Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

[andromache]

I would partially agree with you about this. But for a young, up and coming skater, or a skater wanting to get back in the game after poor showings, they have much more incentive to change their programs. They have a need to improve their PCS and to do that, they need new programs. Boyang and Nathan might get a 9-11 PCS point boost from new programs that the judges like, Patrick might find that a different program has a rhythm that he can add quads to more easily, and also have his PCS recover from their recent slump.
Yuzu's boost might be 2-3 points extra in PCS max, and that's only if the judges like it. If they don't his PCS would stay the same, or even drop again. --There is much less incentive and much more danger for him trying a new program at this point. However, this is not to denigrate those who choose a to skate new programs. I'm delighted and looking forward to Boyang, Nathan, Patrick and Javi's new programs. I also really like what I've seen of Jason's programs so far. But as a logical decision, Yuzu's plan seems solid.
This DOESN'T mean I think his gold is assured or anything. Yuzu can melt down with SEIMEI and Chopin if he gives into pressure. But his odds are better with these programs, that he'll be able to skate the well at the Olympics.

On a different note, I remember at the Sochi Men's event, many spectators were dissatisfied that the Long Program was such a splatfest. There were almost no clean performances.
What if, all this recycling caused a cleaner Olympic competition? Would that be better than all-new programs and a splatfest? Or a clean competition with fewer quads? What do we prefer? -just a thought experiment we could try.
Personally, for an Olympic event, recycling your best program, and having a clean-ish event would be fine with me.

I dislike the idea that skaters who receive consistently high PCS should be motivated to stop challenging themselves and taking risks artistically, although I understand it from a competitive point of view.

Again, I am only trying to make the point that, in this instance, Hanyu is indeed taking the easy way out. Fans might be disappointed by it (as I am) or impressed by his competitive determination. Attempts to justify the decision to repeat programs by focusing on how the programs will not be identical to previous ones or to argue that his is giving himself an even greater challenge by repeating programs does a disservice to the men who are learning one or two new programs from scratch. It's fine to give him credit for his competitive strategy, but we've also got to admit that the reason why it WORKS as a competitive strategy is because re-using programs is less challenging.

As for Olympic meltdowns - in the ladies division, most of the top competitors had "new" programs, and they didn't have any meltdowns. In addition, I'm skeptical of the idea that having "new" programs is to blame for meltdowns. For one thing, no one's program is new by the Olympics - they've been training it for months, and it's been in competition - sometimes skated perfectly - several times. It's all about the brain. Sure, it's plausible that having a recycled program will make you feel more confident - but that's not a security blanket someone as brilliant as Hanyu should need.

 

[Barb]

Well, I rewatched Semei because honestly I only remembered he landing all jumps in the GPF, and for some reason the program does not seem so extraordinary for me, but apparently it is his master piece. And yes, I know skaters owe us nothing, although we, the real fans are always there, watching every damn competition, paying ****** streams (icenetwork) or risking to catch viruses by going to suspicious pages to see the competitions, paying money to go and see the competitions live.
Anyway, I was thinking that Yuzuru es very popular, he get the most of fans in figure skating, so, I think it would be a big deal for figure skating that he goes clean in the olympics, I don´t think people will be so impressed about his program but about his jumps, and if he feels comfortable to focus in his jumps with a repeated program, so it would be really good for the sport in terms of marketing. I know fans of other skaters who started being fans of Yuzu. Anyway I am just seeing this like a special case, he can bring more fans while we can enjoy variety in other skaters or other disciplines .

 

[Interspectator]

I dislike the idea that skaters who receive consistently high PCS should be motivated to stop challenging themselves and taking risks artistically, although I understand it from a competitive point of view.

Again, I am only trying to make the point that, in this instance, Hanyu is indeed taking the easy way out. Fans might be disappointed by it (as I am) or impressed by his competitive determination. Attempts to justify the decision to repeat programs by focusing on how the programs will not be identical to previous ones or to argue that his is giving himself an even greater challenge by repeating programs does a disservice to the men who are learning one or two new programs from scratch. It's fine to give him credit for his competitive strategy, but we've also got to admit that the reason why it WORKS as a competitive strategy is because re-using programs is less challenging.

