2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

flanker said:

The song, not the program. Now I've seen the program, before I've seen it I did not comment the program.

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I don't know why you criticise before seeing the program.

silveruskate said:

I don't know why you criticise before seeing the program.

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I did not. Read carefully: I did not like the music, so I said "I don't like the music". I didn't say "I don't like the program" before I've seen it.

flanker said:

I did not. Read carefully: I did not like the music, so I said "I don't like the music". I didn't say "I don't like the program" before I've seen it.

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Same thing for me. You can wait till seeing it before criticising the music choice.

silveruskate said:

Same thing for me. You can wait till seeing it before criticising the music choice.

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So, when you hear the song, you don't like or dislike it till some skater uses it for his/her program? Oh, where all the song ratings would be without figure skating

Skater Boy said:

Thank you for being a nerd. Irina is going to be hard to break especially with the limited career span of most Russian ladies.

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Yes, both Slutskaya and Butryskaya seem unbeatable. But Sokolova in third place should be overtaken. Medvedeva, Tuktamysheva and if she stays healthy Zagitova can beat her.

flanker said:

If you remember, it was not that I rushed to start polemic with you. It was you who reacted on me, in reaction to a very brief note (which was general, not aimed on you particularly). So, you are "not the fan of the music choice", ok, but you also felt the need to persuade me and others about that too much, when there was no blame. And to be honest, I always feel quite suspicious when someone tries to persuade me about something too much, too loudly, too extensively, about "I'm not something" when I've not even implied that at that moment.

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See, you did not answer my question. It was a rather simple one, actually. Does the criticism I offered fit into what you perceive as "normal" criticism? Yes or no? And again, I'm not talking about this one comment you seem to love so much ("Aliona's getting this bad FS because she's not the darling of the team") because I don't exactly agree with that either.

It doesn't matter who started the discussion and I did not want to persuade you or anyone to not like the music choice either, why would I. I answered to your comment to point out that maybe the criticism against Aliona's FS might have been, in some ways, correct, even if it did work out in the end.

flanker said:

I've pointed out here more. But fromyour comment I think you have the idea what I've been talking about. So, you don't like particular style ("current style, e.g many transitions and full programs"). OK, but that's subjective matter, that's what I'm talking about. And no matter how much you try, it is your personal taste, nothing else (because, to be honest, you too often sounds as if you've swallowed the dictionary of figure skating terms).

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I'm sorry but maybe we should stop this discussion here because it's very clear that you have not read my post at all. I said very clearly that I like this particular style but only when it's done well. Maybe you should read that again because this is a very obvious difference from what you're claiming here.

And I have no problem at all sounding as if I swallowed the dictionary of figure skating terms. You see, this might be because I have read the rules. And yes, there are some and yes, in theory, the judges should follow them. So, in short words and without using any of those terms: I was merely pointing out to you that my criticism of Alina's program is in some cases not just my particular opinion but something the judges have in their own rulebooks. And if some things are rewarded, e.g. gets 237 as a score like you love to point out, then this does not mean that it is always entirely correct. Because, in fact, in some cases she should get lower scores for not following the rules. I know you don't want to read them, that's fine, but then don't act as if there weren't any. That's as if I was running around claiming Zhenya's flutz is a technically correct jump just because the judges don't punish it and I like the way it looks.

flanker said:

The thing is that when you refer to "you cannot tell me that those aren't getting their fair share of criticism as well", you are shielding yourself by what others do. Now I will be on the thin ice, but what was the absolutely most inappropriate program for a russian lady last season? Yes, it was Zhenya's original SP, that was so much out of her style that windows were shaking of it. Whatever objections could be made against Aliona's Juliet or Alina'S POTO or Carmen were absolutely and totally minor in comparison. But the amount of criticism those two skaters programs received was completely incomparable with what holy Orser's team received for complete lack of insight. And then, when it was changed (finally!), it was like "that happens, just look to the future, no point in looking in the past." That's just one of the examples why I'm more than reserved to the critics from the people who have their sympathies elsewhere.

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I'm not shielding myself from anything, I'm merely tired of these posts where it's constantly cried about how Tutberidze's skaters always get criticized so unfairly when in fact, this is not the case and it happens to everyone. That's what I wanted to say.

(Programs) discussions happen to everyone. Sofia ("she only has consistency, nothing special, would never win without mistakes from others, boring skater" - harsh and unnecessary criticism) or Mishin's team as a whole ("their programs are empty and have no transitions and should therefore get low PCS scores" - appropriate criticism) So, tell me how Alina ("sometimes she doesn't finish her moves and should therefore get small deductions in her PCS score") or Aliona ("I think Twilight music isn't the best for her, it's a bit too immature and her skating is more sophisticated") is so bad? People are just talking, there are very rarely evil intentions behind that.

