Johnny Weir makes me want to throw a brick through my TV

iluvtodd · Apr 14, 2019

Mathman said:
So, is that "i" separately pronounced (Bre-ZHEE-na or BREZH-i-na) or is it some sort of diphthong with the z: BREZHna? I noticed that Terry Gannon especially has gone back to the separate "i" sound, after switching back and forth in the past.
)

At 2016 Worlds I purposely asked Michal Brezina how to pronounce his last name accurately, & he said "Bre-Zee'-na," so that's how I'm saying it. What is the authentic Czech pronunciation of it, though, as now I am confused?

Just for the record, I was a Foreign Language Education major in college (with a concentration in French & Spanish) & subsequently an ESL teacher, so I have always aimed for accuracy in pronouncing names. I can't tell you how many times I cringed in school when the principal/vice principal would announce foreign names over the PA system & "butcher" them (especially with the Asian names). If only they would consult with the ESL teachers in my school to double check the correct pronunciation of the names beforehand. It would avoid lots of the embarrassment for the students.

Mathman · Apr 14, 2019

Harriet said:
Prussia is a historical region in Germany; some of my ancestors came from there.

My understanding is that the history of Poland and Prussia was pretty complicated. Much of the territory that comprised Prussia as part of the German Empire was in Poland. According to Wikipedia, the province of East Prussia (capital at Warsaw) was about two-thirds Polish in population. From time to time the Poles tried to resist German rule, but without success.

Just looking at the name Czisny, I do not see anything German about it, which led me to conjecture that Alissa's family was originally from the Polish part of the population, and the name was shortened when they moved to America. (I have no idea if any of this is actually true -- I just think that this is an unusual and interesting name, whose origin seems to be obscure.)

My great grandfather ran the general store in a small farming community in the U.S. state of North Dakota. In those days there were a lot of "Russian" immigrant farm workers (actually Ukrainians and Poles, but the locals didn't know the difference). The first thing they did was come in to the general store and establish a line of credit. Granddad would listen to the name and try to spell it phonetically as best he could. That became the person's official name on all subsequent U.S. records.

Mathman · Apr 14, 2019

CoyoteChris said:
I give (Tara) some slack cause getting her to say two words in Public used to be like pulling hens teeth. I think , and this is a WAG, JMTC, and IMHO, that she is just nervous and thinks she has to produce and ends up saying too much at times.

I got that same impression when she first started. It seemed like Terry Gannon was delberately feeding her lines just to get her to speak up. (So, Tara, how old were you when you won the Olympics?) She has gotten more confident and natural with experience.

I remember Peggy Fleming saying that when she started commentating she was so afraid of Dick Button that it held her back for a while.

moonvine · Apr 14, 2019

el henry said:
It is no secret that I adore Donovan Carrillo:luv17: Donovan's first name in Spanish, between the accent on a different syllable, the long o versus the short o, and the mysteries of the "bcorte" to an English speaker, is not at all pronounced like Donovan in English. When speaking to fellow Anglophones, I could pronounce Donovan Carrillo as it's pronounced in Spanish (even trilling my r's, which given all my years in French I'm rather good at trilling my r's ), and to what end? No one would know who the heck I'm talking about. ETA: if I were speaking to Spanish speakers, I would absolutely make the attempt. Only without the Argentinian accent that would change Carri-yo to Carri-zho

That's my issue. I could go around saying "Kikero" (the correct original pronunciation) to modern English speakers and they would have no idea to what ancient Roman orator I refer. When I say how much I adore Donovan, I want Anglophones to know of whom I speak:yes:

I have a Bachelor's degree in Spanish and English (love language) and cannot trill my r's. What is the secret? And I love Donovan too, wonder if there is any chance he will be in Philly?

oatmella · Apr 14, 2019

iluvtodd said:
At 2016 Worlds I purposely asked Michal Brezina how to pronounce his last name accurately, & he said "Bre-Zee'-na," so that's how I'm saying it. What is the authentic Czech pronunciation of it, though, as now I am confused?

Just for the record, I was a Foreign Language Education major in college (with a concentration in French & Spanish) & subsequently an ESL teacher, so I have always aimed for accuracy in pronouncing names. I can't tell you how many times I cringed in school when the principal/vice principal would announce foreign names over the PA system & "butcher" them (especially with the Asian names). If only they would consult with the ESL teachers in my school to double check the correct pronunciation of the names beforehand. It would avoid lots of the embarrassment for the students.

I believe that is the correct Czech pronunciation.

