fame and fortune, the over sexualization of young girls, or the injuries incurred by young athletes. There is concern. It is not limited to one country, one gender or one anything.

Anyone can and should feel free to disagree that the concern is warranted. I would just like the happy hoo-hah that the concern results from bias, jealousy, and the million outraged "whataboutism"s to stop.

But who am I kidding?

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Yes PTI is still on BSpn. Michael Wilbon loves Christine Brennan so no surprise he thinks like her. Funny t hing is he wanted the age limit to go to 17 21 years ago because his girl 17 year old Kwan was upset by 15 year old Lipinski.

You are right Henry its many countries that have young figure skaters wih issues. Not just one country.

el henry said:

Yes, American media advocates for limits on the age of young athletes.

Yes, American media advocates for such limits even when American athletes are impacted.

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Not every media. After Liu's victory pro-junior articles began appear as well:
https://deadspin.com/does-figure-skating-really-need-age-minimums-1832204461
:agree:

Scott512 said:

Funny thing is he wanted the age limit to go to 17 21 years ago because his girl 17 year old Kwan was upset by 15 year old Lipinski.

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Well, this article actually compliments both Kwan and Lipinski for not being bad examples of "too much, too soon." The authors main target is self-absorbed basketball players who think they are hot stuff because they are paid millions of dollars to play a child's game. (That and to lament what a mess Dominique Moceanu turned out to be.)

To me, the current discussion is quite a bit different. Nobody is saying that Eteri Tutberidze or the expectations of Russian sports media is turning out spoiled brats that act like two-year-olds and are unable to cope with life, or who collapse under the pressure and end up psychological basket cases. The question is rather, whether the particular training and jump techniques that are successful for 14-year-old quadsters will prove a handicap later on -- or not.

My recollection about coverage of Tara Lipinski was that almost everyone in the U.S. skating world was fine with having a child star in the mix (even though Michelle Kwan was more popular -- the scenario was that Michelle would win in 1998 and then Tara in 2002. USA! USA!).

https://peopledotcom.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/2_23_98_750x1000.jpg

It wasn't until the extent of Tara's chronic hip condition was revealed, and she was forced to retire, that the issue was raised that "maybe it is not so good for growing children to practice triple loop / triple loop combinations with endless repetitions." Then a little later there was speculation that Tara was sad on the Stars on Ice tour because she didn't have anyone her own age to be friends with, in a cast of professional skaters old enough to be her parents.

(That is how I remember the U.S. media coverage in those days, anyway.)

Elucidus said:

Not every media. After Liu's victory pro-junior articles began appear as well:
https://deadspin.com/does-figure-skating-really-need-age-minimums-1832204461
:agree:

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While articles of this nature give a platform for discussion, I think it's important for folks to remember that not all the free-lance bloggers, writers, and/or journalists (regardless of their nationality) are knowledgeable in the sport of figure skating - or any other sport for that matter. They see a story, do some quick surface research, and then run with it. Especially if it's a story of someone who makes history or is elevated to celebrity status in some way.

@Scott512, thank you for the info on "PTI". We cut the cord some years ago, and I have not seen it in some years. I'm just impressed that Wilbon cared about figure skating back in the day.

And I have no doubt that Americans have all sorts of opinions, and all different reasons for those opinions. That's as it should be As I said when I gave the link (from 20 years ago, wowza:eeking the reference was parenthentical.

It's just that the "whataboutism" is a red herring that I would like to throw back in the sea. I do not hold my opinion on limiting young skaters' activities because I am American, or because I am terrified of the Russian ladies. I do not change my opinion when it affects Americans, or men, or the man in the moon.

And my mission in life will be to call out the "whataboutisms" whenever I see them

el henry said:

@Scott512, thank you for the info on "PTI". We cut the cord some years ago, and I have not seen it in some years. I'm just impressed that Wilbon cared about figure skating back in the day.

