Ladies and the triple Axel | Page 9 | Golden Skate

Ladies and the triple Axel

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
I love 3As so much. It is great to be able to see so many of them. So far my two favorites this season are Rika's in the SP at ACI and Alena's 3A+2T. My two favorite skaters landing my favorite jump. It is all I can ask for. (well, that and both of them being on world's podium this year... please, pretty please)
 

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
I love 3As so much. It is great to be able to see so many of them. So far my two favorites this season are Rika's in the SP at ACI and Alena's 3A+2T. My two favorite skaters landing my favorite jump. It is all I can ask for. (well, that and both of them being on world's podium this year... please, pretty please)

I see based on GOE ( info from skating scores) that those are the two highest ranked 3As this season. So, the judges agree with me . 🤣🤣🤣
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
I see based on GOE ( info from skating scores) that those are the two highest ranked 3As this season. So, the judges agree with me . ������

And what about their trajectory? Length and height? That first triksel right in front of the camera, it soared because of the maximum speed entry and like Ted said "speed is your friend", the second was equally spectacular and we got to see it side on for its full flight, both were awesome.

The second phase of the program is ideal for clapping along, and Alyona got the audience going, she absorbed its energy for her remaining jumps, some quirky and fun steps, transitions and spins and started to 'play', for there is no other word for this. Totally convincing and superior skating run in every of its aspects.
 

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
And what about their trajectory? Length and height? That first triksel right in front of the camera, it soared because of the maximum speed entry and like Ted said "speed is your friend", the second was equally spectacular and we got to see it side on for its full flight, both were awesome..

I mean we don't have that information. I would like to know. But, I have to say the second 3A that Aliona performed was UR and not nearly as good as her first. So, I don't think it was the same quality.

I don't like Aliona's program (especially the end) but her elements are amazing. She has amazing speed across the ice. She is a special skater.
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Liza is the 2nd lady to land three cleans 3As in an international competition. The first was Mao Asada.
 

eppen

Medalist
Joined
Mar 28, 2006
Country
Spain
Just got back from Espoo and am still thrilled about the ladies comp at Finlandia Trophy. Seeing four 3As in the space of 10 minutes in the ladies is a new experience for me! Kudos to Liza and Alena for their achievement!

Liza's jumps have a certain ease to them these days, but they are fairly low, short and excecuted from slow speed with a long simple glide. They are also almost a segment of their own in the program after which the actual choreo starts.

Alena does hers with stunning speed, straight from steps, the height and length of both jumps were just amazing. They are also a seamless part of the program. For a first try, it was truly a glorious result! How many other skaters are able to insert two new elements effortlessly into their competition programs?? I cannot think of anyone else really... The fact that the second one (which was done to the corner further from my seat) was UR, feels of little importance here.

E
 

medoroa

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
What Trusova and Kostornaia's outings this season has shown seems to be that Tutuberidze has switched out "girls who can do quads because they're short and light" with "girls who can do quads and 3A because they're muscular without adding bulk", which makes sense since that's also the body type of the top male jumpers. There's also an added bonus of muscles holding back vertical growth, like in gymnastics.

What it means on the health and longevity side, I'm not quite sure.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
What Trusova and Kostornaia's outings this season has shown seems to be that Tutuberidze has switched out "girls who can do quads because they're short and light" with "girls who can do quads and 3A because they're muscular without adding bulk", which makes sense since that's also the body type of the top male jumpers. There's also an added bonus of muscles holding back vertical growth, like in gymnastics.

What it means on the health and longevity side, I'm not quite sure.

You need to be an athlete with excellent leg and core and shoulder strength to do both quads or triksels.
Being strong helps you staying safe and healthy in these high performance elements. See Trusova working out doing chin ups in PE, shoulders and arms propel her too in those quads.

Long term effects? Nobody knows yet?? The population of trikselistas and quadsters is simply too small and the sample period too short.
Are there even equivalent statistics on male skaters available?
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Alyona’s triple in combo: I guesstimate at >4 meters of flight and 50-60 cms of height. Alyona is quite small, the ice right camera looks her straight in the eyes and stays at that level following her around. She really kicks into the lift and her torso soars half above the height of the top rail of that blue railing.

I’d very much like to have a true Axelcam capture of it.
 

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
What Trusova and Kostornaia's outings this season has shown seems to be that Tutuberidze has switched out "girls who can do quads because they're short and light" with "girls who can do quads and 3A because they're muscular without adding bulk", which makes sense since that's also the body type of the top male jumpers. There's also an added bonus of muscles holding back vertical growth, like in gymnastics.

What it means on the health and longevity side, I'm not quite sure.

Having *lean* muscles would probably help with injury prevention, both because skaters are stronger and better able to absorb impact, and because the impact is less.

