Long Program: Too Loooooong?

[Rissa]

The problem these days is the concentration. Smart phones, computers, TV ect. shortens the attention span. I always had this problem, for example i like to read books, but i'm soooo slow in reading, bc i can't stay focused for more than 5 minutes. That's why i only watch my favorites, when it comes to sport, bc i'm easily bored :sad46:

Yeah, but c'mon even the LP lasts only 4 minutes. It's not the same as having to sit through 1.5 hours of a uni class (at least this is how long classes/lectures are at uni o er here) or through 3 hours of a Lord of the Rings movie.

Unless we're talking the entire event? Then I'm like many people here, 2-3 groups depending on the discipline. That's at worlds, where I know skaters and have many favorites. At junior gp that's running right now, I usually watch just one group of the FS, and cherry-pick favorites for the SP (and then I always have to go back to watch the ones who scored unexpectedly well, my system's not perfect. )

Personally, regarding the LP, I find them a bit too long in about 50-60 % of cases. Basically, really good programs can hold my attention. I don't mind the plans to shorten the Men's program by, uhhh, 30 secs was it? On the other hand, I find the SP usually a bit too short. I very often get the feeling of disappointment that it's already over. A 1'30" program would be unbearable to me, it would always leave me unsatisfied.

 

[4everchan]

tv + money... that's why it doesn't work...

what other sport has ONE athlete centerstage for 4 minutes? one athlete also means one country... and we know tv broadcasts like to show their own athletes

Racing,time trial, etc whether it's cycling or skiing will have staggered departure so we can follow different athletes at different points in the race.. or of course, a mass start will work out even better (like in some track events and of course, swimming with 8 swimmers in the pool)

other so called artistic sports : gymnastics : many athletes on the different apparatus but moreoever, the routines are about 1 minute long for the longest apparatus.

diving... a dive is 3 seconds long... and while the athlete is getting ready on the board, another is climbing up....

Ski : moguls... again 30 seconds... and on top of that, they developed the parallel event, especially because it would appeal audiences to see 2 skiers going head to head...

look at synchro swimming : the solo has vanished from the olympics.... same sort of deal...

so... is there really a solution? To please TV ? not really... that's why they show the final flight or flnal 2 flights.... CBC will not even show all Canadians if they had poor performances in the early flights.

I don't think the length of the total final 2 flights is an issue... there are tons of sports who will be aired for 2-3 hours.... but they are team sports... or events like tennis where the competitor is across the net from the other... I think that's an issue as well... for the general public, they cannot follow. I remember having to commentate for my landlady an entire night of 4CC men's LP (when Kevin won). She needed to know why such and such skater was getting more points etc... she enjoyed the evening but she admitted never watching it usually because she couldn't keep track. I think the TES ticker is helping as at least, audience can see that after an element a score is awarded.

But yeah.... are we sure we would like to rehaul the sport???? I mean... making a program in two minutes means that either skaters jump way way less or what???

4 minutes is already jam packed.... in pairs, it's even worse, they go from one element to the other in both programs without even having anytime between elements....

shortening the time allotted would really mean : removing elements.... which probably would mean making the sport even more predictable... for instance : if only one jump were to be allowed, 90% of ladies would all pick the 3Lz... ZZZ

 

[fallingsk8er]

For me, the program only seems long when the skater is skating around aimlessly while waiting for the 2 minute mark so they can do more jumps in the second half. Every skater seems to do that in the middle of the program. If they took that section out, then the program would seem shorter.

 

[Rissa]

For me, the program only seems long when the skater is skating around aimlessly while waiting for the 2 minute mark so they can do more jumps in the second half. Every skater seems to do that in the middle of the program. If they took that section out, then the program would seem shorter.

Good choreographers fill it with spins, step/choreo sequences... it's only a mark of bad skater/choreography that these breather sections seem like skating around aimlessly. If you took that section out pf the program, you'd be only left with jumps. And no pacing variation. Not a great solution either.

For example, Evgenia Medvedeva had an extremely backloaded program, but I didn't particulary feel it because the beginning was well-choreographed in that regard.

 

[cl2]

Boring short programs are too long. Captivating long programs are too short.

 

[Biellmann]

Yeah, but c'mon even the LP lasts only 4 minutes. It's not the same as having to sit through 1.5 hours of a uni class (at least this is how long classes/lectures are at uni o er here) or through 3 hours of a Lord of the Rings movie.