I frankly have no idea what Zhenya's SP has anything to do with it, but okay. It is indeed a bit interesting that you are claiming I'm "shielding" myself from anything if you are the one who doesn't answer a single question without providing examples of where and how exactly your favourites were treated unfairly. I have brought Zhenya just to show that all skaters in the Russian team get criticism on a regular basis. Because they are good, because they are winning, whatever.

But here we are, discussing Zhenya's "inappropriate" program. Well, then, shortly, if you are seriously suggesting Zhenya and Orser didn't get criticism for everything last season in this thread, I'm sorry but you might have to read that again. People were going on and on about how this switch was a mistake, how the programs were bad, how she'd lost her consistency because of him.... Some things were too harsh, some I agreed with. I absolutely think the SP was too early and that they wanted too many changes at the same time and lost perspective of what one person at 19 can do in such a short period of time, even if she seems somehow invincible (surprise, she was not). I have criticized Orser, just like any coach, for many things in the past and I see no point listing them now. You obviously want to see only your reality and that is that Tutberidze's skaters somehow always are the ones being attacked by "certain camps who have their sympathies elsewhere" when this is not, or very rarely the case.

Everyone gets criticism in here, everyone is sometimes criticized too harshly. But no way is there some sort of big evil camp that only shoots against Tutberidze because they have nothing else to do. There are a few people, just like there are for everyone else but you can report them.

Fluture said:

See, you did not answer my question. It was a rather simple one, actually. Does the criticism I offered fit into what you perceive as "normal" criticism? Yes or no? And again, I'm not talking about this one comment you seem to love so much ("Aliona's getting this bad FS because she's not the darling of the team") because I don't exactly agree with that either.

It doesn't matter who started the discussion and I did not want to persuade you or anyone to not like the music choice either, why would I. I answered to your comment to point out that maybe the criticism against Aliona's FS might have been, in some ways, correct, even if it did work out in the end.




I'm sorry but maybe we should stop this discussion here because it's very clear that you have not read my post at all. I said very clearly that I like this particular style but only when it's done well. Maybe you should read that again because this is a very obvious difference from what you're claiming here.

And I have no problem at all sounding as if I swallowed the dictionary of figure skating terms. You see, this might be because I have read the rules. And yes, there are some and yes, in theory, the judges should follow them. So, in short words and without using any of those terms: I was merely pointing out to you that my criticism of Alina's program is in some cases not just my particular opinion but something the judges have in their own rulebooks. And if some things are rewarded, e.g. gets 237 as a score like you love to point out, then this does not mean that it is always entirely correct. Because, in fact, in some cases she should get lower scores for not following the rules. I know you don't want to read them, that's fine, but then don't act as if there weren't any. That's as if I was running around claiming Zhenya's flutz is a technically correct jump just because the judges don't punish it and I like the way it looks.



I'm not shielding myself from anything, I'm merely tired of these posts where it's constantly cried about how Tutberidze's skaters always get criticized so unfairly when in fact, this is not the case and it happens to everyone. That's what I wanted to say.

(Programs) discussions happen to everyone. Sofia ("she only has consistency, nothing special, would never win without mistakes from others, boring skater" - harsh and unnecessary criticism) or Mishin's team as a whole ("their programs are empty and have no transitions and should therefore get low PCS scores" - appropriate criticism) So, tell me how Alina ("sometimes she doesn't finish her moves and should therefore get small deductions in her PCS score") or Aliona ("I think Twilight music isn't the best for her, it's a bit too immature and her skating is more sophisticated") is so bad? People are just talking, there are very rarely evil intentions behind that.

I frankly have no idea what Zhenya's SP has anything to do with it, but okay. It is indeed a bit interesting that you are claiming I'm "shielding" myself from anything if you are the one who doesn't answer a single question without providing examples of where and how exactly your favourites were treated unfairly. I have brought Zhenya just to show that all skaters in the Russian team get criticism on a regular basis. Because they are good, because they are winning, whatever.

But here we are, discussing Zhenya's "inappropriate" program. Well, then, shortly, if you are seriously suggesting Zhenya and Orser didn't get criticism for everything last season in this thread, I'm sorry but you might have to read that again. People were going on and on about how this switch was a mistake, how the programs were bad, how she'd lost her consistency because of him.... Some things were too harsh, some I agreed with. I absolutely think the SP was too early and that they wanted too many changes at the same time and lost perspective of what one person at 19 can do in such a short period of time, even if she seems somehow invincible (surprise, she was not). I have criticized Orser, just like any coach, for many things in the past and I see no point listing them now. You obviously want to see only your reality and that is that Tutberidze's skaters somehow always are the ones being attacked by "certain camps who have their sympathies elsewhere" when this is not, or very rarely the case.

