Musicality, learned or innate?

draqq said:

At the moment, I find skaters like Nathan Chen, Patrick Chan, Alina Zagitova, and Bradie Tennell to possess more physical intention than emotional intention. In contrast Jason Brown, Carolina Kostner, Satoko Miyahara, Mariah Bell this year, and Kevin Aymoz skate with more emotional intention than physical intention.

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I agree with you up to a point. Some skaters find that emotional key inside a piece of music and can express that in every moment and flick of the wrist. However sometimes those that focus of the physical aspect of dance can transcend.

YMMV but when I see someone like Michael Jackson dancing the rhythm flows through him in such a way that even though he isn’t playing a character in the dance to find the core or perhaps he isn’t finding the emotion in an obvious way he and the beat become one. I think Michael got to that point by being able to control his every movement precisely, there is an appeal in that precision. So if Chen, Zagitova and Tennell want to go down the physical intention path they could still find musicality but in a different form.

DSQ said:

I agree with you up to a point. Some skaters find that emotional key inside a piece of music and can express that in every moment and flick of the wrist. However sometimes those that focus of the physical aspect of dance can transcend.

YMMV but when I see someone like Michael Jackson dancing the rhythm flows through him in such a way that even though he isn’t playing a character in the dance to find the core or perhaps he isn’t finding the emotion in an obvious way he and the beat become one. I think Michael got to that point by being able to control his every movement precisely, there is an appeal in that precision. So if Chen, Zagitova and Tennell want to go down the physical intention path they could still find musicality but in a different form.

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I don't think Jackson was just precise though. That adds a dimension to music, of course, but it was his pizzazz that got him where he was.

To the original question - Yes to a certain point. Unless you are born with two left feet, with a good training and determination, any decent level of athlete can learn to move correctly to the music and deliver a "good" performance. But to add "that something special", something subtle yet intense, and create a magic, IMO you need an inborn talent. And usually it manifests even when they are very young, at junior levels, as El Henry pointed out.

There are also some other skaters who don't show that side until they meet the right program, a program with music and choreography perfectly suited to the skater, then you discover his/her true talent after several years of watching without particularly being moved. Sometimes they will forever change your opinion of them with it, sometimes they go back to "meh" when the next programs don't click as "that one" did.

Then there are the sublime few, who can take any kind of music - a song you normally don't like, or ringtone of your phone - and make it into a gorgeous program and make you fall in love with it - Stephane Lambiel and Daisuke Takahashi are the examples, and Stephane's student Deniss Vasiljevs is showing every sign of becoming a member of the elite few.

draqq said:

Parts of musicality are learned more easily than others. I think anyone can learn to carry a beat and have good timing with the rhythm of the music, and with enough practice, know how and when to flourish any accents in the music.

But it's only a small crop of skaters who can move beyond that and learn to skate with emotional intention, that ability to have meaning behind a movement. Nowadays I find a lot of physical intention because of how technical the sport has become, so emotional intention is quite rare; not that one is better than the other or anything, just that emotional intention is far more uncommon. With respect to the topic, I think physical intention can be learned for the most part and that emotional intention is more innate than learned. Sometimes it takes maturity or some kind of artistic epiphany, but it is possible to learn.

At the moment, I find skaters like Nathan Chen, Patrick Chan, Alina Zagitova, and Bradie Tennell to possess more physical intention than emotional intention. In contrast Jason Brown, Carolina Kostner, Satoko Miyahara, Mariah Bell this year, and Kevin Aymoz skate with more emotional intention than physical intention.

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Emotional intention is more connected with PErformance component, but it certanly would help with expression of the music in the INterpretation category. But it also could be learned - acting and dancing classes could help for sure... But what i wanted to say on this topic is that being musical doesn't necesseraly mean your IN score would be high. In figure skating music is interpretated on a different stage, in the ice rink, so you need SS which allow you to use the full stage and the whole range of body movements to interpret. Also, its very common that even the most musical skaters are interpreting the music less time in their program, cause they are concentrated to perform required elements/jumps and as a product of that interpret the music just in some parts of their program. In both those cases even the skaters who we percived as more musical one wont score that high.

draqq said:

Parts of musicality are learned more easily than others. I think anyone can learn to carry a beat and have good timing with the rhythm of the music, and with enough practice, know how and when to flourish any accents in the music.

