Long Program: Too Loooooong?

[TGee]

I'm not sure I feel the Free Skate is too long, but I share the OP opinion that a SP session is generally easier for me to sit through than an LP session. SP's are generally well-constructed and don't overstay their welcome. LP's can sometimes feel like a series of jumps, and they can really last an eternity if you don't care for the program music or if the skater is having a rough time...

I know here in the USA & Canada the SP programs are rarely televised for the mainstream viewer, instead focusing on the Free Skate, which determines the final placements.

An interesting experiment would be for the ISU to 'randomize' the order of the sessions for each event, so that sometimes the Long Program would be performed first, then conclude the comp with the Short Program.

With you on LPs that never seem to end ...and would add repetitive choreography to the list... But knowing what the planned program is supposed to be can keep me engaged... A running on screen comparison or listing of completed elements would be trivial for the networks to add at his point in the technology.

Really have strong negative feelings about the NA networks treating the SP like it was a heat or a qualifier. Especially when the North American Feds were among it's early proponents.

Randomizing though IMO would just devalue the whole thing. It would be great for the ISU and the NA federations to champion the SPs a bit more. I'd like For them to them run on the cable sports channels as they do for nationals. Getting the live stream is nice, but the seniors audience who are still a large part of the revenue base aren't likely watching.

 

[EdgeCall]

It's the same amount of points (combined) between the two programs at the end of the day. If it were at all close, the SP would still matter just as much.

That's the type of thinking that probably causes the "do away with the SP" sentiment. The perception could be the SP doesn't really matter. Just perform a fantastic/flawless LP at the end and you will place high, even with a disastrous short.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. Of course the end result is the same regardless if the SP or the LP comes first. But the LP has twice the impact on the outcome as the SP, meaning the placing in the LP is much closer to the end result.

Just for comparison, in the five full GP events 2015 (no TEB) there is a difference between the SP and final placings of 92 positions altogether. The difference between the LP and the final placings is only 56, meaning fewer changes when the SP is done after the LP and less excitement.

But of course, the SP contributes roughly a third of the overall points and still matters very much for the outcome. As they say, you cannot win it in the SP, you can only lose it.

 

[gkelly]

I've noticed though over the last four years that my resolve to watch the SP from start to finish is as strong as ever but I just can't bring myself to watch everyone's FS. It's just too long in most events

In ISU championships and Olympics, there are cuts after the short program so only top 24 (singles) or (IIRC) 16 pairs or 20 dance teams skate their free skates. For singles, that cuts out a resurface or two as well. So in that sense, the free skate takes less total time than the short program.

For JGP and senior B events, the fields are often larger than the championship FS maximum and also don't cut after the short, so the free skates can indeed go on for many hours.

But those events are more to serve the athletes than spectators, so spectator-based changes wouldn't make much sense there. And the average skill level tends to be lower than at championships, so no matter how many skaters are entered, it's likely that fewer than 6 would be of interest to casual fans, whereas at Worlds there might indeed be 12 or 18 or 24 skaters worth watching -- taking into account that many difficult jumps increases the likelihood of major errors during those performances.

The senior Grand Prix is more spectator-focused in its construction. And it even went through some experimental formatting at the turn of the century with head-to-head matchups for a year or two and two freeskates for a little longer than that. (And of course IJS was tested on the Grand Prix for a season before being adopted for championships.)

So maybe that would be the place to start with any alternative formats designed with spectators in mind.

How much might that interfere with top skaters' use of these events in preparation for the championships, though?

Then there are novelty events like Japan Open that could do anything they want -- especially if scheduled outside the regular season.

I'd love to see three shorter programs myself. The first event could be the SP as we know it followed by a 1:30 artistic program featuring only one jump that they all would do but just steps and creative choreography for the most part. Then I'd like a 3 minute program that featured 5 jumping passes and a reduction of PCS value.

I would be interested in watching something like this.
What I had thought was the possibility of doing jump events (not friendly to fans of artistic skating, but potentially exciting to fans of athleticism if the format allows skaters to be more daring than can afford to be in the context of a program), spin event (could be held on half ice so men and women could compete simultaneously at opposite ends), a skating skills/interpretation-focused program such as you suggest but with no points for multirev jumps if they're even allowed at all, and then a well-balanced freeskate.

The element competitions could have their own medals, and then skaters who do best in the combined scores could move on to the freeskate final.