I guess it's all about the strength-to-weight ratio: if you only try to reduce the weight aspect, there's only so much weight you can lose before stuff like stress fractures/osteoporosis/muscle wastage occurs. And if you try to get strong but gain muscle in a bulky way (perhaps due to mis-training muscles and not stretching enough) these muscles might get tight or imbalanced, decreasing the power output per unit volume. Of course the optimum combination of muscles and weight might vary with individuals due to other physical parameters. e.g. girls with naturally denser bones would need more muscle, as they can't lose the weight that is their bones! (And to try would be terrible for their health)

I'm very interested to know what sort of off-ice conditioning Trusova and Kostornaia follow! Perhaps a lot of Pilates...

Sorry for sounding a bit nerdy :laugh:

On another note, is it just me or do the triple axel ladies have relatively long arms and a higher shoulder-waist ratio? I was looking at Tuktamysheva, Kihira and Kostornaia in particular. In contrast Trusova's torso is more linear from shoulder to hips and her arms are not obviously long (but not short). I am wondering if in the axel, the arms play a more prominent role in generating height and angular momentum, so it's advantageous to have a larger 'wingspan'. On the men's side Yuzuru Hanyu's arms seem proportionally longer than Nathan Chen's.
 

medoroa

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
You need to be an athlete with excellent leg and core and shoulder strength to do both quads or triksels.
Being strong helps you staying safe and healthy in these high performance elements. See Trusova working out doing chin ups in PE, shoulders and arms propel her too in those quads.

Yes, obviously. But not so much bulk that you become too heavy with muscles. (Joubert was on a constant diet so he wouldn't gain muscle mass, for example, and what has pushed some male skaters to eating disorders was not fatty tissue.)
 

AshWagsFan

Edges for days.
Final Flight
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Country
United-States
Is Satoko training the triple axel? I know she’s with Lee Barkell for Jumps now but I think the triple axels a bit much for her at the moment...
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019

Not nerdy at all, most welcome contribution rather.

I’m on my phone now and cannot open another window but I’ve interpreted an excellent article by Aleksey Zheleznyakov who is in charge over PE and dance at Khrustalniy. I’ll try to post a proper link later when home. Z. trains and conditions skaters through dance, apart from the usual stretching and gymnastics kind of exercises. Well worth reading, here it the link: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...ridze-Effect&p=2435774&viewfull=1#post2435774

Triksels and quads are complicated in biomechanics and Newtonian physics, and so rare still they are not properly studied yet?

Arms are both propellers and provide additional leverage and lift, like in sprinters up to 400 meters. More muscles, more power but the extra weight isn’t a disadvantage yet. Male skaters are preferably of the short and solid build, but those of Caucasian descent are visibly bulkier than Asians and perhaps 5-10 kgs heavier?

The female population doing these elements is so small there is no statistical evidence yet. Tursynbaeva, Shcherbakova, Trusova are all small and slender. Tursynbayeva and Shcherbakova even slight of build.
Valiyeva, Akat’yeva are much younger. More solidly build women are capable of triksels, but haven’t repeatedly competed quads yet. Liu is small and reasonably solid, her ultra-si has less amplitude relatively, probably because she is trained differently and she isn't as fast on the ice, converting less speed in height and flight?
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Triksels and quads are complicated in biomechanics and Newtonian physics, and so rare still they are not properly studied yet?

A few studies on biomechanics, focusing on male skaters for these difficult jumps:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...anics_of_the_Axel_Paulsen_Figure_Skating_Jump

https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/view/1695

https://www.usfsa.org/Content/BiomechanicsII-Analysis of Movement.pdf

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1a22/dd79245560a7d7139dc75875d36ec82bebcf.pdf

Alexei Mishin had published a few books on figure skating jumps and biomechanics in the 1970s, before triple axels became common (or successfully executed at all) in the men's event, let alone quads. But he has certainly been an expert in the development of these jumps with his students since then.
 

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
Z. trains and conditions skaters through dance, apart from the usual stretching and gymnastics kind of exercises. Well worth reading, here it the link: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...ridze-Effect&p=2435774&viewfull=1#post2435774

The section about folk dance as conditioning for figure skating made me think of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVN9als2atU

These Mariinsky dancers are practicing a variation from Swan Lake. Interestingly Sarafanov (slim guy in orange) came from a family of Ukrainian folk dancers and later switched to ballet. I haven't seen any other ballet dancer do consecutive double tours en l'air as effortlessly as him, so maybe the folk dance helped.
 

IndiaP12

iliabot wakabot gumennikbot team korea stan
Final Flight
Joined
Apr 29, 2018
Country
New-Zealand
Anna's 3A on harness looks quite promising. Sergey wasn't lifting her much at all. I've noticed lots of improvement in her 2A so I was wondering if she was training it. I hope we get to see this landed by itself soon! Same with her 4T
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I wonder if skaters like Trusova and quadsters without 3A will work on the 3A knowing that it is worth like six or more points in the short program
 

IndiaP12

iliabot wakabot gumennikbot team korea stan
Final Flight
Joined
Apr 29, 2018
Country
New-Zealand
I wonder if skaters like Trusova and quadsters without 3A will work on the 3A knowing that it is worth like six or more points in the short program

Both Anna and Sasha are
 
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