And I have no doubt that Americans have all sorts of opinions, and all different reasons for those opinions. That's as it should be As I said when I gave the link (from 20 years ago, wowza:eeking the reference was parenthentical.

It's just that the "whataboutism" is a red herring that I would like to throw back in the sea. I do not hold my opinion on limiting young skaters' activities because I am American, or because I am terrified of the Russian ladies. I do not change my opinion when it affects Americans, or men, or the man in the moon.

And my mission in life will be to call out the "whataboutisms" whenever I see them

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Youre welcome.

I also do not change opinions based on country.

gsk8 said:

While articles of this nature give a platform for discussion, I think it's important for folks to remember that not all the free-lance bloggers, writers, and/or journalists (regardless of their nationality) are knowledgeable in the sport of figure skating...

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This author, though, is well respected as a gymnastics journalist. She was a former gymnast herself and has written books and many articles about the sport. (Figure skating, not so much.)

By the way, I found the comments to this article quite well measured. (No doubt only selected comments were published. ) My favorite began

The arguments for changing age minimums—short careers, injury, burnout—invite the question: What makes for a good skating career?

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Thank you, thank you, unidentified commenter, for not misusing the phrase "beg the question" -- my pet peeve.

andromache said:

Is this actually the case in gymnastics? I don't follow gymnastics, but I am aware of Simone Biles and Aly Raisman having fairly lengthy and successful careers well after puberty.

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I think here was rythmic gymnastic meant. A sport where russians are also leading using a similar system as in figure skating. There is an RT Documentary on YouTube called "The winner takes it all"
You can definitely see similarities between skating and gymnastics

Welcome Isaskates20, and thanks for joiniing in. Post often, post long!

Well, given that Eteri's camp hasn't yet produced a skater with a longevity of Kostner's senior career, she must be stopped! :sarcasm:

Joking aside, injuries are serious but it's a sport - if you perform it at the highest level, the tricks are harder and riskier. But it's important to make it a calculated risk. Like identifying to not have skaters try quads when they're feeling fatigued or having an off day. If you want to reach the pinnacle of the sport, you need greater difficulty. Otherwise we should just cap it off that everyone does double jumps for safety and PCS wins on the day so skaters can have nice, long careers.

And to the NBC sports criticism, Eteri can easily shade them back: "Maybe my skaters burn out faster, but the US has 1 ladies World/individual Olympic medal in the past 12 years - so how's that for longevity?"

Casual said:

I don't think anything will change unless parents revolt.

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I went specifically asking, and all people I know would not want their kids to be in an elite sport past 18-20.
1. 18-20 is still a moment when you can easily pick up another career. Study, work, whatever you want. Its very hard to start from blank when you are 30+ and not everybody wants to be a coach, and not everybody is suited to be a coach.
2. Injuries are a cumulative thing, and things heal better while you are young. All those torn ligaments, stress fractures and so on, how this will work when the skater is 40+? The past generations of skaters competed less, and didn't perform such hard routines. Now the strain is bigger, and we do not know yet what will happen with thos kids in their 40s. Well, we can actually have a glimpse. For instance, my mom is doing physical therapy her arthrosis, and she met there a whole generation of "gym ladies" - women in their 40s early 50s who messed up their bodies by simply going to gym daily (for instance, they say now that doing squats with weights is very bad for your knees, say hi to arthrosis and restricted mobility when you are 50). If you are not convinced, look at Plushenko and his current health issues. It will only get worse with time, you know. Also, please do not talk about good technique. Everybody gets injured. Hanyu gets injured every year. Other japanese skaters get injured too. American and Canadian skaters also get injured.
3. Psychological damage. Sport is not healthy also psychologically. I wouldnt want my kid or any kid to join Gracie and Gabi when growing up. Gracie had a breakdown at 22, Gabi, at 20. Maybe its better to just not hang around for that long to minimize damage.