To me, the purpose of the well-balanced freeskate is to allow skaters to show off all their best skills and their mastery of the best range of skills, both athletic/technical and artistic, within a single performance. So I'm not sure that making it shorter would best serve that purpose. If there were to be fewer jump passes allowed, for example, I would hope that it would either be required or explicitly rewarded for skaters to demonstrate 6 different jump takeoffs, or to forbid repetition of any triple and quadruple jumps at all instead of the currently allowed two repeats.

However, having 3 or 4 phases to an event would make the whole competition require more total time and more total ice time than when there are only 2 phases. If there would be cuts after the shorter events so that only the best skaters present get to skate the final freeskate, that might cut down on some of the extra time required.

We'd still need to address how the structure and the cuts would affect different kinds of competitions. It would be one thing to have 30-40 skaters enter the shorter initial phases and end up with only 12 in the final freeskate at ISU championships. But what about JGPs and senior Bs -- would those have drastic cuts too, even though audience interest is much lower than for championships and participation is a big deal for many more skaters who may never get to the championships?

GP events already start out with fewer participants, so there probably isn't much need to cut the fields even smaller before the freeskates.

And how would federations structure their national events to decide who to send to various internationals?

Would skaters who expect to be cut at the championships have reason to prepare the second program at all?

For an audience-centered approach, another option might be to start with the well-balanced long program as the first round that all skaters get to skate in and show off their variety of skills, and judges would have to sit through a long day of performances in the same event with 40+ long programs.

But then the final round at championships could be only for the best of the best, with a shorter more performance-oriented program for the benefit of choosing an audience-friendly champion from among those who have proven their technical worth to the judges and the diehard fans.

 

[Tyranid]

The LP is fine in it's length.

If you find the competition too long then just tune in for the last 2-3 groups. If you traveled to the event then come to the arena later... What is the problem with having 35 people do a LP? Just don't watch the first half of that skate, it's so simple. What's the point of forcefully reducing the number of participants. Did someone sit you down and make you watch the whole event??? What's the point of separating an event into 3 different programs? To make a system, that goes through major changes every 4 years, even more difficult to understand? Where is the logic behind this?

Also, no FS fan ever points out that the LP is what seperates the good skaters from the not-so-good ones. It's a precise test of class. Second tier skaters rarely skate a clean LP. Seriusly, how many times did you see a 2'nd tier skater do 2 clean programs?

In terms of reforming the LP, a much better argument would be to make the LP an actual FS. We all know that the Free Skate is anything but free. Hence I think that we should never use the term FS in the tournament section (but that's for another topic). Then again... originally "free skating" effectively means - not compulsive figures. Since there are no more compulsive figures, then, by that definition, all of today's figure skating is "free skating". Withe the SP being its shorter version, and the LP being it's longer version.

 

[Rissa]

Also, no FS fan ever points out that the LP is what seperates the good skaters from the not-so-good ones. It's a precise test of class. Second tier skaters rarely skate a clean LP. Seriusly, how many times did you see a 2'nd tier skater do 2 clean programs?
.

Uhhh, so do the first tier skaters, actually, at least in my favorite discipline, Men. And pairs, I believe.

I agree about the rest, though.

 

[NanaPat]

look at synchro swimming : the solo has vanished from the olympics.... same sort of deal...

The reason the synchronized swimming solos disappeared from the Olympics was so they could add teams. The Olympic people wanted solos, but the synchro people passionately wanted teams. Teams are not as well suited to TV as solos are, though they're better since the advent of big screen TVs.

 

[TGee]

The reason the synchronized swimming solos disappeared from the Olympics was so they could add teams. The Olympic people wanted solos, but the synchro people passionately wanted teams. Teams are not as well suited to TV as solos are, though they're better since the advent of big screen TVs.

The IOC is reluctant to add new team sports due to the numbers of athletes host counties would need to house and test etc. So ISU is still struggling get Synchronized Skating into the Olympics despite it's worldwide growth and fan base.

Note that it seems that Syncho swimming has lost out -- only one team for each of five global regions plus a few more. The Americas top ranked team did not go to Rio as Brazil got the hemispheric slot as host country.

 

[blue_idealist]

It's too long for me as a fan, but I still think the skaters should do it to show that they have the endurance to.

 

[MalAssada]

I never watch entire competitions beside GPs, because that is about the amount of time I can focus on figure skating. I personally think that a well structured Long Program passes in the blink of an eye, but agree that perhaps cutting it a little would not hurt. I would like to see LPs of 3min30sec for women, with less jumps. 6, no matter the rotations, perhaps.