Unless we're talking the entire event? Then I'm like many people here, 2-3 groups depending on the discipline. That's at worlds, where I know skaters and have many favorites. At junior gp that's running right now, I usually watch just one group of the FS, and cherry-pick favorites for the SP (and then I always have to go back to watch the ones who scored unexpectedly well, my system's not perfect. )

Personally, regarding the LP, I find them a bit too long in about 50-60 % of cases. Basically, really good programs can hold my attention. I don't mind the plans to shorten the Men's program by, uhhh, 30 secs was it? On the other hand, I find the SP usually a bit too short. I very often get the feeling of disappointment that it's already over. A 1'30" program would be unbearable to me, it would always leave me unsatisfied.

Yes, this :agree2:

It's different with movies, bc there is action every few minutes, flickering pictures, sounds ect., it's what your brain wants. When you're watching at home on TV, it's even easier bc of commercial breaks

 

[WeakAnkles]

The problem these days is the concentration. Smart phones, computers, TV ect. shortens the attention span. I always had this problem, for example i like to read books, but i'm soooo slow in reading, bc i can't stay focused for more than 5 minutes. That's why i only watch my favorites, when it comes to sport, bc i'm easily bored :sad46:

There have been numerous studies done on this, particularly the effects of television watching on mental functioning. Two things people should be aware of. A longitudinal (aka "over a long period of time") study was conducted over the rates of Alzheimers disease and when cable television was introduced into an area. There is a definite rise in rates of Alzheimer's Disease several years after people have access to cable television. This doesn't necessarily mean that there is a direct cause and effect relationship here, but there's enough of a link to necessitate further study. The second area has to do with the rise of MTV in the 1980s, particularly with its use of "jump cutting" (the number of edits of an image within a small time frame). Videos greatly greatly increased the number of jump cuts, an editing process that became ubiquitous not only in videos, but in television shows and movies. You very rarely see long takes anymore. Downton Abbey is a good example of this. After the first season, the number of jump cuts increased exponentially, as each scene became shorter and shorter and scenes were cross cut with other scenes. The theory is that if you were exposed to this when your brain was still developing (and brains continue to develop into late adolescence), the mind simply never learns to concentrate on a specific image for any length of time. Now with the introduction of smart phones, computers, etc, the problem will probably only get worse. You have to learn how to concentrate, the same way a skater has to learn how to jump or spin.

Sorry Sam, for going all topic: but I think there's something to that.

Of course personal interest plays a big part. I'm a dance junkie so I'm happy to watch 40 dance programs in a row, even the less than stellar ones. But the women don't tend to interest me as much, so yes, I tend to become more easily distracted or bored watching program after program.

 

[Rissa]

Yes, this :agree2:

It's different with movies, bc there is action every few minutes, flickering pictures, sounds ect., it's what your brain wants. When you're watching at home on TV, it's even easier bc of commercial breaks

Lol, I know something about the shortening attention span. When I was a teen I could read a book for 5 hours straight, now, no way, too many distractions. The only times I sit through a movie without a pause button is at the cinema... (Though I can do a few hours of video editing when I get into the zone without inerruptons, but that's a complicated thing requiring doing lots of different small tasks) But then watching a FS isn't actually too hard, I watch the program, then there's the judging break when I can do something else (go to the bathroom/get a snack/coffee/comment on my tablet). I guess those breaks try the patiencd for most people, though, and if that was eliminated, it'd change the reception of the sport majorly. But oh well, I wouldn't like hasty, unfair judging either.

 

[Meoima]

Well maybe they should cut short the amount of skaters who will be allowed to do free skate? From 24 to 12 or so.

 

[Biellmann]

There have been numerous studies done on this, particularly the effects of television watching on mental functioning. Two things people should be aware of. A longitudinal (aka "over a long period of time") study was conducted over the rates of Alzheimers disease and when cable television was introduced into an area. There is a definite rise in rates of Alzheimer's Disease several years after people have access to cable television. This doesn't necessarily mean that there is a direct cause and effect relationship here, but there's enough of a link to necessitate further study. The second area has to do with the rise of MTV in the 1980s, particularly with its use of "jump cutting" (the number of edits of an image within a small time frame). Videos greatly greatly increased the number of jump cuts, an editing process that became ubiquitous not only in videos, but in television shows and movies. You very rarely see long takes anymore. Downton Abbey is a good example of this. After the first season, the number of jump cuts increased exponentially, as each scene became shorter and shorter and scenes were cross cut with other scenes. The theory is that if you were exposed to this when your brain was still developing (and brains continue to develop into late adolescence), the mind simply never learns to concentrate on a specific image for any length of time. Now with the introduction of smart phones, computers, etc, the problem will probably only get worse. You have to learn how to concentrate, the same way a skater has to learn how to jump or spin.

