2015 US Nationals Senior Ladies FS Jan 24

[Layfan]

How can you say Ashley doesn't know what she's up against internationally when she spent her entire GP season getting beaten by Russian teenagers? Ashley flat-out said in her press conference that her GP season was so-so and she "wasn't giving anyone a reason to take [her] seriously." She's worked hard to fix her flutz and gotten it down to an unclear edge, which is pretty impressive considering she's been doing the jump incorrectly for a decade now. And she's added two brand-new (for her) triple-triples to her FS, and upped the technical content in her SP as well. How is this not improving?

I totally agree. No way Ashley doesn't realize that she has her work cut out for her internationally. Come on people. She's been to enough international competitions to know how she is judged - one ridiculously inflated score at nationals isn't going to change that. It's laughable to to say the "American girls have no idea what the are up against internationally." And Ashley has most definitely pushed herself both technically and artistically. What do people think? That Ashley is going to transform herself into Yuna Kim one day?

Frankly, I think the American girls ARE getting better technically - and Ashley saw that and pushed herself. I don't know if she's going to breakthrough internationally but I've seen people medal at worlds with far worse choreo, that is for sure.

 

[Mrs. P]

Guys all you have to do is watch Ashley circa 2008, 2010 and even 2012 when she won her first title. She had improved greatly in the last few years, not just technically but in her carriage and presentation. It's sad people can't sit back and acknowledge that.

Also this is probably the first time she was leading and did not crumble under pressure or was so far behind she had to make a massive comeback, see 2009. I think that is a pretty significant shift in the matter of things.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Remember Ashley is the only US lady in the history that won US National title back to back.

No she isn't. That doesn't mean anything with regards to this competition to begin with. Plus she was held up in 2013 to win that title. Could have placed down in 4th if the judges wanted to. They just didn't, at that time. The judges use skaters as tools.

Guys all you have to do is watch Ashley circa 2008, 2010 and even 2012 when she won her first title. She had improved greatly in the last few years, not just technically but in her carriage and presentation. It's sad people can't sit back and acknowledge that.

Ashley was doing 3Lutz+3Loop in 2008 and presented her program better in 2012.

 

[Enidan]

I assume you didn't watch Kwan back in those days.

Yes, I did watch her, but you can't compare her to Wagner is a different level of skater. Michelle never able to win national title under this system where you have to do difficult jumps, spin, and footwork. Michelle can't do it. Her best effort is place 4th place which is off the podium.

 

[kimganos]

I agree she is special skater but I'm not sure if she is the first to win 3 us titles...Didn't Michelle Kwan win more? Or some lady before Michelle?

There are several others before Michelle Kwan, Dorothy Hamilton, Linda Fratienne, Rosilyn Summers, Maribel Vinson
To name a few. Ashley Wagner is the first one since Michelle Kwan to do so. See Medalists on US Figureskating Championships Wikipedia.

 

[jenaj]

There are several others before Michelle Kwan, Dorothy Hamilton, Linda Fratienne, Rosilyn Summers, Maribel Vinson
To name a few. Ashley Wagner is the first one since Michelle Kwan to do so. See Medalists on US Figureskating Championships Wikipedia.

She is the first since Michelle Kwan. Many others have won 3+. Janet Lynn won 5 in a row.

 

[Mrs. P]

No she isn't. That doesn't mean anything with regards to this competition to begin with. Plus she was held up in 2013 to win that title. Could have placed down in 4th if the judges wanted to. They just didn't, at that time. The judges use skaters as tools.





Ashley was doing 3Lutz+3Loop in 2008 and presented her program better in 2012.

It was a 3flutz and under rotated. That's why she didn't do it after that season. And I love the choreo in that Black Swan program, but for me what made this year special is the command she had on the program.

Ymmv, but I'm willing to give Ashley credit.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

You collect and post dozens of statistics on the daily and you don't see a point in actually analyzing performances based upon how they should be objectively scored?

You seem to disagree with the judging panels when your favorite doesn't win. Throwing a bunch of 7's and 8's out there and criticizing rotation when most (non fans of you-know-who) see that the jumps are rotated enough isn't "analysis", it's just knocking a skater down that you don't think should score within 20 points of your favorite skater.

