Women and the Quad | Page 25 | Golden Skate

Women and the Quad

Orlov

Medalist
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
At the Olympics, Yagudin jumped 4T with a 180 degrees prer. And he became a well deserved Olympic champion. It has been 17 years and Sasha's 4T with the same prer become bad (for some people). Oh time how fast you flow!
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Trusova has more than 1/2 turn pre-rotation on her 4T. With her it's not entirely from the toepick, but how she curves the blade around during the takeoff too. That's not inherently bad, but the landing should be further around, and it isn't. She occasionally lands the 4Toe backwards in relation to where she was originally stroking down the ice into it, but never from the point that she actually left the ice.

Also notice how much more distance Yagudin's 4Toe covers and how he isn't still rotating like crazy as he lands; there is space in air as he's coming down, allowing him to pull out of the rotation and get into landing position. Trusova is always rotating as she lands; the jump doesn't complete the rotation in the air and then descend onto the ice.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Trusova has more than 1/2 turn pre-rotation on her 4T. With her it's not entirely from the toepick, but how she curves the blade around during the takeoff too. That's not inherently bad, but the landing should be further around, and it isn't. She occasionally lands the 4Toe backwards in relation to where she was originally stroking down the ice into it, but never from the point that she actually left the ice.

Also notice how much more distance Yagudin's 4Toe covers and how he isn't still rotating like crazy as he lands; there is space in air as he's coming down, allowing him to pull out of the rotation and get into landing position. Trusova is always rotating as she lands; the jump doesn't complete the rotation in the air and then descend onto the ice.

make a gif or something showing it, because we clearly need it.
 

Orlov

Medalist
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Trusova has more than 1/2 turn pre-rotation on her 4T.
No. I'm sure you can slow down the speed of the video in YouTube.

Look, Sasha has even a smaller body turn than Yagudin at the time of the start push. (Yagudin have 90 degrees in moment of pushing). Careful examination of the frames shows that Yagudin tears away toepick from the ice at an angle of rotation of even more than 180. He has even more prer than Sasha.

btw, I note that you say a lot of irrelevant information.

P.S. look, here Sasha have prer less than 180 degrees - for me it's ~150 degrees prer. Yes, if it is very strictly judged, she has 60 degrees ur here. But she has prer less than Yagudin by about 30-40 degrees, so for me it's the pretty same quality 4T :) Therefore, it is not surprising that Yagudin says in this video that it was an ideal 4T :)
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
It should be, otherwise it's being scored wrong. Judges should have a clear mental picture of a best possible execution and be comparing to that. If they are receiving +4/5 for mediocrity, then they won't improve. When will we ever again see a Midori Ito 3Axel, if everyone thinks they don't need to achieve that level to get max points anyway?

She is one of my all time faves, but sorry not even Midori's 3A is a +5 using the current rules and even a 4 is generous. Her leg wrap automatically deducts 1 and often the landing would often be wild. The amplitude is jaw dropping but a judge who was actually considering GOE rewards and penalties would never give her a perfect mark for her axel unless the amplitude completely shook them.
 

Alexz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Country
United-States
When we will get more quads in the Ladies filed we can compare and discuss and see who is worthy of either +3, or +4, or +5 GoE.

Besides we don't punish Ladies for their pre-rotations on "trivial" triple jumps. Last time I checked not much of under-rotations or even wrong edges were called at recent Worlds either. And you guys proposing to nitpick on 40-180 degree of alleged pre-rotation ON A QUAD? I suggest we start punishing PR, UR and e/! edges on TRIPLES first. This will make them to learn a proper technique on "simple" jumps, for starters. And while we at it lets extend the same standards and nitpicking on the Men's field. :biggrin:
 

tral

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
I said in 2011 that it was cheated and shouldn't have been ratified. This jump rotation subject is something I've been vocal about for over a decade. Here's one of my posts about it from back then that I could find - https://goldenskate.com/forum/showt...z-s-Quad-Lutz!&p=586271&viewfull=1#post586271

Yes, his executions visibly look like glorified triples. The judges need to use their eyes more often.