As for Olympic meltdowns - in the ladies division, most of the top competitors had "new" programs, and they didn't have any meltdowns. In addition, I'm skeptical of the idea that having "new" programs is to blame for meltdowns. For one thing, no one's program is new by the Olympics - they've been training it for months, and it's been in competition - sometimes skated perfectly - several times. It's all about the brain. Sure, it's plausible that having a recycled program will make you feel more confident - but that's not a security blanket someone as brilliant as Hanyu should need.

Well, he got the highest PCS ever two seasons ago, and still thought it was worth it to try two new programs last year. -But the Olympics is different. It causes a rash of recycling and warhorses and sometimes recycled warhorses.
I do think that it is easier for Yuzu to recycle his programs and that is why he is doing it. But does that mean that Boyang and Nathan have more artistic integrity than Yuzu because they are going for two new programs? -or does it mean that they and their team did the calculations and found that their odds were better with new programs?

 

[NoNameFace]

Since my post has mysteriously disappeared, I thought it was worth mentioning that trying to surpass programs like Chopin and Seimei requires a different kind of courage and is worth applauding because it forces Hanyu to face all the pressure brought on from two years ago at such a crucial season.

He won't be free from criticism and his mistakes will be magnified even more so than his competitors simply because he is seen as the man at the forefront. However his ability to look past those drawbacks and focus on the advantages is what allows him to stay competitive. Repeating these programs are a challenge itself but this is still a sport and giving yourself as much leverage as possible while pushing your personal limits.

Everyone has their own challenge to face and Yuzuru chose this one. It's okay to feel disappointed you won't see something new from him this season but to judge his strategy as easier much less so. He's still adding another quad, with 3 in the second half. His Chopin will have two jumps backloaded as well. Technically, he's not making it easy for himself. Had he said he'd go back to his 2015 layout then I'd understand the controversy but right now, I think the risks he's taking make the pros outweigh the cons.

welcome FCSSp4, post often, post long!

seeing some good points you made, I agree that this situation is that 'loud' and 'sensitive' mainly due Yuzuru being such of FS ambassador and prominent figure, setting some kind of general standard to follow, not only in regards to competition, but also to follow in terms of paying attention to. Also, the more you are on the top, the more attention you get - and that means ANY kind of attention.

personally, I see this whole situation on many levels, one being Yuzuru challenging himself in his own, unique way like You said. Heck, the challenge itself is already there, looking at polarizing comments and opinions expressed. But as I said already there - I will wait until the program will be presented and I respect his decision, even trough disappointment. And moreover - even if programs' new versions would not speak to me first time seeing them, Yuzuru is a skater who can produce an amazing performance regardless of people's general opinions of a program - for me, he's one of very few skaters less dependable on music/programs themselves as forms to fit in, but more on how he fills those vehicles/musical themes.

I feel that the issue with these repeated programs lays primarily with people's personal expectations/wishes towards Yuzuru vs reality and the difficulty to accept it. Now, it kind of feels that there are two groups: one fiercely defending Yuzuru's decision (or Yuzuru at all, despite being totally unnecessary) no matter what is the opinion and the rest, mostly expressing disappointment about the sole decision to repeat programs, not stating they are already worse that something else...And another problem is that any other opinion than being happy/excited/raving over Yuzuru repeating programs is usually taken as a hate/negativity or critique towards skater in so personal way.

 

[Yatagarasu]

And another problem is that any other opinion than being happy/excited/raving over Yuzuru repeating programs is usually taken as a hate/negativity or critique towards skater in so personal way.

Or perhaps when his choices are called ridiculous, he's being blamed for not being this or that according to that person's arbitrary individual standards, etc, it's not just a simple disappointment but a little bit more. Lets not cherry pick now, ah?