 

[jenaj]

Yes, I did watch her, but you can't compare her to Wagner is a different level of skater. Michelle never able to win national title under this system where you have to do difficult jumps, spin, and footwork. Michelle can't do it. Her best effort is place 4th place which is off the podium.

Michelle only competed once in an early version of this system, at the very end of her career. I'm sure she would have done very well if she had grown up in the system or had a chance to compete in it for many years, like Ashley did. And her PCS would have been in Carolina Kostner circa 2014 territory.

 

[Enidan]

You seem to disagree with the judging panels when your favorite doesn't win. Throwing a bunch of 7's and 8's out there and criticizing rotation when most (non fans of you-know-who) see that the jumps are rotated enough isn't "analysis", it's just knocking a skater down that you don't think should score within 20 points of your favorite skater.

LOL, just bear with him. his jealous should earn 150+ point hahaha

 

[jenaj]

Guys all you have to do is watch Ashley circa 2008, 2010 and even 2012 when she won her first title. She had improved greatly in the last few years, not just technically but in her carriage and presentation. It's sad people can't sit back and acknowledge that.

Also this is probably the first time she was leading and did not crumble under pressure or was so far behind she had to make a massive comeback, see 2009. I think that is a pretty significant shift in the matter of things.

Ashley was a very mediocre skater early in her career. I couldn't believe she thought she was a contender for the Olympic team in 2010. The change to Nicks and Mills transformed her and she built on it. It's quite an achievement and has made me a fan.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It was a 3flutz and under rotated.

No it wasn't underrotated. Watch her 2008 Nationals SP. It was CLEAN and even a transition going in. It's not on youtube but I'll give you a link if you'd like.

It's ridiculous to say that was underrotated but then look at her 3Sal in combo this season and say it is around. No. Just no.

You seem to disagree with the judging panels when your favorite doesn't win.

Nope, try again. Ashley *was* my favorite at this competition.

 

[emma]

Guys all you have to do is watch Ashley circa 2008, 2010 and even 2012 when she won her first title. She had improved greatly in the last few years, not just technically but in her carriage and presentation. It's sad people can't sit back and acknowledge that.

Also this is probably the first time she was leading and did not crumble under pressure or was so far behind she had to make a massive comeback, see 2009. I think that is a pretty significant shift in the matter of things.

Couldn't agree more and also, I love your stats, Mrs. P!

Yes, I did watch her, but you can't compare her to Wagner is a different level of skater. Michelle never able to win national title under this system where you have to do difficult jumps, spin, and footwork. Michelle can't do it. Her best effort is place 4th place which is off the podium.

Sadly, we will never know what Michelle really could have done in/with this system as she was at end of her career when she first had to learn it and dealing with injury (and let's not forget all tweaks to the judging system in those first years, well maybe every year ). anyway, I don't think it easy to compare these two skaters for a lot, a very lot of reasons, but I've said before I see shades of Michelle in Ashley, and last night, that command and confidence she had - and a sort of bigger than life, fill the whole arena feeling she gave me, also reminded me of Michelle. It felt good, to me.

It was a 3flutz and under rotated. That's why she didn't do it after that season. And I love the choreo in that Black Swan program, but for me what made this year special is the command she had on the program.

Ymmv, but I'm willing to give Ashley credit.

I love it, love it a lot, when a skater keeps pushing theirself to grow and improve. I remember being so impressed by Rochette's reworking of her lutz, and now I can say that my hat is off to Ashely for trying and I hope it just gets better and better.

 

[Mrs. P]

We will just have to agree to disagre BOP. Since you have attended an ISU training seminar and done a through analysis of her program, you're welcome to meet with her at the East West Ice Palace and give your expert analysis.

 

[jenaj]

LOL? You collect and post dozens of statistics on the daily and you don't see a point in actually analyzing performances based upon how they should be objectively scored?



No they aren't. If Patrick Chan's skating skills at his best are a '10', then Ashley Wagner's are an 8 in this performance.

I think I said she deserved around an 8 in SS, didn't I? And comparing her to Chan, a male skater?? In any event, it's not supposed to be a comparison or ranking but if it was, I don't think judges would be asked to compare ladies skaters to men.

