2015 Mordovian Ornament Ladies SP and Free Skate

[jenaj]

No, because the 6.0 would just rank the skaters in the specific competition - so Adelina would lets say get 5.9 and Anna would get 6.0: this would mean Anna was the best, and Adelina second best on this specific event. Kinda like medaling: a gold medal is a gold medal, but one thing is Mordovian Ornament´s gold, and another, a Worlds gold, for example. But both are gold medals. So, as long as the skaters were ordered fairly, the actual numerals they got doesnt matter that much (kinda like WTT, if you are second there, you are second, doesnt matter if it was a 0.20 or a 20 points difference)

Now COP scores are supposed to be comparable between events, and a 200 at Mordovian Ornament is expected to be same as 200 at Worlds, and this is why people are annoyed by inflation.

Anna would never have gotten 6.0 for that skate. She might get some 5.9s on tech, but probably not all or even most. On the second mark, she would get lower marks--5.6s, 5.7s, maybe some even lower. Adelina would probably get in the low 5's for her tech, but higher on the second mark--enough to put her over Anna on presentation, so maybe 5.7s. Anna would rank first overall, based on her much higher tech marks. The ranking was done within the marks that best represented the performance after deductions, not by giving the best skater the highest possible mark.

 

[jenaj]

There's no point in trying to downplay this imo
People are upset for a reason and something should be done,

I mean if challenger series competitions can be scored like this then maybe they shouldn't count as official anymore

It is a fiction, really, that scores can be compared across competitions. Some judges are stingier than others and there is always the home court factor. If people really want scores that can be compared from one competition to the next, there should no scoring for GOE or PCS. The tech score only should count. Even then, it wouldn't be an absolute comparison because some technical callers are stricter than others.

 

[moriel]

They have never been comparable.
They have never been comparable among different fields. (Scores inevitably grow higher among weak fields than they might for the same athletes competing in a deeper field).
Scores have never been comparable at different times of the season.
They have never been comparable among different host countries.
They have never been comparable during seasons when talented young athletes go out and establish him/her/themselves.
They have never been comparable among different panels.
They have never been comparable during a season in which a slew of athletes retire and the door opens for other athletes.
They have never been comparable between events in which the favorite skates first in the final group vs. when the same athlete skates last.
And they have certainly never been comparable across different seasons.

People may want scores to be comparable. People love to compare scores and claim that they prove one athlete is in a different class than another. People love to analyze scores for the sheer fun of doing so. People can certainly complain when inevitably one competition sends out higher scores than another & those scores are used as tie-breaking or qualifying criteria.

But in reality, scores aren't comparable outside the parameters of a competition.

There is a difference between "are supposed to be" and "are". The thing is, people do compare COP scores all time (plz check this thread and people complaining about Adelina's score - if the scores are not expected to be comparable, why people care about the score she got on this event. Because it will be compared with other score, sount into PBs etc).

Anna would never have gotten 6.0 for that skate. She might get some 5.9s on tech, but probably not all or even most. On the second mark, she would get lower marks--5.6s, 5.7s, maybe some even lower. Adelina would probably get in the low 5's for her tech, but higher on the second mark--enough to put her over Anna on presentation, so maybe 5.7s. Anna would rank first overall, based on her much higher tech marks. The ranking was done within the marks that best represented the performance after deductions, not by giving the best skater the highest possible mark.

I was just giving the marks as examples. Plus, you should add inflation to it: looking at the scores the skaters got, i would not be surprised if judges spammed high marks.
As for highest possible mark, i understand it =) The main point is that 6.0 is a ranking system, while COP isn´t >.>

 

[Mrs. P]

The problem is that ISU, effectively, DOES compare scores across events (namely JGP/GP/Challenger/ISU Championships) for its season's best and personal bests lists. The former determines Grand Prix assignments.

 

[jenaj]

The problem is that ISU, effectively, DOES compare scores across events (namely JGP/GP/Challenger/ISU Championships) for its season's best and personal bests lists. The former determines Grand Prix assignments.

But unless someone qualifies who otherwise would not have, I still don't see that an inflated score at a B event makes that much difference. Presumably Anna and Adelina (Anna for sure) will get high enough scores during the season to qualify in any event, so it really doesn't matter if they get over-scored at a B event. Lots of skaters don't even do any B events (or do them and and don't get a high score) and still qualify.