 

[Interspectator]

welcome FCSSp4, post often, post long!

seeing some good points you made, I agree that this situation is that 'loud' and 'sensitive' mainly due Yuzuru being such of FS ambassador and prominent figure, setting some kind of general standard to follow, not only in regards to competition, but also to follow in terms of paying attention to. Also, the more you are on the top, the more attention you get - and that means ANY kind of attention.

personally, I see this whole situation on many levels, one being Yuzuru challenging himself in his own, unique way like You said. Heck, the challenge itself is already there, looking at polarizing comments and opinions expressed. But as I said already there - I will wait until the program will be presented and I respect his decision, even trough disappointment. And moreover - even if programs' new versions would not speak to me first time seeing them, Yuzuru is a skater who can produce an amazing performance regardless of people's general opinions of a program - for me, he's one of very few skaters less dependable on music/programs themselves as forms to fit in, but more on how he fills those vehicles/musical themes.

I feel that the issue with these repeated programs lays primarily with people's personal expectations/wishes towards Yuzuru vs reality and the difficulty to accept it. Now, it kind of feels that there are two groups: one fiercely defending Yuzuru's decision (or Yuzuru at all, despite being totally unnecessary) no matter what is the opinion and the rest, mostly expressing disappointment about the sole decision to repeat programs, not stating they are already worse that something else...And another problem is that any other opinion than being happy/excited/raving over Yuzuru repeating programs is usually taken as a hate/negativity or critique towards skater in so personal way.

You're right about the disappointment. If I didn't like Yuzu so much, I wouldn't care about new programs or recycled ones. I was pretty disappointed about the re-use of Chopin. But then I saw it at Fantasy on Ice and I fell in love with it again. But I don't blame anyone for feeling like we're missing out on something potentially brilliant, because he's going to reuse his favorite programs. -However, if Yuzu decides to do another 4 years after the Olympics, he'll bring new programs. -Or if he retires, he'll have YEARS of skating in shows in which he can do all sorts of programs (something I look forward to a lot actually).

 

[Ender]

Competitive figure skating is not a fine art.

So? If classical music fans don't blame artists for repeating their repertoire despite the fact that they DO pay for the concert, why figure skating fans keep blaming skaters to repeat the programs that the skaters themselves pay for the training and choreography (not to mention the damage on their health). This is sport competition, where athletes pay for their dreams, not the audience.

 

[NoNameFace]

Or perhaps when his choices are called ridiculous, he's being blamed for not being this or that according to that person's arbitrary individual standards, etc, it's not just a simple disappointment but a little bit more. Lets not cherry pick now, ah?

well, Your comment is only a confirmation of what I think about this whole situation, so thanks a lot.

and let me clarify - the stress in that sentence You quoted should be point on 'personal way', which You then proved again by using examples of other people's 'arbitrary individual standards'. It goes actually both ways, as for being 'personal' and 'arbitrary individual' - for those who defending the decision and having other opinions about it. And another stress goes to 'usually', which does not mean that every non-happy opinion is just a disappointment.

and at the end - this is just my 'arbitrary individual' opinion not even really on Yuzuru, his decision, program et all, but on this whole 'movement' started, since the announcement is no longer that important as it seems from discussion here

 

[chillgil]

PCS has become irrelevant since it rarely reflects what the skater did on the day, or actual artistic values.


If I am the judge, as a general rule of thumb I would mark PCS -5, -8 just based on repeated programs. Otherwise, skaters gain unfair advantages in TES: GOEs, and favourable established benchmarking already, only fair. Otherwise it is unfair for others who put in the effort of learning new choreography every season, take risks with their choices, new routines etc.. Otherwise anyone can just bring their greatest hit, stick with it for 3 seasons, just focus on clean clean rotate and be done with it.

1.) you should read the rulebook....PCS =\= "artistry"
2.) thats like saying "oh man its so unfair that a top skater is returning to a fabulous program that was originally composed two years ago that has been cemented in the history books as legenday, while I've never had a great program like his so i have to make up a whole new program??? Ugh why!? So unfair!" You see how ungrounded this sounds?

 

[beki]

It's a symptom of men's skating being all about the quads. Nathan landed so many clean quads in an empty program, the most efficient way to catch up was to reuse a program (not an empty one, a wonderful one). It's a disappointment but not a shock.

