2024-25 Rhythm Dance theme

[icewhite]

There will probably be a lot of discussions refining this year's theme at the ISU dance camps in Oberstdorf. After May 7, things will be done and there will probably be some scuttlebutt about what has been hashed out.

I'm not sure I will manage to get to Oberstdorf in time and intervene, but I will try!

Please ISU, come up with something sensible. That will do much more good to the sport than looking for some cringe short term audience pleasing.

 

[saine]

2024-25 technical rules are out. This has clarifications on the rhythm dance.

 

[icewhite]

God I can't describe how much I hate this.
I know it's just the rhythm dance theme and steps, but I hate it with all my heart. What a mess.

 

[icewhite]

I mean really, can someone explain this to me?

What does the Paso Doble have to do with Swing or Disco?
It's an entirely different rhythm and an entirely different history and an entirely different style?

Why would anyone recommend twist for ice dance where you are supposed to have holds and in general touching when twist is explicitly a dance where you do not touch?

Then the rules say "This season’s dance is not based on the Classical, Contemporary, Folk and Ballroom styles of dance". First, I thought that was exactly what ice dance was about: transferring ballroom onto the ice. Secondly, if you want to get away from that, okay, then why even still talk about Paso doble steps?

"identifiable 1950’s, 1960’s, 1970’s dance styles enjoyed by large groups of people"
"rooted in couple dancing"
rooted in couple dancing but enjoyed by large groups of people... what is that supposed to exclude? what do they want to achieve?

"The Rhythm Dance for the 2024/2025 season takes inspiration from the high energy and entertaining dance styles from these decades. These dance styles originated as a couple dance and due to their contagious, up beat rhythms, they became an invitation for others to join along in social settings and mass gatherings, becoming crowd pleaser favorites."

Aha. Have you ever seen what happens when there are these tango events where people publically dance tango? Still, how does the Paso Doble fit in?
Thanks for telling me what this is not supposed to be: classical, contemporary, folk or ballroom. Paso Doble is ballroom as far as I know, but please don't do paso doble to your paso doble steps. We already tuned down those steps as much as possible so you'd know. Oh, and don't think of doing discofox to your disco program please, that would be a very classic ballroom dance, and we don't want... anyway.

The main thing is that it's entertaining, because other dances are seemingly not as entertaining. Mambo for instance. Or Salsa. That's not what we want although those dances are dances popular or rising in the 50s-70s, but it's latin, so it's out - or is it? Maybe it's in? Maybe it's a partnered dance that makes people join? Does it? Is it entertaining enough? Is it "high energy" enough? Is it less high energy than the BeeGees? Shall we count the beats per minute? Oh, who cares about beats per minute, right? Just entertain the crowd with some silly lindy hop moves and we're fine! Oh, wait, actually there are beats per minute requirements. Why not leave it at that? Why all this nonsense talk about social this, social that, as if there was actually an "essence" of a decade, just because that's what you saw in the Hollywood movies with Elvis and Travolta.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I mean really, can someone explain this to me?

What does the Paso Doble have to do with Swing or Disco?
It's an entirely different rhythm and an entirely different history and an entirely different style?

Why would anyone recommend twist for ice dance where you are supposed to have holds and in general touching when twist is explicitly a dance where you do not touch?

Then the rules say "This season’s dance is not based on the Classical, Contemporary, Folk and Ballroom styles of dance". First, I thought that was exactly what ice dance was about: transferring ballroom onto the ice. Secondly, if you want to get away from that, okay, then why even still talk about Paso doble steps?

"identifiable 1950’s, 1960’s, 1970’s dance styles enjoyed by large groups of people"
"rooted in couple dancing"
rooted in couple dancing but enjoyed by large groups of people... what is that supposed to exclude? what do they want to achieve?

"The Rhythm Dance for the 2024/2025 season takes inspiration from the high energy and entertaining dance styles from these decades. These dance styles originated as a couple dance and due to their contagious, up beat rhythms, they became an invitation for others to join along in social settings and mass gatherings, becoming crowd pleaser favorites."

Aha. Have you ever seen what happens when there are these tango events where people publically dance tango? Still, how does the Paso Doble fit in?
Thanks for telling me what this is not supposed to be: classical, contemporary, folk or ballroom. Paso Doble is ballroom as far as I know, but please don't do paso doble to your paso doble steps. We already tuned down those steps as much as possible so you'd know. Oh, and don't think of doing discofox to your disco program please, that would be a very classic ballroom dance, and we don't want... anyway.