I also appreciate Johnny’s pronunciation of names, especially Russian names - and also names like Matteo Rizzo.

ice coverage · Apr 14, 2019

Arriba627 said:
I'm ok with Tara and Johnny. The one who makes me crazy is Tanith. She NEVER stops talking. One of the most frustrating commentaries I've ever heard was her 2016 U.S. Nats Shibs FS commentary. She talked about the music so much that you couldn't even hear the music and went on and on about their emotional journey. As the music was building and the crowd was roaring its approval during their twizzles, mostly you just heard her talking and lost the whole emotional impact of what was going on at the competition. When they were in the K & C and the scores came up, she was STILL talking and Terry cut her off so we could hear the scores. Sheesh!

CoyoteChris said:
I give her some slack cause getting her to say two words in Public used to be like pulling hens teeth. I think , and this is a WAG, JMTC, and IMHO, that she is just nervous and thinks she has to produce and ends up saying too much at times.

Mathman said:
Originally Posted by CoyoteChris
I give (Tara) some slack cause getting her to say two words in Public used to be like pulling hens teeth. I think , and this is a WAG, JMTC, and IMHO, that she is just nervous and thinks she has to produce and ends up saying too much at times.

Click to expand...

I got that same impression when she first started. It seemed like Terry Gannon was delberately feeding her lines just to get her to speak up. (So, Tara, how old were you when you won the Olympics?) She has gotten more confident and natural with experience.

I remember Peggy Fleming saying that when she started commentating she was so afraid of Dick Button that it held her back for a while.

Mathman: I think Chris was referring to Tanith, not Tara? That's what came across to me, because Chris was replying to Arriba's comments about Tanith.

iluvtodd said:
At 2016 Worlds I purposely asked Michal Brezina how to pronounce his last name accurately, & he said "Bre-Zee'-na," so that's how I'm saying it. What is the authentic Czech pronunciation of it, though, as now I am confused?

Just for the record, I was a Foreign Language Education major in college (with a concentration in French & Spanish) & subsequently an ESL teacher, so I have always aimed for accuracy in pronouncing names. I can't tell you how many times I cringed in school when the principal/vice principal would announce foreign names over the PA system & "butcher" them (especially with the Asian names). If only they would consult with the ESL teachers in my school to double check the correct pronunciation of the names beforehand. It would avoid lots of the embarrassment for the students.

At least when speaking in English, Brezina also pronounces "Michal" as an American would pronounce "Michael," although I'm sure the authentic pronunciation of Michal must be something different??

(You and I are on the same page, iluvtodd, but I just want to be clear for others that Brezina is a different case from Zagitova, for example. Unless Zagitova herself has been known to habitually "Americanize" her name, I don't understand criticizing a U.S. commentator for pronouncing Zagitova correctly.)

Question for those who are critics of Weir's (correct) pronunciation:

Do you think that Meryl Davis deserves the same kind of criticism?

This thread has reminded me of an Olympic Channel video preview (in English) of 2019 Worlds -- given by Scott Bregman (who is American, AFAIK) and Meryl.
As he was trying to bring up the topic of James/Cipres, Scott was hesitating over Morgan's last name.

To help Scott out, Meryl stepped in with a pleasant tone of authority and easily said: "Cipres" (with the same pronunciation that Morgan himself uses).
(The way that the correct pronunciation so readily and flawlessly rolled off her tongue, I got the impression that Meryl probably is fluent in French and has an impeccable accent.)

So for those who think Johnny's pronunciation is an affectation and just showing off, would you have the same criticism of Meryl's pronunciation?

(Even though I don't know French, it pleased me that Meryl was faithful to Morgan's own pronunciation.)

Mathman · Apr 14, 2019

ice coverage said:
Mathman: I think Chris was referring to Tanith, not Tara? That's what came across to me, because Chris was replying to Arriba's comments about Tanith.

Oh. thank you. In that case I am not sure that I agree with Chris. Tanith had a certain amount of TV work on a modest scale locally in Detroit before she became a national commentator. She also was not shy about taking the mic at skating shows (she was better even than Ben).

Tanith had a local TV show about "quaint and charming little towns in Michigan" for a few episodes -- although I had the suspicion that she got the job on her looks rather than on her expertise in the subject.

By the way, this Phoenician name comes from the principal goddess of Carthage. I don't know how the Carthaginians pronounced it in 500 BCE, though.

The way that the correct pronunciation [of Cipres] so readily and flawlessly rolled off her tongue, I got the impression that Meryl probably is fluent in French and has an impeccable accent.

I don't know about "fluent," but she did study Italian at the University of Michigan in support of a major in cultural anthropology. She appears on local TV in Detroit every once in a while, too, but only about figure skating or skating projects like the Detroit chapter of Figure Skating in Harlem.