 

[chillgil]

If PCS is about technical ability, don't be mad when Nathan, Boyang, and other TES wunderkinds get high PCS.

Technical difficulty is one thing, artistic difficulty through challenging yourself and taking risks is another.

Reusing two programs is way easier than getting two new ones, for any skater. Hanyu isn't an exception.

They clearly said that PCS is strongly linked to the technical aspects of skating, not just jumps. So if you read the guidelines for PCS youll see that "artistry" and "challenging yourself in an artistic way" has no place there. Just because nathan decided not to use his old programs doesnt mean his PCS should automatically get even more inflated. Taking risks to up your chances of getting higher PCS is a valid strategy but it depends on the risk. Like putting in more 1 foot skating is risky because it's more tiring than crossovers. But performing a new program is not necessary for high PCS, so for some skaters it is a risk they are not willing to take

 

[andromache]

Or perhaps when his choices are called ridiculous, he's being blamed for not being this or that according to that person's arbitrary individual standards, etc, it's not just a simple disappointment but a little bit more. Lets not cherry pick now, ah?

I mean...reusing the same two programs from two years ago, both of which have already been skating perfectly and beautifully, is an extremely unusual choice. One might even call the choice ridiculous. There's no need to get offended over it.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I would partially agree with you about this. But for a young, up and coming skater, or a skater wanting to get back in the game after poor showings, they have much more incentive to change their programs. They have a need to improve their PCS and to do that, they need new programs. Boyang and Nathan might get a 9-11 PCS point boost from new programs that the judges like, Patrick might find that a different program has a rhythm that he can add quads to more easily, and also have his PCS recover from their recent slump.
Yuzu's boost might be 2-3 points extra in PCS max, and that's only if the judges like it. If they don't his PCS would stay the same, or even drop again. --There is much less incentive and much more danger for him trying a new program at this point. However, this is not to denigrate those who choose a to skate new programs. I'm delighted and looking forward to Boyang, Nathan, Patrick and Javi's new programs. I also really like what I've seen of Jason's programs so far. But as a logical decision, Yuzu's plan seems solid.
This DOESN'T mean I think his gold is assured or anything. Yuzu can melt down with SEIMEI and Chopin if he gives into pressure. But his odds are better with these programs, that he'll be able to skate the well at the Olympics.

On a different note, I remember at the Sochi Men's event, many spectators were dissatisfied that the Long Program was such a splatfest. There were almost no clean performances.
What if, all this recycling caused a cleaner Olympic competition? Would that be better than all-new programs and a splatfest? Or a clean competition with fewer quads? What do we prefer? -just a thought experiment we could try.
Personally, for an Olympic event, recycling your best program, and having a clean-ish event would be fine with me.

I don't think having new programs compromises a cleanish event. After all, Hanyu recycled R&J and Chan recycled Elegie and other guys recycled their programs, too. And if the argument is that senior skaters don't have to improve their PCS the way up and coming skaters need to, shouldn't every one of the top guys recycle every program for the Olympics?

Some are arguing that the general public haven't seen these programs, so it'll be a surprise to them. Or that the judges won't recall these past programs. In that case, why not have everyone recycle their best/most comfortable programs from the past quadrennial, add harder jumps, and call it a day. Especially when it's less of a hassle/less of a risk than coming up with new programs.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I do not really think - especially based on how Yuzuru talks about his programs, approach on upcoming season - that this is needed in sport at all, but unfortunately it seems that some people desperately need it to prove that their say is the only right say. I understand that Yuzuru repeating program triggers comparisons to other skaters doing it/who done it already - this is inevitable and natural to expect, but crypto-shading other skater by saying e.g. that someone actually likes the idea of Yuzuru repeating programs, but cannot stand warhorses repeated, "Turandot" especially (this particular piece is not from here) is just too much sometimes.

Well, his doesn't surprise me if certain people have thrown shade at Uno for repeating Turandot (and don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of him doing it either), but have a double standard when it comes to Yuzuru or other skaters repeating past program. Basically, be consistent. If you're going to flay a skater for repeating a program, it should apply to all. Although, bringing back one program is far less unorthodox than bringing back two (and from the same season at that).