 

[LiamForeman]

Yes I'm SURE.

I'm not sure how long you've been following skating, nor do I know if you are just being sarcastic, but the commentators did say something about winning back to back and three titles that might have been misleading. Ashley is the only person in the last TEN years to accomplish these feats. Kwan won eight nationals in a row from 98 to 05. Trenary won back to back 89-90 and three 87. Then from Fratianne and earlier the national champ pretty much had a lock on four consecutive national titles.

 

[BlackPack]

How can you say Ashley doesn't know what she's up against internationally when she spent her entire GP season getting beaten by Russian teenagers? Ashley flat-out said in her press conference that her GP season was so-so and she "wasn't giving anyone a reason to take [her] seriously." She's worked hard to fix her flutz and gotten it down to an unclear edge, which is pretty impressive considering she's been doing the jump incorrectly for a decade now. And she's added two brand-new (for her) triple-triples to her FS, and upped the technical content in her SP as well. How is this not improving?

I was referring to American ladies in general. Gracie is at a plateau. Polina seems to be regressing. In Ashley's case, her best program is Samson and Delilah, but it was still a rather empty program. Moulin Rouge is even emptier. I don't think she's improved choreographically. Technically, she's delivered a clean performance but surely the international judges are going to slam her for UR and edge calls. Minor improvements are great, but still not enough to get rid of the problem. In this field, it's not good enough. She may still edge for a World bronze and I hope she does.

Even before the IJS, fans were always very harsh about UR, flutzing, lipping, etc. The consensus was that the technique is not sound. So we're applauding and even apologizing for poor techniques especially with world-class training and coaches? People congratulate for lesser poor technique instead of emphasizing good technique.

 

[aftertherain]

I'm not sure how long you've been following skating, nor do I know if you are just being sarcastic, but the commentators did say something about winning back to back and three titles that might have been misleading. Ashley is the only person in the last TEN years to accomplish these feats. Kwan won eight nationals in a row from 98 to 05. Trenary won back to back 89-90 and three 87. Then from Fratianne and earlier the national champ pretty much had a lock on four consecutive national titles.

Considering that person just pretty much said MK wasn't worthy of being compared to Ashley because MK wouldn't make it under CoP, I wouldn't take their posts seriously.

I hate those arguments. Different era, different requirements. Of course Janet Lynn wouldn't have made it during the MK era, but if she had grown up under it, who knows what her skating could have been like?

 

[OS]

I really appreciate independent opinions like BoP to keep things REAL. It is important to be realistic with oneself than getting lost in the self delusion of grandeur most of these National Championships insist on inflation their own egos, boost their nationalist pride, injecting ridiculous amount of phantasy component scores adrenaline heavy rattle ISU to comply. There are reasons why drugs are bad for you. Extreme highs comes with extreme hung overs when one have to face the real world.

Insanity aside, that was one of the best US Nationals ladies finals in recent memory. I think I enjoyed Ashley's program more than from any Russian ladies all season. Yes it is brassy, brazy, crassy, but it is Moulin rouge!!!... so why not! And I wasn't entirely tongue in cheek when I compare Wagner to Meryl Streep early in the season. In absent of Yuna, Mao, Carolina, Akikos, Alissa, consider the current level of youngsters over dramatics, Wagner's standard of presentation is practically Meryl Streep level and she OWNed every wink, eye brow twinkle, seduction come hither in that program.

BTW has Gracie's Selfie been posted? Happy girls all around!

http://instagram.com/p/yRxIrVCryW/

 

[LiamForeman]

Ashley was a very mediocre skater early in her career. I couldn't believe she thought she was a contender for the Olympic team in 2010. The change to Nicks and Mills transformed her and she built on it. It's quite an achievement and has made me a fan.

My feelings exactly. However, she was only one landed 3lutz away from making 2010 Olympic team based on the scores. But her skating was generic, busy for no discernible reason and had no point of view. Her switch to Nicks and Mills jump started her failing career. I really respect her for making that move. Otherwise she'd probably still be around in her mid 20s with the same stale coach skating exactly the same she skated as an 18 y/o with no discernible improvement, like Tonia Kwiatkowski back in the day. The fact that she recognized all of her major weaknesses and worked her butt off to improve deserves respect.