Even though I don't know French, it pleased me that Meryl was faithful to Morgan's own pronunciation.

Americans are the worlds worst linguists. But it is within the reach of even the worst when someone says, in French just drop whatever letter is at the end, say eee for i and long "a" for e, et voila!. Other languages are much harder for Anglophones. Even when you ask a person over and over how to pronounce their name and try hard to master it, a tin ear and clumsy tongue are the enemy.

I am proud of myself that now I can recognize "Zagitova" in Cyrillic. (Hint to Americans. If it starts with a 3, that's Alina.

) I think there are many Americans of good will who are not deliberately trying to play dumb or to be obstinate, but are just not very good at languages.

As for Johnny, if he can speak Russian, good for him. I think the criticism is more that overall he sends out a supercilious vibe that is either off-putting to audiences, or else -- "oh, that Johnny."

el henry · Apr 14, 2019

Mathman said:
My understanding is that the history of Poland and Prussia was pretty complicated. Much of the territory that comprised Prussia as part of the German Empire was in Poland. According to Wikipedia, the province of East Prussia (capital at Warsaw) was about two-thirds Polish in population. From time to time the Poles tried to resist German rule, but without success.

Just looking at the name Czisny, I do not see anything German about it, which led me to conjecture that Alissa's family was originally from the Polish part of the population, and the name was shortened when they moved to America. (I have no idea if any of this is actually true -- I just think that this is an unusual and interesting name, whose origin seems to be obscure.)

My great grandfather ran the general store in a small farming community in the U.S. state of North Dakota. In those days there were a lot of "Russian" immigrant farm workers (actually Ukrainians and Poles, but the locals didn't know the difference). The first thing they did was come in to the general store and establish a line of credit. Granddad would listen to the name and try to spell it phonetically as best he could. That became the person's official name on all subsequent U.S. records.

Alyssa Czisny is such an interesting name. Spousal unit’s maternal grandfather emigrated as a child from what he called Prussia, and his last name was German. But the town he emigrated from, Stettin in German, is evidently now part of Poland. (I don’t know for sure, my knowledge of that geography is woefully insufficient). So maybe they knew the Czisny’s

And where did they emigrate to? North Dakota :biggrin:

where Spousal Unit’s mother was born and remembered breaking through the ice in the pickle barrel outside to get to the pickles.

And jumping off to address other posts, no, the examples don’t change my opinion, because they don’t address the point I thought I was trying to make. I don’t think my point about pronunciation can be made in print, it needs to be made viva voce We need a GS zoom channel. :laugh:

So I am retiring from the scrum.

Ross74 · Apr 14, 2019

Mathman said:
Just looking at the name Czisny, I do not see anything German about it, which led me to conjecture that Alissa's family was originally from the Polish part of the population, and the name was shortened when they moved to America. (I have no idea if any of this is actually true -- I just think that this is an unusual and interesting name, whose origin seems to be obscure.)

The surname Szczęsny is a common surname in former Prussian areas, as it is in Poland in general. I'd bet that's the origin of Alyssa's name.

ice coverage · Apr 14, 2019

Mathman said:
… Americans are the worlds worst linguists. But it is within the reach of even the worst when someone says, in French just drop whatever letter is at the end, say eee for i and long "a" for e, et voila!. …

The full effect of Meryl's pronunciation of "Cipres" is more than the steps that you mention. I like her "r."

The part of the conversation that I mentioned (and found pleasing) starts at about 6:12.

After saying "Morgan Cipres" (with a flourish), Meryl even tells Bregman, "Try to say it with a French accent."

https://www.pscp.tv/olympicchannel/1DXGyavqabYGM?t=6m3s

And then Meryl later refers to James/Cipres at approx. 7:30, in answer to a general question about partnerships.

She again uses the full-blown French pronunciation of "Cipres." Not toned down or Americanized in any way. (And again, pleasing for me to hear.)

Mathman said:
… As for Johnny, if he can speak Russian, good for him. I think the criticism is more that overall he sends out a supercilious vibe that is either off-putting to audiences, or else -- "oh, that Johnny."

Similarly, I suspect that people who do criticize Johnny for correct pronunciation would not be inclined to criticize Meryl for correct pronunciation -- because Meryl's overall personality is generally perceived to be free of affectation.

For me: There are plenty of times that I too get a supercilious vibe from Johnny, but when I do, it has nothing to do with his correct pronunciation.

Mathman · Apr 14, 2019

Ross74 said:
The surname Szczęsny is a common surname in former Prussian areas, as it is in Poland in general. I'd bet that's the origin of Alyssa's name.