I am honestly sad when people come and egoistically complain that their favourite skaters do not skate for long. That those skaters do not skate into their 30s for multiple olympic cycles when the sport was about competing 2 times a year and doing doubles now that the sport is about being in competitive form since october to march (grand prix, GPF, Nationals, Euros/4CC, Worlds, and yep you got to skate well at ALL those, because Russia got like 10+ top ladies eager to replace you). Skating on top level is not healthy, both short and long term. I do not want skaters I like to cripple themselves.

moriel said:

3. Psychological damage. Sport is not healthy also psychologically. I wouldnt want my kid or any kid to join Gracie and Gabi when growing up. Gracie had a breakdown at 22, Gabi, at 20. Maybe its better to just not hang around for that long to minimize damage.

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Yulia retired while suffering from an eating disorder that she said she had struggled with for years, since she was a young teenager at least. Mental illness can hurt people of all ages, and children are especially vulnerable.

If an elite sport is only "healthy" for kids and "bad" for adults, then it shouldn't be an Olympic sport - it can be a school sport or stay in the Youth Olympics.

Skating on top level is not healthy, both short and long term.

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In that case, don't allow children to do it. Why would we push kids to do something not healthy? At least adults have some life experience and the legal ability to make their own decisions.

andromache said:

If an elite sport is only "healthy" for kids and "bad" for adults, then it shouldn't be an Olympic sport - it can be a school sport or stay in the Youth Olympics.

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At no point I said that it was healthy for kids. But obviously, it is less unhealthy if the person is exposed to it for a shorter timespan.

andromache said:

In that case, don't allow children to do it. Why would we push kids to do something not healthy? At least adults have some life experience and the legal ability to make their own decisions.

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That is not how it works. Lets see:
1. If by saying "not allow it" you mean forbid kids entirely from training on top level, it will be effectively a prohibition of the sport entirely, because a huge bunch of it MUST be trained at younger age. If you only jump singles and doubles until you are 18 and train maximum 1 hour a day, and do no compete at all, you will not turn into elite athlete jumping quads. I agree that this is a great thing, elite sport damages people and I would not be upset if it is gone entirely.
2. If by saying "not allow it" you mean forbid kids from participating in elite competitions until they become legal adults, you are very naive. They will either quit (because FS is expensive and there are no results), train as hard and as competitively as they already do to make the national team (because FS is expensive) and to win junior competitions. They will still suffer immense pressure. They will still get injured. We will just know less about it, and they will get less money and less support. If anything, it will get worse.

moriel said:

At no point I said that it was healthy for kids. But obviously, it is less unhealthy if the person is exposed to it for a shorter timespan.




That is not how it works. Lets see:
1. If by saying "not allow it" you mean forbid kids entirely from training on top level, it will be effectively a prohibition of the sport entirely, because a huge bunch of it MUST be trained at younger age. If you only jump singles and doubles until you are 18 and train maximum 1 hour a day, and do no compete at all, you will not turn into elite athlete jumping quads. I agree that this is a great thing, elite sport damages people and I would not be upset if it is gone entirely.
2. If by saying "not allow it" you mean forbid kids from participating in elite competitions until they become legal adults, you are very naive. They will either quit (because FS is expensive and there are no results), train as hard and as competitively as they already do to make the national team (because FS is expensive) and to win junior competitions. They will still suffer immense pressure. They will still get injured. We will just know less about it, and they will get less money and less support. If anything, it will get worse.

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I say that that children should not be entered in adult competitions.

If they were not entered, and their coaches or parents still pressure them for results, then shame on those coaches and parents. If they were not entered in adult competitions, and their coaches and parents did not do everything in their power to prevent them from excessive training, then shame on those coaches and parents.

Figure skating can still be an elite sport without training quads hours a day at age 13. Since when is that [ETA: training jumps such as quads]the only definition of elite sport? it is not. Therefore, restrictions on training *and* elite sport can co-exist. All is good:agree:

And I am far from naive

Casual said:

I agree with his definition of the current problem as "the “Kleenex syndrome” of female skating – you take one, use it, and then throw it".