The main thing is that it's entertaining, because other dances are seemingly not as entertaining. Mambo for instance. Or Salsa. That's not what we want although those dances are dances popular or rising in the 50s-70s, but it's latin, so it's out - or is it? Maybe it's in? Maybe it's a partnered dance that makes people join? Does it? Is it entertaining enough? Is it "high energy" enough? Is it less high energy than the BeeGees? Shall we count the beats per minute? Oh, who cares about beats per minute, right? Just entertain the crowd with some silly lindy hop moves and we're fine! Oh, wait, actually there are beats per minute requirements. Why not leave it at that? Why all this nonsense talk about social this, social that, as if there was actually an "essence" of a decade, just because that's what you saw in the Hollywood movies with Elvis and Travolta.

Speaking as a longtime ballroom dance competitor as well as skater, the Paso Doble is definitely an official ballroom dance. For that matter, so is Swing. And Mambo. Salsa is borderline - not competed in Canada, but maybe in some other countries?

When we went to parties towards the end of this season's required era, most guests in our age group were either struggling with postgrad/med school/law school degrees or had babies and toddlers at home, or both, and were perpetually exhausted. Social dancing, if any, consisted of the hosts turning down the lights, putting on slow music, and letting the couples shuffle around hanging on each other's necks. Forget high energy .

The earlier decades, at high school sock hops? A next-generation version of our parents' jive or swing was pretty much it. The twist was forbidden at school dances.

I obviously went to the wrong parties. Seemed fun at the time, and had a satisfactory busy dating life, but never saw the inside of a disco except in movies. Glad I'm not an ice dancer for this season!

 

[gkelly]

I mean really, can someone explain this to me?

What does the Paso Doble have to do with Swing or Disco?

Nothing, really.

But the ISU wants to have some standardized steps that everyone has to do, so they can compare apples to apples for a part of the dance, the last remainder of the separate compulsory pattern dances.

I.e., the juniors have to do these exact steps
twice through (not necessarily consecutively), switching roles so that the man skates the woman's steps and vice versa one of those times.

The seniors just need to do a subset of the specified edges in that pattern, and in between they're supposed to make up their own steps to connect steps 16 and 26 of the set pattern.

The point is that everyone has to do that exact sequence of edges in that pattern, with each edge held for the specified number of counts.

That pattern was choreographed in the 1930s to be skated to Paso Doble music and has been used as a set pattern/compulsory dance to paso doble music ever since. The name of the pattern is Paso Doble.

However, for this Rhythm Dance, the skaters are supposed to use those steps but they're supposed to skate it to "any dance style with the range of tempo: 56 measures of 2 beats per minute" (juniors) or "any dance style – min 110 beats per min, in 2/2, 2/4 or 4/4 time" (seniors). The dance style chosen needs to fit into the “Social Dances and Styles of the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s” theme. Whatever music that the skaters choose needs to fit that timing and fit the Rhythm Dance theme. It should NOT be a Paso Doble music. The skaters should interpret the music that they choose according to appropriate interpretation of those 1950s, 60s, 70s dance styles. They just need to use the specified steps that are also used to paso doble music in a different context.

Why would anyone recommend twist for ice dance where you are supposed to have holds and in general touching when twist is explicitly a dance where you do not touch?

They'll have to find ways to do those moves in holds and/or to include them in the portions of the program where they are allowed/required not to be touching, e.g., the Step Sequence Not Touching.

For that reason, it would be unwise for teams to choose a Twist theme for the entire dance. We'll get medleys.

Then the rules say "This season’s dance is not based on the Classical, Contemporary, Folk and Ballroom styles of dance". First, I thought that was exactly what ice dance was about: transferring ballroom onto the ice.

They want social dance of the 1950s-60s era, with rhythms that were characteristic of those eras and aren't part of the standard "ballroom dance" syllabus. They don't want waltzes and foxtrots. They do want social dance, but the kinds of dances that were popular during the specified eras.

Secondly, if you want to get away from that, okay, then why even still talk about Paso doble steps?

As mentioned above, it's so that everyone will be doing the exact same steps for part of the dance, as a point of direct comparison.
Rather than making up a new sequence of steps that everyone has to do, they're choosing a sequence that all the ice dancers already know and telling them to repurpose these steps to a different kind of music.

But they won't be doing them to paso doble music with paso doble expression. They'll be expressing the rhythm of the 50s-60s-70s music that they choose.