But it's only a small crop of skaters who can move beyond that and learn to skate with emotional intention, that ability to have meaning behind a movement.

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On the other hand, I also think it's possible to skate with emotional intention and meaning behind each movement while not being very musical at all. Imagine someone who is an accomplished actor but tonedeaf.


I think there are several different aspects to what we might call "musicality." Off the top of my head:

*Sensitivity to/control of pitch (important to instrumentalists and singers, not so much to dancers and skaters)

*Ability to maintain a steady rhythmic beat, with awareness of the underlying pattern of accents irrespective of the melody
*Ability to reflect melodic phrasing in units of, e.g., 8 measures at a time
*Ability to execute subtle variations of rhythm/timing to highlight individual notes or groups of notes within each phrase

*Use of dynamic variations: control of variations in movement quality note by note, phrase by phrase, and over larger sections to create contrast, build and release tension and intensity, etc.

*Reflection of the general emotional quality of a passage through appropriate types and qualities of movement and facial expression
*Reflection of emotional nuances within the music phrase by phrase and note by note

Any musicians or dancers out there care to offer more?


Who would you consider more musical?

*A skater who executes a step sequence (or, say, a set pattern dance) expressively with generally quick movements to quick music and slow movements to slow music, fluid movements to legato music and sharp movements to staccato music, with appropriate facial expression and expressive arm movements, but off the beat as often as on (the style and emotional affect match the music, the rhythm does not)

*A skater who executes a step sequence (or a set pattern dance) with every movement precisely timed to the music, but with blank facial expression and little subtlety or contrast within each phrase

Obviously both are lacking compared to a skater who can put all of the above together.

Is there a "right" answer as to whether timing is more important than expression or vice versa?

Do you prefer soulful emoting or upbeat danciness? Which do you think requires more "musicality"?

Which aspects of musicality we each value most highly will affect which skaters (or which performances by our favorite skaters) we think are more musical.

Is versatility important, when evaluating musicality of a person rather than a specific performance?

For skaters we're inclined to root for and pay closer attention to, we can probably perceive more subtleties in their performances than those we're predisposed not to enjoy -- for whatever reasons on both sides.

And skaters who are good at whatever appeals to us most, especially in terms of emotional expression (expressing the kinds of emotions that speak to us most deeply, using music that touches us more deeply), will grab our sympathies more than those who show as great or greater skill in expressing music and emotions that we don't enjoy.

These effects probably work unconsciously, in both fans and judges.

Which is why I think IN is probably the most subjective of the program components.


Sorry for the tangent away from the question of whether musicality is innate or learned. Except maybe to suggest that some parts may be more innate than others, or some may be more easily learned.

And we don't all agree on which skaters are most musical. So maybe naming names of recent favorites isn't the best way to make a case.

Ahhhhh this question makes me very happy because I just finished my master's thesis on teaching musicality in dance. Yes, I'm basically doxxing myself if anyone does know me in IRL. Oh well.

Anyways, if anyone is curious to read my research I'm happy to share it. But the nutshell version is basically, yes it can be taught. You can't make someone feel music in the emotional sense, but you can teach them how to listen for the various things that go into musicality--rhythm, dynamics, accent, phrasing, emotion (whether you feel or not, learning what reads as that emotion to the audience) et cetera. Eventually the goal is for that to be automatic and quick like any other training for speed or strength or whatever. Those of us who are innately musical do that process of listening and evaluating what we're hearing to turn it into related movement automatically, but some don't and need to be taught.

That being said, I didn't get into this in my research but it's in my own personal opinion that there is that little bit extra that some people just have that makes them very special to watch. I don't think that can be taught; I think it's a gift. Musicality is so closely intertwined with other aspects of artistry that it's a very difficult discussion to have in terms of comparing people.