 

[bestolen]

I think the program time is ok.
The judging time is the one should be cut off.
If I watch Videos on YouTube, I can skip the judging time to scores time.
People watch TV or in the stadium can not skip.
It's a torture almost using half time waiting the judging and only another half time to enjoy the competition.
ISU should do something to short the judging time.

 

[mcq]

I agree it is not about the length of the long program but about the amount of people we have to sit through in doing the free skate. Cutting the long program 30 or 60 seconds shorter will not do much for the total allotted time. But cutting it from 30-40 people to 12-18 people seems more reasonable. Think of the SP as a qualifying round like in gymnastics (or any sport for that matter).

This is why GPF and GP series is more enjoyable for me to watch because I watch only 6-12 skaters and it usually only took me 1-2 hours per discipline; very normal for any type of sports. For worlds, nationals and Euro/4CC I usually only watch the last group for pairs and ice dance or 2 last groups for singles, and I consider myself a skating fan so I can't imagine how sitting through 30 skaters would feel for general audience. I will usually just search the individual video of a performance if someone out of the final 2 groups skate well.

 

[4everchan]

I think the length needs to stay... during the LP that's really when we can see who has trained well or not... stamina is a big factor, also, the mental game is a must, staying focus for a good period of time despite the good and bad stuff happening...

ALSO : it's the perfect time for a fridge or bathroom break when needed

 

[4everchan]

they just put adverts on tv.. i am sure the networks like the judging times

I think the program time is ok.
The judging time is the one should be cut off.
If I watch Videos on YouTube, I can skip the judging time to scores time.
People watch TV or in the stadium can not skip.
It's a torture almost using half time waiting the judging and only another half time to enjoy the competition.
ISU should do something to short the judging time.

 

[brightphoton]

Question: is this a problem for rhythmic gymnastics? Sometimes I watch but it's too dang long and in 4 different sections. Ribbons, clubs, a ball and a hoop. Each section seems as long as a figure skating long program too. They don't have have a TES box, so you have no idea what a club throw is worth or if that ribbon twirl is difficult or easy. It's probably why is relatively unpopular. They should just have one big routine, with clubs, ribbons, etc. all in one performance.

 

[moriel]

Question: is this a problem for rhythmic gymnastics? Sometimes I watch but it's too dang long and in 4 different sections. Ribbons, clubs, a ball and a hoop. Each section seems as long as a figure skating long program too. They don't have have a TES box, so you have no idea what a club throw is worth or if that ribbon twirl is difficult or easy. It's probably why is relatively unpopular. They should just have one big routine, with clubs, ribbons, etc. all in one performance.

I dunno, people on average seem to be more excited about rhythmic gymnastics than about figure skating.

 

[brightphoton]

I dunno, people on average seem to be more excited about rhythmic gymnastics than about figure skating.

Really? I don't hear much about it at all outside of the former USSR region. It's not the highlight event of the summer Olympics -- the normal gymnastics is. Which is too bad. It seems like it has potential as a popular sport, if it would shorten routines so they're fast and quick, like the gymnastics we're used to.

 

[Khoai]

I dunno, people on average seem to be more excited about rhythmic gymnastics than about figure skating.

Of course, people see more pretty and balletic ladies in RG. However, most people in North America don't see it as a sport.

 

[hanca]

Why not to ask to make marathon shorter? Because those who are watching can't concentrate for that long...

 

[blue_idealist]

Why not to ask to make marathon shorter? Because those who are watching can't concentrate for that long...

lmao

 

[TGee]

I think the program time is ok.
The judging time is the one should be cut off.
If I watch Videos on YouTube, I can skip the judging time to scores time.
People watch TV or in the stadium can not skip.
It's a torture almost using half time waiting the judging and only another half time to enjoy the competition.
ISU should do something to short the judging time.

Know the feeling, but also know the time is essential to allow the review of the replays when elements are on the margins. It's key for confidence in the system.

IMO the sport has lost more fans, skaters and general credibility than it can afford. Freestyle skiing and diving seem to be able to still get by with on the fly, no video replay judging...but post Salt Lake City figure skating has lost that, and likely forever.

But I do find it helpful when the big screen provides stats and analysis. Perhaps there could be a split screen, so that we could get the info on the upcoming skaters sooner and have more time to compare planned programs.