In Russia there used to be a saying about expendability of soldiers during a war - "бабы новых нарожают" ("women will birth plenty more of new ones" (to replace the ones being killed)).

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I’m literally never heard in Russia anybody saying stuff like that about soldiers. In fact, one of most famous war songs sung on Victory Day (9 May) has words “This is happiness with tears in eyes”. Even that victory is a tragedy because of the price paid. Soviet Union had a biggest human life loss in WW2, and I don’t think anyone other than someone borderline evil would say things like that.

Sorry for being off topic.

guys, it just simple as that: Russia's single ladies field is deep! Same as American WAG (gymnastics). Injury-comebacks, early burnouts, injury-career-endings, quick generation change and etc. All that jazz. Their ladies are just strong and ahead of time a bit. However Japanese ladies are rapidly closing the gap. I highly respect Japanese culture for their work ethics and ability to quickly come up with an honest winning strategy. They don't gossip or drama, they WORK! Unlike us - silly North Americans. BTW, those PCS at 4CC are totally home-cooked. Sorry.

madison said:

Because in Eteri's team is already a pattern this: young ladies burn out at an early age, although they want to continue. Yulia wanted to continue, she couldnt and therefore she ended with an eating disorder. Evgenia wants to continue but she has injuries. Alina wants to continue but her state is not good. Daria Panenkova wants to continue and she was really consistent 2 seasons in a row and during the summer suddenly we were told (by Daniil) that she doesnt want to train anymore. Probably Polina Sh wanted to continue as well.
I mean it is obvious that something happens in that team, something that is not healthy for the skaters. Their technique is not strong enough to carry them during puberty, and Eteri's mental games doesnt help either.

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Eteri has 2 senior ladies doing well this year. And if Zhenya stayed just 1 more year it would be 3. EG is not perfect but the facts are the facts.

Alexz said:

guys, it just simple as that: Russia's single ladies field is deep! Same as American WAG (gymnastics). Injury-comebacks, early burnouts, injury-career-endings, quick generation change and etc. All that jazz. Their ladies are just strong and ahead of time a bit. However Japanese ladies are rapidly closing the gap. I highly respect Japanese culture for their work ethics and ability to quickly come up with an honest winning strategy. They don't gossip or drama, they WORK! Unlike us - silly North Americans. BTW, those PCS at 4CC are totally home-cooked. Sorry.

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Exactly.

dippy said:

I’m literally never heard in Russia anybody saying stuff like that about soldiers. In fact, one of most famous war songs sung on Victory Day (9 May) has words “This is happiness with tears in eyes”. Even that victory is a tragedy because of the price paid. Soviet Union had a biggest human life loss in WW2, and I don’t think anyone other than someone borderline evil would say things like that.

Sorry for being off topic.

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That is something Georgy Zhukov supposed to have said, but in truth it's apocryphal. It's quite common for a historical figure to say something in a piece of fiction and then people become convinced it's an actual quote from them.

gsk8 said:

While articles of this nature give a platform for discussion, I think it's important for folks to remember that not all the free-lance bloggers, writers, and/or journalists (regardless of their nationality) are knowledgeable in the sport of figure skating - or any other sport for that matter. They see a story, do some quick surface research, and then run with it. Especially if it's a story of someone who makes history or is elevated to celebrity status in some way.

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Normally, I would see "deadspin" and ignore it. I think though, that this article touched on all the bases and did a good job of debunking many of the talking points. All in all a cogent discussion of the issue.

With the current level of tech in women's skating, I don't think anyone is able to sustain a high level of jumping for more than a couple of years. (of course there are a few exceptions, but not many). If you look back, the 'greats' in the past twenty years or so have all had about three years where their skills were high level (specifically jumping) , and then, if they have a rotten birthday, they are just trying to hold on until the Olympics. It isn't a Russian Issue.