Musicality can be learned or taught to a certain degree like Akiko liberated Rika Hongo's inner musicality in her early senior years. On the other hand, Akiko is a natural dancer and never needed to be taught how to move to music as her Libertango SP fascinated young Daisuke when they were still junior skaters.

As for Dai, he can sense a choreographer/composer/musician's intention to a subconscious level, and visualize it with his body. He can make any kind of music look interesting.

gkelly said:

I think there are several different aspects to what we might call "musicality." Off the top of my head:

*Sensitivity to/control of pitch (important to instrumentalists and singers, not so much to dancers and skaters)

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Lovely observation, and I love how you touched so many aspects of musicality and how particularly subjective it is, as well as how tied it is to other forms of artistry in skating.

Musician here, and this aspect (quoted above) actually has been on my mind in terms of finding what is the closest comparison for skaters in terms of the instrument that can show their sensitivity to/control of pitch. With singers it's their voice and with musicians it's their respective instruments, my best guess for skaters that it would be their bodies, their limbs- they way the skaters use it with the music they're using. Which makes me agree on this:

gkelly said:

On the other hand, I also think it's possible to skate with emotional intention and meaning behind each movement while not being very musical at all. Imagine someone who is an accomplished actor but tonedeaf.

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This is possible (and interesting to ponder too). There are skaters who are exceptional dancers off-ice and are able to translate that mastery on-ice, but the end result may not always translates as musical to fans who are watching. And there are skaters who can't dance at all, but can be perceived as musical based on how they respond to music.

Also while I do agree that musicality should be separate from choreo, I feel like it matters as well how musically inclined the choreographer is. There are choreographers who focus more on music, and others who focus more on movements. A skater may be musically inclined, but if he/she/they are directed by the choreographer to respond or do movements that are working against the music, I think the end result can come off as dissonant. On the other hand, if the choreographer is musically inclined but the skater is not (or have a different way in approaching music) the end result can come off as boring/lacking the "right" energy.

gkelly said:

And we don't all agree on which skaters are most musical. So maybe naming names of recent favorites isn't the best way to make a case.

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Yep. Also there are just so! many! ways! that the skaters and their teams can take to approach music, that what one think is musical may not be so for another. It makes for an exciting field to watch.

Personally, musical or not musical, skaters have to present it through their skating. That is why I dislike overdone miming and sometimes right on note choreographed programs, the latter is a good vehicle to make someone appear more artistic/ musical though.

^My peeve is overdramatic facial expressions. Ya know what I mean.....the ” I feel this music so much” facial expressions.

Musicality is both learned and innate and most performers with innate ability, if lucky, go thru intense learning to realize the maximum ability their gifts allow. We have all seen varying abilities in musical ice performances, some unforgettable, others not so much. The discussion here seems to have also embraced the concept of Duende in performance, which transcends virtuosity or skill. Duende does not discriminate; it comes to the master and to the novice alike... it s not a question of ability but rather a mysterious power which comes from inside. Garcia Lorca said: " Duende is... an alternative to style, to mere virtuosity, to God-given grace and charm, and to classical, artistic norms dictated by the Muse. To a higher degree it surpasses the Muse and siezes not only the performer but also the audience. It dilates the mind so intensity becomes almost unbearable"... this cannot be taught, only felt.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duende_(art)

Sam-Skwantch said:

^My peeve is overdramatic facial expressions. Ya know what I mean.....the ” I feel this music so much” facial expressions.

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...which does tend (and I am thinking of one skater in particular who I happily watch for just this, no names) to translate as "I should not have eaten that last night, have indigestion/constipation soooooooooo bad....."

chopinskate said:

Agreed. Rather an absent-the-soul quality.

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topic: I'm trying to send you the thesis link as requested but it just says you're not receiving private messages. So... let me know what you want me to do!

Mathman said:

I think that the type of moving to music that we see in competitive figure skating can be taught and learned. All figure skaters are naturally graceful. (That's why they are not hockey players. ). Working with a good choreographer, it does not seem to be beyond their capacity to learn to match movement to musical phrasing, etc.