 

[solani]

I was just giving the marks as examples. Plus, you should add inflation to it: looking at the scores the skaters got, i would not be surprised if judges spammed high marks.
As for highest possible mark, i understand it =) The main point is that 6.0 is a ranking system, while COP isn´t >.>

CoP and 6.0 are both ranking systems. In 6.0 the judges had to know how good all the other skaters are, that's not necessary in CoP. The main difference is that CoP should work without judging based on reputation and we all know that this is a unfulfilled pledge. There's no "artistic" because everything is measurable.

The problem is that ISU, effectively, DOES compare scores across events (namely JGP/GP/Challenger/ISU Championships) for its season's best and personal bests lists. The former determines Grand Prix assignments.

Thanks for this info, I didn't know that. They should use the world ranking list, but then I guess it would take much longer for a young skater to rise through the ranks and be able to skate at a GP ... that also wouldn't be good.

 

[Mrs. P]

But unless someone qualifies who otherwise would not have, I still don't see that an inflated score at a B event makes that much difference. Presumably Anna and Adelina (Anna for sure) will get high enough scores during the season to qualify in any event, so it really doesn't matter if they get over-scored at a B event. Lots of skaters don't even do any B events (or do them and and don't get a high score) and still qualify.

The bigger point is that by using a SB list for these competitions, ISU IS comparing scores across competitions. If they really want to send the message that you shouldn't compare scores between competitions, they shouldn't provide lists of SB/PBs then.

 

[randomfan]

The bigger point is that by using a SB list for these competitions, ISU IS comparing scores across competitions. If they really want to send the message that you shouldn't compare scores between competitions, they shouldn't provide lists of SB/PBs then.

Agreed!

 

[StitchMonkey]

The bigger point is that by using a SB list for these competitions, ISU IS comparing scores across competitions. If they really want to send the message that you shouldn't compare scores between competitions, they shouldn't provide lists of SB/PBs then.

Likewise they are used in the official Challenger Series Rankings.

http://www.isuresults.com/events/cs2015/csladies.htm

Adelina is currently ranked 10th, ahead of Rika Hongo, Evgenia Medvedeva, Satoko Miyahara and Kaetlyn Osmond even though all 4 of them have one gold medal each and Adelina has a sliver. If scores were not intended to be comparable, then this ranking, at least in this format) should not exist.

 

[Mista Ekko]

I'm not sure if they're aware, But a couple of people here are ACTIVELY defending biased judging,

Under the argument that scores in smaller competitions are not that important and no one compares anyways or something...

Can we somehow convey to them how badly they need to stop?

 

[Meoima]

The bigger point is that by using a SB list for these competitions, ISU IS comparing scores across competitions. If they really want to send the message that you shouldn't compare scores between competitions, they shouldn't provide lists of SB/PBs then.

I agree with this. Because scoring change all the time. If they want to use it the same way as 6.0, fine, I don't care if they gave out 80 points or whatever for ladies, but this 80 point in competition A should't be compare to 70 points in competition X somewhere else.

 

[wah4us]

I'm not sure if they're aware, But a couple of people here are ACTIVELY defending biased judging,

Under the argument that scores in smaller competitions are not that important and no one compares anyways or something...

Can we somehow convey to them how badly they need to stop?

Stop acting like your opinion is the only or right one and maybe we can start a dialogue.

 

[hurrah]

Figure skating has gone through one judging scandal already, and a second one would likely result in the sport being ousted from Olympic games altogether. So, I'm sure that ISU knows that it's in their interest to make sure that figure skating is scored neutrally without any whiff of a judging scandal. Aaand, since scores are meant to be compared across competition, I think that we can expect skaters with better skating skills and performances than Pogo and Sot to receive better PCS at another competition. I predict that we will be seeing +75PCS in ladies events this season. Otherwise, the scoring at the Mordovian Ornament would become fodder to prove that the judging system under ISU is corrupt.

(And, since there is only so much more inflation that CoP can further take---PCS tops at 80---I think it is important to make sure that judges' scores in future ISU-sanctioned events remain reasonable.)

 

[Mista Ekko]

Stop acting like your opinion is the only or right one and maybe we can start a dialogue.

Ok, I suppose you'd like to open a dialogue as to the validity of biased judging?