Same as the seniors used steps from the Silver Samba last year when skating to 1980s music. They weren't supposed to be dancing a samba, they were supposed to be expressing whichever piece of 80s popular music that they chose. But the specific required steps were taken from a dance that was originally choreographed as a samba.

"identifiable 1950’s, 1960’s, 1970’s dance styles enjoyed by large groups of people"

"rooted in couple dancing"

rooted in couple dancing but enjoyed by large groups of people... what is that supposed to exclude? what do they want to achieve?

That's a little tricky.

In the specified eras, it became common for popular dancing to be done as individuals dancing solo or in groups rather than in dance holds as couples. So any kinds of dances that were popular at dances, parties, dance clubs/discos, etc., of that era are what is wanted.

However, ice dance requires couples skating in connection with each other for most of the program.

So the teams will need to find ways to interpret in dance holds dance styles that might have been more often danced solo or in larger groups at the times they were popular.

Shall we count the beats per minute? Oh, who cares about beats per minute, right?

The ISU cares when it comes to the pattern dance portion of the RD because the requirements for the set pattern steps are that the edges are each held for a set amount of time. If the tempo were significantly slowed down (or sped up), the teams would not be demonstrating the same mastery of those steps and their respective timing.

For the rest of the dance, the non-pattern-dance elements and the in-between skating, the beats per minute are not specified.

Why all this nonsense talk about social this, social that, as if there was actually an "essence" of a decade, just because that's what you saw in the Hollywood movies with Elvis and Travolta.

The theme of this year's RD is social dances of the 1950s, 60s, and 70s.

That's less specific than, e.g., "Latin dance" or "Memories of a Grand Ball."

As you point out, Latin dances like mambo were popular during that era, so I won't be surprised if we see some.

The competitive teams and the younger coaches may need to consult movies for examples of how people were dancing at parties and clubs in those eras. Older coaches may remember their own social dance experience from their youth.

 

[icewhite]

Nothing, really.

But the ISU wants to have some standardized steps that everyone has to do, so the can compare apples to apples for a part of the dance, the last remainder of the separate compulsory pattern dances.

I.e., the juniors have to do these exact steps
twice through (not necessarily consecutively), switching roles so that the man skates the woman's steps and vice versa one of those times.

The seniors just need to do a subset of the specified edges in that pattern, and in between they're supposed to make up their own steps to connect steps 16 and 26 of the set pattern.

The point is that everyone has to do that exact sequence of edges in that pattern, with each edge held for the specified number of counts.

That pattern was choreographed in the 1930s to be skated to Paso Doble music and has been used as a set pattern/compulsory dance to paso doble music ever since. The name of the pattern is Paso Doble.

However, for this Rhythm Dance, the skaters are supposed to use those steps but they're supposed to skate it to "any dance style with the range of tempo: 56 measures of 2 beats per minute" (juniors) or "any dance style – min 110 beats per min, in 2/2, 2/4 or 4/4 time" (seniors). The dance style chosen needs to fit into the “Social Dances and Styles of the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s” theme. Whatever music that the skaters choose needs to fit that timing and fit the Rhythm Dance theme. It should NOT be a Paso Doble music. The skaters should interpret the music that they choose according to appropriate interpretation of those 1950s, 60s, 70s dance styles. They just need to use the specified steps that are also used to paso doble music in a different context.



They'll have to find ways to do those moves in holds and/or to include them in the portions of the program where they are allowed/required not to be touching, e.g., the Step Sequence Not Touching.

For that reason, it would be unwise for teams to choose a Twist theme for the entire dance. We'll get medleys.



They want social dance of the 1950s-60s era, with rhythms that were characteristic of those eras and aren't part of the standard "ballroom dance" syllabus. They don't want waltzes and foxtrots. They do want social dance, but the kinds of dances that were popular during the specified eras.



As mentioned above, it's so that everyone will be doing the exact same steps for part of the dance, as a point of direct comparison.
Rather than making up a new sequence of steps that everyone has to do, they're choosing a sequence that all the ice dancers already know and telling them to repurpose these steps to a different kind of music.



Same as the seniors used steps from the Silver Samba last year when skating to 1980s music. They weren't supposed to be dancing a samba, they were supposed to be expressing whichever piece of 80s popular music that they chose. But the specific required steps were taken from a dance that was originally choreographed as a samba.



That's a little tricky.

In the specified eras, it became common for popular dancing to be done as individuals dancing solo or in groups rather than in dance holds as couples. So any kinds of dances that were popular at dances, parties, dance clubs/discos, etc., of that era are what is wanted.