On the other hand, there is a limit to how musical the set-up for a a quad Lutz can be. I would say that there is only a handful of skaters, like John Curry, whose sense of the music carries all.

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I agree about John Curry. I would also add Robin Cousins. Not as classical but, still musical for his era. Paul Wiley was also very musical.



Patrick Chan, Joshua Farris.....Nathan Chen and Jason Brown were/are musical

Just my opinion:
Musicality expressed through body movement is much more innate and harder to learn vs facial expressions which are easier to learn and perfect.

I love facial expressions. Body musicality is wonderful but I tend to relate to others by their facial expressions. I loved Evgenias miming and overall actress like qualities but I also just appreciate anyone who seems to be enjoying what they are doing. Makes me enjoy it more also.

What a most excellent thread! The very definition of musicality is allusive, but for the sake of argument, let us say that on the judging sheet, its "Interpretation of the music" although for me its also part of the whole program components. Yes, it can be taught to a point, just as any performance art like acting, of which musicality has a part of, can be taught to a point. The trouble is, quality in thought and deed is "just what you like". I see Jason Brown (Riverdance) , Hanyu, but especially Rika Kihira, Mai Mihara and especially especially Kaori put out programs this season set to perfect music expressed beautifully that are very emotional. Same with Mao's Madame Butterfly. They use every little movement and facial expression to reach the audience and make them feel the music AND the story the music might be telling. Others might say that for them, Elizabet has musicality that makes THEM feel. Frankly, there are skaters past and present who could be skating to "Three Blind Mice" as there is no connection to the music or the audience. For me.
But back to the "to a point" point. Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly could sing, act, but boy could they dance and with musicality, In my book. But no one is gonna be able to teach me to do what they did....they had a gift that was developed....just like Kaori has.

asingingwife said:

I love facial expressions. Body musicality is wonderful but I tend to relate to others by their facial expressions. I loved Evgenias miming and overall actress like qualities but I also just appreciate anyone who seems to be enjoying what they are doing. Makes me enjoy it more also.

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Me too, this is why I prefer Shcherbakova over Kostornaya. Although Alena showed more facial expression than usual at Jr Nationals. But Anna purely looks like she is enjoying it so much and just loves to skate as well as her natural artistry/musicality and I love that

asingingwife said:

I love facial expressions. Body musicality is wonderful but I tend to relate to others by their facial expressions. I loved Evgenias miming and overall actress like qualities but I also just appreciate anyone who seems to be enjoying what they are doing. Makes me enjoy it more also.

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Facial expression is a type of body activity people are most relatable to by nature, and as important part of any human activity it is important in interpretation of the music too. Evgenia and Ashley are very good examples of using the facial expression to interpret the music.

Princessroja said:

But the nutshell version is basically, yes it can be taught. You can't make someone feel music in the emotional sense, but you can teach them how to listen for the various things that go into musicality--rhythm, dynamics, accent, phrasing, emotion (whether you feel or not, learning what reads as that emotion to the audience) et cetera. Eventually the goal is for that to be automatic and quick like any other training for speed or strength or whatever. Those of us who are innately musical do that process of listening and evaluating what we're hearing to turn it into related movement automatically, but some don't and need to be taught.

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this post was everything!!!

So I cheated and googled. I looked at this from a musician POV, although the dance is probably the most appropriate performing art equivalent.

https://www.musical-u.com/learn/what-is-musicality/
These guys argue that musicianship is the more formal term for musicality. So they defined musicianship as the knowledge, skill, and artistic sensitivity in performing music.

They have a simplified definition of musicality as a set of “inner skills” which let you freely and confidently express yourself in music.

They end with their list of skills needed for a musician to be musical. From personal experience, some of those skills I am naturally good at, but I had to be shown how to do all of them and I had to practice each on my own.

It’s all on a spectrum, very rarely an either/or. Knowledge must be imparted/taught, skill is taught but must be developed by the person themselves, artistic sensitivity seems to be innate but that too can be taught and developed although with some difficulty.