Everyone gets criticism in here, everyone is sometimes criticized too harshly. But no way is there some sort of big evil camp that only shoots against Tutberidze because they have nothing else to do. There are a few people, just like there are for everyone else but you can report them.

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The thing is you are one of the biggest fans of the eteri girls as a whole even though you don't like EG anymore.

Scott512 said:

The thing is you are one of the biggest fans of the eteri girls as a whole even though you don't like EG anymore.

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It‘s not about disliking or liking Eteri. I disagree with many things she does and says, yes, and I‘m not afraid to say so. However, I also think that she does many things right, mainly, that she is clever enough to know the system and how to gain advantage from it and makes sure that her girls are winning a lot in a short amount of time. Is that disliking her? Maybe so. I frankly don‘t know.

It‘s right, though, that I am a fan of Eteri‘s girls. I like Aliona (btw, it confuses me to no end having to write Aliona now instead of Alena after she changed her name on Instagram. ). Her and Kanysheva are my favourites. I like Alina, too, even if I might not be as much of a hardcore fan as I was shortly after the Olympic Games. I criticize her scores sometimes but then again, I‘m probably the biggest Zhenya fan and I also thought her scores (not her wins, those were entirely deserved) were out of proportion.

But if one was bored enough to search my post history here, they‘d find that about 90% were made about Russian ladies. Because I like them, because one of them introduced me to this sport. And, surprisingly enough, because I like their skating style.

If I could afford to put as much thought and time into something as some seem to be able to into writing responses on this thread, I'd probably direct my attention towards curing cancer or discovering truths about the universe we live in, but well.

Switching topics, less than 1 month until junior test skates! I wonder if/when we will get any new program announcements for any of the returning and new junior ladies.

Fluture said:

It‘s not about disliking or liking Eteri. I disagree with many things she does and says, yes, and I‘m not afraid to say so. However, I also think that she does many things right, mainly, that she is clever enough to know the system and how to gain advantage from it and makes sure that her girls are winning a lot in a short amount of time. Is that disliking her? Maybe so. I frankly don‘t know.

It‘s right, though, that I am a fan of Eteri‘s girls. I like Aliona (btw, it confuses me to no end having to write Aliona now instead of Alena after she changed her name on Instagram. ). Her and Kanysheva are my favourites. I like Alina, too, even if I might not be as much of a hardcore fan as I was shortly after the Olympic Games. I criticize her scores sometimes but then again, I‘m probably the biggest Zhenya fan and I also thought her scores (not her wins, those were entirely deserved) were out of proportion.

But if one was bored enough to search my post history here, they‘d find that about 90% were made about Russian ladies. Because I like them, because one of them introduced me to this sport. And, surprisingly enough, because I like their skating style.

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I have always thought you were pretty fair fan all the way around. While it was kind of sad you turned away from Alina after the Olympics it's fairly normal because flanker did the same thing with Evgenia after the Olympics. Things are always changing for the fans of figure skaters.

platypus said:

If I could afford to put as much thought and time into something as some seem to be able to into writing responses on this thread, I'd probably direct my attention towards curing cancer or discovering truths about the universe we live in, but well.

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Well as someone in medicine who loves figure skating, why can't I do both?

Clearly this is a discussion thread about something we all love, we want to understand it more, we want to talk about our favorite skaters and talk about what makes them great, not so great. If there's no discussion about different points of views then as fans we all begin to stagnate and we become accustomed to thinking that what we know and understand is automatically and irrevocably correct, when it is not the case. If we're not discussing, on this discussion forum, then what on earth is this thread for may I ask? Is being passionate about the aspects of figure skating to be frowned upon? Is keeping ourselves informed to be dismayed?

Perhaps if one put thought and time into something you love and are passionate about, like...writing responses on this thread, then perhaps that's what makes them capable of carrying that same passion for the things they love even outside of figure skating. Think about it.

laybackrelaxspinfast said:

Edit:
Why haven’t they chosen Bella’s Lullaby? Now that’s a beautiful piece of music from Twilight that they should be using.

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i'm hoping they include this in the new music cut, since it will be lengthened. it really is a beautiful piece, and Aliona would skate to it perfectly. I hope we will all be pleasantly surprised with whatever they come up with.

monochrom3 said:

I think the point that flanker is trying to make...

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Thank you. Somebody else was able to point most of my conclusions better than myself

macy said:

i'm hoping they include this in the new music cut, since it will be lengthened. it really is a beautiful piece, and Aliona would skate to it perfectly. I hope we will all be pleasantly surprised with whatever they come up with.

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Let’s keep our fingers crossed! She would really suit that piece of music, with her soft elegant skating!
Also thank you for trying to get this forum back on track.