Irina Slutskaya's best performance that same year for example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJRzBUQblbQ - Slutskaya was less refined and artistic than Kwan, yet look at how much superior the performance still is in comparison to Trusova.

Not just performance, that basic jumping from Slutskaya is on another level, too.

But, I will give Trusova some time. I doubt her jumps will be done with great technique, but I would hope she will improve in the remaining criteria. Just wish she (and others) were judges accurately in the mean-time.

She is one of my all time faves, but sorry not even Midori's 3A is a +5 using the current rules and even a 4 is generous. Her leg wrap automatically deducts 1 and often the landing would often be wild. The amplitude is jaw dropping but a judge who was actually considering GOE rewards and penalties would never give her a perfect mark for her axel unless the amplitude completely shook them.

:laugh: I guess it is to be expected from you. Blades of Passion never made a claim that ALL her triple axels deserved +4s and +5s, and funny how I've never seen a justification about how her "leg-wrap" is the same kind of technical flaw as from someone like Yukari Nakano.
 

jenm

The Last One Degree
Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
I always thought that if there will be a discussion on PR on quads, it would be Anna Scherbakova or Elizabet Tursynbaeva who would be scrutinized. Not Sasha Trusova. lol
 

oatmella

陈巍
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
I always thought that if there will be a discussion on PR on quads, it would be Anna Scherbakova or Elizabet Tursynbaeva who would be scrutinized. Not Sasha Trusova. lol

Sasha has the potential for highest TES - 100+ (only achievable by a few men), so that could explain why some might want to scrutinize her quads. She could be the biggest threat to dominate the ladies field, from her BV.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
When we will get more quads in the Ladies filed we can compare and discuss and see who is worthy of either +3, or +4, or +5 GoE.

Besides we don't punish Ladies for their pre-rotations on "trivial" triple jumps. Last time I checked not much of under-rotations or even wrong edges were called at recent Worlds either. And you guys proposing to nitpick on 40-180 degree of alleged pre-rotation ON A QUAD? I suggest we start punishing PR, UR and e/! edges on TRIPLES first. This will make them to learn a proper technique on "simple" jumps, for starters. And while we at it lets extend the same standards and nitpicking on the Men's field. :biggrin:

THIS.
After the way they judged at Worlds, honestly, Sasha's quads would have to be called quints to make it equally atrocious.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
No. I'm sure you can slow down the speed of the video in YouTube.

Look, Sasha has even a smaller body turn than Yagudin at the time of the start push. (Yagudin have 90 degrees in moment of pushing). Careful examination of the frames shows that Yagudin tears away toepick from the ice at an angle of rotation of even more than 180. He has even more prer than Sasha.

LOL, I've already even made screencaps of this jump from Trusova before. It's more pre-rotated than you say, and cheated overall. Look:

Takeoff / Landing

She doesn't get 1/4 turn past the point she left the ice.

She is one of my all time faves, but sorry not even Midori's 3A is a +5 using the current rules and even a 4 is generous. Her leg wrap automatically deducts 1 and often the landing would often be wild.

Not all of her 3A attempts were perfect of course, but several were. The one she did at 1990 Worlds is a +5. There frankly aren't even any men left who do 3A that powerfully. Her leg "wrap" doesn't automatically deduct anything, it's fine. A wrap is really just a problem if it's showing a sign of laziness in the skater's overall position and distracting from the look of the air rotations, but that's not what's going on with Midori.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Not all of her 3A attempts were perfect of course, but several were. The one she did at 1990 Worlds is a +5. There frankly aren't even any men left who do 3A that powerfully. Her leg "wrap" doesn't automatically deduct anything, it's fine. A wrap is really just a problem if it's showing a sign of laziness in the skater's overall position and distracting from the look of the air rotations, but that's not what's going on with Midori.

That's a +4 for me. With a nicer air position (yes it *is* distracting for the look of the air rotations - an air position like Asada's or Kihira's is much more ideal) and less telegraphing it would be a +5. It is beautifully done though in terms of impact, unquestionable rotation, and amplitude.
 
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