Sorry Sam, for going all topic: but I think there's something to that.

Of course personal interest plays a big part. I'm a dance junkie so I'm happy to watch 40 dance programs in a row, even the less than stellar ones. But the women don't tend to interest me as much, so yes, I tend to become more easily distracted or bored watching program after program.

Exactly. I always loved watching TV, even as a child. I'm an introvert and have a mild form of social anxiety so i was never interested in social life. These days i have the feeling there are soo many things in my mind and i have many hobbies, bc i can't stay focused on only one
The irony is, i'm an artist and writer, i'm actually writing books 400 pages long and i can focuse on writing for hours

Back to the thread topic:

 

[Biellmann]

Lol, I know something about the shortening attention span. When I was a teen I could read a book for 5 hours straight, now, no way, too many distractions. The only times I sit through a movie without a pause button is at the cinema... (Though I can do a few hours of video editing when I get into the zone without inerruptons, but that's a complicated thing requiring doing lots of different small tasks) But then watching a FS isn't actually too hard, I watch the program, then there's the judging break when I can do something else (go to the bathroom/get a snack/coffee/comment on my tablet). I guess those breaks try the patiencd for most people, though, and if that was eliminated, it'd change the reception of the sport majorly. But oh well, I wouldn't like hasty, unfair judging either.

When i was younger i could read Harry Potter books all day long
I don't know how :scratch3:

 

[Rissa]

Well maybe they should cut short the amount of skaters who will be allowed to do free skate? From 24 to 12 or so.

Well, 12 is the number at GPs, 6 at GP final... I guess sorta OK at Euros or 4CCs, but seems quite unfair at Worlds. TVs will show as much as they want, people at the arena will watch as much as they want, but skaters shouldn't be deprived of their chances... On the other hand competitions such as Euros or 4CCs that accept lower-ranking skaters are an incentive for skaters to keep skating, so cutting their chances of attending would probably undermine the sport too.

 

[Krunchii]

I was thinking they should probably decrease the amount of skaters who make it to the long but then again, the skaters who reach this cutoff point are usually small federation skaters or beginners who haven't had much experience, so I'm a bit torn on that regard because it's extremely valuable experience/exposure to them that they wouldn't be able to get anywhere else. Honestly I usually only watch the last 3 groups of LPs, I can't stay focused for that long.

Kudos to people like Ted Barton who can sit through hours of JGP and say something nice about everyone.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Reading the thread title, I thought it meant the time allotted for a LP was considered too long by the OP. I didn't read the thread itself because I didn't have much thought about it. Now that I'm here and have found out it's about the length of time to watch a whole LP event, I'm actually a little baffled. So it's a personal attention span issue, but nobody is made to watch the whole event. You voluntarily seek the opportunity and the venue to watch it, either live or later. You also have the choice to pick which performances you would watch, live or later. Why the complaint or the contemplation to change the actual format of the competitions?

All competitors have trained hard and made effort to be at the event and to perform. Some of them are not quite the very elite skaters but get there because of quota. They are not the stars but the opportunities mean a lot to them and their supporters - families, friends, and coaches. Some of them may be rising stars to be discovered, gaining experiences at the moment. One way or another, they have earned, and likely treasure, the right to be there. I hate to have them deprived. Their supporters do want to watch and celebrate their efforts and performances.

Personally, how much I watch depends on time constraint and the degree of interest in the competing skaters. Most likely, I try to watch the last group or two live, and some particular earlier skaters if possible. Then there are always the videos, these days almost immediately thanks to diligent tech savvy fans, that I can watch at my leisure, picking them at any order I please and watching a favorite multiple times if I so please.

