- Joined
- Nov 12, 2011
it seems so, or whether it should be credited as a "real" flip or lutz. if you find ISU jump instruction videos or definitions of what the jumps are (i believe i have quoted USFSA before, but don't want to go digging again), you won't find anything about full blade assist or prerotation. people are looking into it way, way too deep and scrutinizing every single millisecond of a jump, when they forget judges judge in real time.
ok i lied, i had to find another post of mine since i basically started re-writing it here.
"ok, here is some clarification on this "full blade takeoff" and "prerotation" stuff...i think some of us are taking it a little too literally.
from the USFSA website on definitions of flips and lutzes-
FLIP JUMP - A toe-pick-assisted jump taken off from the back inside edge of one foot and landed on the back outside edge of the opposite foot.
LUTZ JUMP - A toe-pick-assisted jump taken off from a back outside edge and landed on the back outside edge of the opposite foot. The skater glides backward on a wide curve, taps his toe pick into the ice, and rotates in the opposite direction of the curve. The jump is named for its inventor, Alois Lutz.
https://www.usfsa.org/story?id=83964...ureskatingatoz
so let's break this down...in the eyes of the judges, a toe pick assisted jump only means using your pick on the correct foot to do the jump. it literally means putting your toe in the ice and that is it- which is what every single skater does when performing these jumps. it does not specify staying high on your pick all the way through the take off- there is a shift of weight required to get in the air, meaning not everyone stays as high up like a select few, like Yuna. it does not mean one skater has bad technique over the other, or one is wrong, nor does it matter with gaining or losing GOE. the only thing that matters whether it's called a flip or lutz are the takeoff and landing edges and whether or not your pick was in the ice.
note there is no definition of "full blade takeoff/assist" or prerotation, because they are made up terms.
from the ISU website on a cheated takeoff-
A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences).
https://isu.org/figure-skating/rules...s-2018-19/file
the first part literally means very obviously taking off backwards when going into an axel, such as somehow whipping your blade around backwards before getting into the air. it simply wouldn't be something you could get away with, and i have never seen *anyone* do this in the 20 years i've been involved in the sport, anywhere.
a toe loop with a cheated takeoff, or a toe-axel, is commonly seen at the lower levels due to incorrect teaching of the jump. this is when the skater literally turns forward with their entire body, picks facing forward, and then jumps, hence the "axel" part. in a toe loop, it's literally a toe assisted loop jump. you pick backwards, and the non-picking foot follows through on an outside edge, hence the "loop." again, you *can't* get away with doing a toe axel in high level competition because it is something so obvious you can see it even if sped up.
people are taking all of this way, way too literally, when these definitions are the only things the ISU and judging system use when looking at whether a jump is a jump."
now hopefully back to the lovely Russian ladies
topic: Her name is actually Alysa, not Alice. It's not the same name, so just calling her Alice can be confusing. It took me a minute to figure out who you meant. 