And to answer Andromache's comment, I would absolutely be fine with him bringing back just Seimei (thrilled, in fact - because yes, more people need to see that particular program). But he could have done something other than Chopin for his SP - it'll be his SP for 3 out of the past 4 seasons. He's not resting on his laurels (I mean, his difficulty will be cray), but he's certainly not challenging himself the way other guys showcasing new program(s) are.

 

[Yatagarasu]

well, Your comment is only a confirmation of what I think about this whole situation, so thanks a lot.

You're welcome, and also thanks for confirming you do cherry pick. Your words

any other opinion than being happy/excited/raving over Yuzuru repeating programs is usually taken as a hate/negativity or critique towards skater in so personal way.

So this is factually incorrect. The previous thread had some harsh words said about Yuzuru, so no, the commentators there did not take just "any" opinion negatively (as it was actually pointed out there).

The simple fact of the matter is that Yuzuru Hanyu does not owe you anything. Literally nothing. You are not his sponsors, not his coach, not his team. That you, or anyone else is disappointed, is your problem, not his.
And I actually, like many others, do not have an issue with this disappointment (or simple disagreement with repeated programs) being expressed. Quite a few Hanyu fans are disappointed as well; new programs are limited after all, especially as he's probably nearing retirement so there is that. Or simply put, they just dislike repeated programs. Or they disliked these particular programs, so are unhappy, even if usually repeating may not bother them. Many people, many reasons and this is all normal, we're human. Nobody will like everything, even as a fan, never mind if they're not.

This is all fine and well, and you'll find this talk has been going on since Chopin was announced. But there's a difference between that and either acting as if Yuzuru actually owes it to them to fulfill their desires or simply going after Yuzuru, as is par for the course for some. Not to mention, generalizing Hanyu fans, ignoring what is being written, etc.

And well, when you post your "'arbitrary individual' opinion" in which you paint an entire group of people with a certain brush, chances are, you'll get another "arbitrary individual opinion" as an answer.

 

[gkelly]

Some are arguing that the general public haven't seen these programs, so it'll be a surprise to them. Or that the judges won't recall these past programs. In that case, why not have everyone recycle their best/most comfortable programs from the past quadrennial, add harder jumps, and call it a day.

They all have that option available to them.

Why not allow each athlete to make the decision that works best for him or her?

Every-four-years audiences will be seeing almost all new-to-them programs in any case.

Whose responsibility should it be to make sure that avid fans are entertained with new programs from their favorite skaters every year? The individual skaters'? The judges', by penalizing repeats? The ISU technical committees? (well, the short dance requirements ensure that short dances don't often get recycled, but then you have the problem of multiple teams choosing the same music in the same year) The TV networks? (how?)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So? If classical music fans don't blame artists for repeating their repertoire despite the fact that they DO pay for the concert, why figure skating fans keep blaming skaters to repeat the programs that the skaters themselves pay for the training and choreography (not to mention the damage on their health). This is sport competition, where athletes pay for their dreams, not the audience.

So, would you be okay with a skater using the same programs for their entire career, and simply upgrade the elements from year to year? Because that would save a ton of money, and training time.

 

[chillgil]

at the end of the day figure skating is a sport that is comprised of fine art elements. This may be a little confusing to some but what this means is that when a skater finds a piece of music that they have been able to showcase said elements to the best of their abilities it would be stupid not to use it in the biggest competition of their lives. you can go on and on about "Artistic integrity" and "laziness" but the skaters do not owe you new programs, in fact the only thing they owe are good results and the only entity they owe anything to are to their own Feds.

as annoying or disappointing as it may be, having new or old programs do not affect a score just because they are either new or old.

that's just how it is

 

[gkelly]

So, would you be okay with a skater using the same programs for their entire career, and simply upgrade the elements from year to year? Because that would save a ton of money, and training time.

Worked for Dick Button.

 

[Violet Bliss]

So, would you be okay with a skater using the same programs for their entire career, and simply upgrade the elements from year to year? Because that would save a ton of money, and training time.

You have to ask Joubert if he saved a ton of money and training time.