It is the event organizers, the ISU, the broadcasters, volunteers, and other enablers, er, facilitators, who bear the costs and effort to bring the enjoyment and choices to me, besides the skaters and their teams of course. I can only be so grateful.

 

[TGee]

Well maybe they should cut short the amount of skaters who will be allowed to do free skate? From 24 to 12 or so.

When I see the hours and hours of sports such as curling (one team plays for more than 4 minutes before switching) or baseball running on the screens at a place we eat at close to our club, I suspect that there is just something amiss in the norms for broadcasting.

Running scoring for TES, but also program preview listing and live scoring bars along the bottom of the screen might make it watchable with the sound low. We get the planned program info and live scoring on the big boards at the major competitions here and it really helps me stay engaged. (And even our youngest watches and says things like "throw triple twist coming up soon..".)

Alex D's comment about spending the day in an arena rings true for me. But I ask myself how I am able to enjoy an entire multi group flight of 25 to 30 unknown lower level skaters when helping out as a volunteer at a local competition, but find the equivalent 2-3 hours on TV to be too much at a stretch.

 

[mrrice]

Well, 12 is the number at GPs, 6 at GP final... I guess sorta OK at Euros or 4CCs, but seems quite unfair at Worlds. TVs will show as much as they want, people at the arena will watch as much as they want, but skaters shouldn't be deprived of their chances... On the other hand competitions such as Euros or 4CCs that accept lower-ranking skaters are an incentive for skaters to keep skating, so cutting their chances of attending would probably undermine the sport too.

This completely correct. Remember that skaters in the final flight do not arrive when the skaters in the first flight arrive. You've all seen the fluff pieces in between the early flights that will show Ashley arriving at the arena, then they'll show Gracie Jogging, Mirai Stretching, and Polina with her headphone's on marking through her program back stage. The long Program's are most definitely NOT too long. I don't want to see a "Style Free" Jump Off between a bunch of Youngin's. Ashley's Free Program built from beginning to end and a mood was set by her wonderful performance. You could hear a pin drop during the middle section of her Program and I'd rather see that a thousand times over a shorter jump filled program. We have the short program already.

Skating has come has a lot farther than some of you realize. Do we want to go back to a time when this is a program capable of winning the Championships? Jill Trenary 1990 Worlds. Jill was second in the Free, only landed 4 triples, and didn't have a Lutz. But, due to her massive lead in school figures, she beat Midori Ito. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMC008lGcX8

 

[temadd]

When done well, I enjoy watching long programs. It allows skaters to show their creativity and ability to tell a story.

I thought there was some talk in the ISU about shortening the long program after 2018. It's all about money and TV contracts unfortunately, and not skating.

 

[sabinfire]

I'm not sure I feel the Free Skate is too long, but I share the OP opinion that a SP session is generally easier for me to sit through than an LP session. SP's are generally well-constructed and don't overstay their welcome. LP's can sometimes feel like a series of jumps, and they can really last an eternity if you don't care for the program music or if the skater is having a rough time...

I know here in the USA & Canada the SP programs are rarely televised for the mainstream viewer, instead focusing on the Free Skate, which determines the final placements.

An interesting experiment would be for the ISU to 'randomize' the order of the sessions for each event, so that sometimes the Long Program would be performed first, then conclude the comp with the Short Program.

 

[EdgeCall]

An interesting experiment would be for the ISU to 'randomize' the order of the sessions for each event, so that sometimes the Long Program would be performed first, then conclude the comp with the Short Program.

I don't think this would work well. The point spread in the LP is usually double the spread in the SP. If the LP is done first we would see much fewer changes of places after the SP. ISU would need to make the SP equal in points to the LP to keep the end result open.

Btw. don't laugh, but I like the analogy of the SP/LP concept to the qualifying/race concept of formula one. In the SP the skaters fight for a good position (preferably the "pole") and in the LP they "race" to the win.

 

[sabinfire]

I don't think this would work well. The point spread in the LP is usually double the spread in the SP. If the LP is done first we would see much fewer changes of places after the SP. ISU would need to make the SP equal in points to the LP to keep the end result open.

It's the same amount of points (combined) between the two programs at the end of the day. If it were at all close, the SP would still matter just as much.

That's the type of thinking that probably causes the "do away with the SP" sentiment. The perception could be the SP doesn't really matter. Just perform a fantastic/flawless LP at the end and you will place high, even with a disastrous short.