Does this mean that I can finally stop stalking Alissa by trying to look up her name on ancestry.com?

Mathman · Apr 14, 2019

el henry said:
And where did they emigrate to? North Dakota.

I thought you were going to say they immigrated to King-of-Prussia, Pa.

Mathman · Apr 14, 2019

ice coverage said:
The full effect of Meryl's pronunciation of "Cipres" is more than the steps that you mention. I like her "r."

The part of the conversation that I mentioned (and found pleasing) starts at about 6:12.

After saying "Morgan Cipres" (with a flourish), Meryl even tells Bregman, "Try to say it with a French accent."

https://www.pscp.tv/olympicchannel/1DXGyavqabYGM?t=6m3s

I suspect that people who do criticize Johnny for correct pronunciation would not be inclined to criticize Meryl for correct pronunciation -- because Meryl's overall personality is generally perceived to be free of affectation.

Meryl's accent in that clip is SO CHARMING. Or do I mean, Meryl is so charming?

PS. IC, can you delete some of the PMs in your mailbox? Ypur mailbox is full, which for some reason causes error messages to pop up when I quote your posts.

Lamente Ariane · Apr 14, 2019

I'm never going to complain about someone pronouncing names correctly-- I just wish Johnny and the NBC crew would extend the same courtesy to say, Kaori Sakamoto and Eunsoo Lim that he does to any given Russian skater. (It'd sure help if the announcers got their names right too

)

Mathman · Apr 14, 2019

Lamente Ariane said:
I'm never going to complain about someone pronouncing names correctly -- I just wish Johnny and the NBC crew would extend the same courtesy to say, Kaori Sakamoto and Eunsoo Lim that he does to any given Russian skater. (It'd sure help if the announcers got their names right too )

I think it's a tough challenge. Any American announcer could learn to do a passible job with a name in a Romance or Germanic language. Once you get outside the Indo-European group, I think a native English speaker without any language training will start to get in trouble, even those that are well-intentioned and conscientious.

I once had a graduate student whose mother tongue was one of the Khoisan "click" languages of Southern Africa. I was helpless to duplicate the sounds in her name.

figurefan0726 · Apr 15, 2019

I don’t like Tara and Johnny. I prefer the British Eurosport guys!

CellarDweller · Apr 15, 2019

I will admit that I enjoyed hearing Tara get very pointed with Johnny at one of the competitions when he wouldn't let go of a specific criticism of a male skater.

I try to avoid critiquing his appearance because that's his personal choice, and it doesn't reflect on his ability to commentate. It's not for me, but if it suits him, so be it. The one thing he does that annoys the living crap out of me is when he tries to work "Buttonisms" into his commentary. It's not uncommon to hear him say "it will hold him in good stead", which Dick Button said all the time. Makes me want to shout to the TV "You're not Dick Button, and never will be."

anonymoose_au · Apr 15, 2019

CellarDweller said:
...The one thing he does that annoys the living crap out of me is when he tries to work "Buttonisms" into his commentary. It's not uncommon to hear him say "it will hold him in good stead", which Dick Button said all the time. Makes me want to shout to the TV "You're not Dick Button, and never will be."

I don't think you can hold that against Johnny or at least not that particular phrase, it's a well known one. I've used it myself!

dorispulaski · Apr 16, 2019

Lamente Ariane said:
I'm never going to complain about someone pronouncing names correctly-- I just wish Johnny and the NBC crew would extend the same courtesy to say, Kaori Sakamoto and Eunsoo Lim that he does to any given Russian skater. (It'd sure help if the announcers got their names right too )

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?56503-Help-Needed-pronouncing-Skaters-Names

GS has a thread for documenting the correct way to pronounce skaters' names, which we chose to define as the way the skaters pronounced their names themselves. It has been rather inactive this year, so there are a number of outstanding skaters for whom we don't have info.

If you add a link to a vid or audio file of the skater pronouncing his or her own name, we will link it in the OP of their fan fest.

It is now officially the off season!

Perhaps we could tweet the correct pronounciation of Kaori and Eunsoo's names to Johnny

surimi · Apr 16, 2019

iluvtodd said:
At 2016 Worlds I purposely asked Michal Brezina how to pronounce his last name accurately, & he said "Bre-Zee'-na," so that's how I'm saying it. What is the authentic Czech pronunciation of it, though, as now I am confused?

First syllable accented. No vowel reductions, the central 'i' isn't long but short. The ř/rz sound is very hard to pronounce so just 'r' will have to do. Definitely no 'zh' sound in the middle of the word, 'z' remains 'z'.

Johnny Weir makes me want to throw a brick through my TV

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