By all means go ahead

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'm far more annoyed by posters telling everyone who should be scored what and in what range. There is a reason the scores are averaged and the highest and lowest are thrown out. Something that is impossible to achieve factoring in only your own opinion.

Sure it's concerning that scores can't and shouldn't be compared from event to event and still the ISU stupidly uses PB's for determining things like tiebreakers and qualifications. But that is the real problem at hand and the root of this drama. It's hardly good reason for the throngs of fans who seem to hijack CoP in every thread even more so than the judges IMHO to make a point based largely on personal opinion. Sure...each opinion counts and should be heard but...stop and think about that for a second.

There is a huge difference in being a fan of a sport than in being a fan of a skater.

I can't think of a good reason to keep PB's or why anyone values WR scores in a sport that doesn't keep the same rules and scoring values from season to season

End Rant

 

[Mista Ekko]

PB's and WR's are not the main issue here,

neither are the skaters who are doing everything they can,

It's the judging,

In my book a fan of the sport would care.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Likewise they are used in the official Challenger Series Rankings.

http://www.isuresults.com/events/cs2015/csladies.htm

Adelina is currently ranked 10th, ahead of Rika Hongo, Evgenia Medvedeva, Satoko Miyahara and Kaetlyn Osmond even though all 4 of them have one gold medal each and Adelina has a sliver. If scores were not intended to be comparable, then this ranking, at least in this format) should not exist.

I didn't even know something like that existed - does it have any influence on future assignments or something like that? (I mean besides these points counting for the season standings)

Adelina shouldn't be ranked higher than any of the other ladies you listed, I agree, but then neither should pretty much everyone between 2nd and 9th, IMO. By just counting together the different overall scores, you simply get in the lead by doing more competitions than others, and I don't think that's the right way to count it.

That said, comparing by placements is just as unfair as comparing by scores. Adelina has a silver to the other 4 girls golds - but what if she would have skated better but just had the tougher competition? So no SBs/PBs at all? I find them rather fun, I admit. Shortest solution to me would be to not count the scores from senior Bs (fancy Challenger Series name now or whatever) as official scores.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

PB's and WR's are not the main issue here,

neither are the skaters who are doing everything they can,

It's the judging,

In my book a fan of the sport would care.

I'm really surprised you don't think it's the source of the problem that PB's and WR's are taken seriously not only by fans but in determining placements. The subjective nature of judged events with even the most honest panel leads me to draw a very different conclusion. Obviously you're entitled to your opinion but it's not something I brush aside so easily.

If everything was soley based on placements and points then there would be no reason for most of this non productive arguing going on in this thread.

For the sake of argument...if a tie breaker situation arose I'd be ok with using a skater's highest BV that season as the tiebreaker. It's not perfect but probably the most reasonable solution. And it will leave plenty of room for people to get all worked up and obsess over. So we'll still have plenty of but we'll also have instant replay we can use as actual evidence to sprinkle on our popcorn :yay:

 

[Mattieu]

I really enjoyed Adelina, so nice to see a singles skater use the music. I am now a fan along with Queen Liza.
I guess I like to see women skating, not little girls.

 

[Mista Ekko]

I'm really surprised you don't think it's the source of the problem that PB's and WR's are taken seriously not only by fans but in determining placements. The subjective nature of judged events with even the most honest panel leads me to draw a very different conclusion. Obviously you're entitled to your opinion but it's not something I brush aside so easily.

If everything was soley based on placements and points then there would be no reason for most of this non productive arguing going on in this thread.

For the sake of argument...if a tie breaker situation arose I'd be ok with using a skater's highest BV that season as the tiebreaker. It's not perfect but probably the most reasonable solution. And it will leave plenty of room for people to get all worked up and obsess over. So we'll still have plenty of but we'll also have instant replay we can use as actual evidence to sprinkle on our popcorn :yay:

You've completely taken my argument out of context.

What i'm saying is it's not a good path to make this about the question wether PBs and WRs are appropriate anymore,

That derives the conversations from the real problem here: Biased marking in official competitions

Yes we can make PBs insignificant or adjust the system, But if people are abusing it there's alway gonna be something else


It's kinda like arguing 6.0 vs. COP, Yes you can argue about it but the system is not the thing that matters most, It's who's operating it.