Again, I think some have got a little heated and I agree with other posters we are definitely exiting the realm of Russian ladies figure skating.

On a separate note, who does everyone think will be choreographing Evgenia’s free skate? Still no word on that yet, lots of speculation in her FF but I want to know some outside opinions too! Maybe someone we haven’t thought up yet?

SkateSkates said:

Switching topics, less than 1 month until junior test skates! I wonder if/when we will get any new program announcements for any of the returning and new junior ladies.

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There was an insta story from Anastasia Tarakanova which looks like she will be having a bond short program though it isn’t confirmed and she recently again did an interview so we might find out more then. Also Sinitsyna went to the US to train at Raf’s for a week so I wonder if she got some choreo touched/done by his wife like Kanysheva did last year and I think clips of her and Frolova’s programs are on the choreographers instagram.

SkySkater said:

There was an insta story from Anastasia Tarakanova which looks like she will be having a bond short program though it isn’t confirmed and she recently again did an interview so we might find out more then. Also Sinitsyna went to the US to train at Raf’s for a week so I wonder if she got some choreo touched/done by his wife like Kanysheva did last year and I think clips of her and Frolova’s programs are on the choreographers instagram.

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Yes team panova has been teasing us with clips of choreo but not music selections! At least we know they are getting new programs. Very interested to see what Ksenia gets for the new season since she had her previous programs for 2 seasons.

SkySkater said:

There was an insta story from Anastasia Tarakanova which looks like she will be having a bond short program though it isn’t confirmed.

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That’s exciting news! Do you have a link? I do love Tarakanova’s skating and imagine a bond program would be well suited to her powerful presence on the ice! It’s just a bit of a shame that she won’t be going senior this season. But it might do her some good to hold out and come in at the right moment to make her big senior entrance. Less over shadowing from other big names perhaps in years to come.

Scott512 said:

I have always thought you were pretty fair fan all the way around. While it was kind of sad you turned away from Alina after the Olympics it's fairly normal because flanker did the same thing with Evgenia after the Olympics. Things are always changing for the fans of figure skaters.

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I know this really doesn't mean anything and it's kind of unncessecary anyway but I just wanted to say that I did not "turn away" from Alina after the OG. This term makes it sound much worse than it is. As if something happened that made me stop liking her. Which is not true. I still like her a lot (there is a reason why I became a fan in the first place) and when I watch her skate I still have my fingers crossed that everything will turn out alright for her and I'm happy when she's happy. It's just that I'm not as much of a hardcore fan like I am for Zhenya and Aliona where I'm so ridiculously nervous watching them that I always worry and can't even properly pay attention. Which is probably just self-defense. It was already hard during the Olympics with "my" Russian girls and when Aliona came along with that beautiful skating of hers, she just stole the show. You're right, though, it happens. Just felt the strange need to clarify this here.

But now onto different topics:

SkySkater said:

There was an insta story from Anastasia Tarakanova which looks like she will be having a bond short program though it isn’t confirmed and she recently again did an interview so we might find out more then. Also Sinitsyna went to the US to train at Raf’s for a week so I wonder if she got some choreo touched/done by his wife like Kanysheva did last year and I think clips of her and Frolova’s programs are on the choreographers instagram.

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That's exciting news! Nastya is definitely a girl I could imagine skating to a bond program. She has amazing presence and power on the ice. I'm also happy for Sinitsyna. I really loved Kanysheva's programs last season and thought they were well choreographed and very detailed. This might explain why! Sinitsyna is a talented skater and her jumps, spins and skating skills are all so beautiful so I hope she gets some programs that really fit her. I don't know much about Frolova, I think I saw her at Junior Nationals but she didn't really stand out to me. Hopefully that will change once she gets a JGP event this season (is she likely to get one?) and gets the chance to compete internationally. Also, could you maybe share the clips of their programs? Or tell us the name of the choreographer because I'm interested to see them. That would be nice.

I also wonder what Kamila will get for her FS. Last season, her SP completely and utterly overshadowed the FS, in my opinion. I can't even properly remember what it was about (sorry) because I only have that masterpiece of a SP in mind. I'm so happy she's likely to keep it and just hope they somehow manage to give her something equally as great for the FS.

laybackrelaxspinfast said:

That’s exciting news! Do you have a link? I do love Tarakanova’s skating and imagine a bond program would be well suited to her powerful presence on the ice! It’s just a bit of a shame that she won’t be going senior this season. But it might do her some good to hold out and come in at the right moment to make her big senior entrance. Less over shadowing from other big names perhaps in years to come.

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Tarakanova has all the basics to become amazing. She just needs to understand music and choreography and restraint. She doesn't have to move her arms every five seconds for 'choreography', especially when it has nothing to do with the music or program. Hopefully Panova can help her with that.