However, ice dance requires couples skating in connection with each other for most of the program.

So the teams will need to find ways to interpret in dance holds dance styles that might have been more often danced solo or in larger groups at the times they were popular.



The ISU cares when it comes to the pattern dance portion of the RD because the requirements for the set pattern steps are that the edges are each held for a set amount of time. If the tempo were significantly slowed down (or sped up), the teams would not be demonstrating the same mastery of those steps and their respective timing.

For the rest of the dance, the non-pattern-dance elements and the in-between skating, the beats per minute are not specified.



The theme of this year's RD is social dances of the 1950s, 60s, and 70s.

That's less specific than, e.g., "Latin dance" or "Memories of a Grand Ball."

As you point out, latin dances like mambo were popular during that era, so I won't be surprised if we see some.

The competitive teams and the younger coaches may need to consult movies for examples of how people were dancing at parties and clubs in those eras. Older coaches may remember their own social dance experience from their youth.

Thank you for your answer. I fear though most of my questions were rhethorical. For me this is all a mess. I don't think it makes any sense at all. They want a certain outcome - engaging, fun, high energy programs that get everyone going - and try to mix it with musical requirements, step patterns and superficial social/cultural sciences one liners, trying to have everything at once, but the result is like chocolated lasagna with mixed pickles.
You are right, they will want people to consult movies. But movies only tell a certain story, especially when there is some huge cultural hegemony. The 80s theme was already very badly thought through, and now it just gets worse.

 

[gkelly]

Well, it used to be that all the dance teams had to do the exact same compulsory/pattern dances as the first part of the competition, and then since the 1970s there was a second part of the competition where they were given a specific rhythm and required to make up their own steps in a pattern that would go around the ice and be repeated (Original Set Pattern) and later their own steps with certain requirements and restrictions (Original Dance).

Beginning in 2000, the themes were groups of related dance styles/rhythms rather than just one specific rhythm.

And then in 2011 the pattern dance and original dance were combined into a single competition phase. I think that was mosty due to pressure from the IOC.

Meanwhile, they're trying to open up to more variety of program themes while still keeping to the social dance basis of where ice dance came from. So when the program themes/rhythms don't match any of the established pattern dances that are already on the books, in order to have some pattern dance steps as a required element within the Rhythm Dance, they have to use patterns that were originally designed for a different rhythm.

The alternative would be to have no compulsory steps at all (they're getting closer to that for seniors, but not quite there yet) or to make up a new sequence of steps each year and publish it so that all teams would be required to learn them.

Back in the 1990s, I once asked a dance judge what the reason was for one of the few requirements of the Original Dance at that time (that it had to progress counterclockwise around the rink and not cross the midline except at the end). His response was "Just so that it would have some structure."

For all the requirements, both the elements like lifts and synchronized twizzles and also the rhythm theme, the point is to have some structure that all teams have to follow. The required steps of the required pattern are one more requirement, and it is only those required steps that have specific timing required.

They're not ready to make the rhythm dance into a shorter free dance where the only requirement is "Have fun."

 

[icewhite]

Well, it used to be that all the dance teams had to do the exact same compulsory/pattern dances as the first part of the competition, and then since the 1970s there was a second part of the competition where they were given a specific rhythm and required to make up their own steps in a pattern that would go around the ice and be repeated (Original Set Pattern) and later their own steps with certain requirements and restrictions (Original Dance).

Beginning in 2000, the themes were groups of related dance styles/rhythms rather than just one specific rhythm.

And then in 2011 the pattern dance and original dance were combined into a single competition phase. I think that was mosty due to pressure from the IOC.

Meanwhile, they're trying to open up to more variety of program themes while still keeping to the social dance basis of where ice dance came from. So when the program themes/rhythms don't match any of the established pattern dances that are already on the books, in order to have some pattern dance steps as a required element within the Rhythm Dance, they have to use patterns that were originally designed for a different rhythm.

The alternative would be to have no compulsory steps at all (they're getting closer to that for seniors, but not quite there yet) or to make up a new sequence of steps each year and publish it so that all teams would be required to learn them.

Back in the 1990s, I once asked a dance judge what the reason was for one of the few requirements of the Original Dance at that time (that it had to progress counterclockwise around the rink and not cross the midline except at the end). His response was "Just so that it would have some structure."

For all the requirements, both the elements like lifts and synchronized twizzles and also the rhythm theme, the point is to have some structure that all teams have to follow. The required steps of the required pattern are one more requirement, and it is only those required steps that have specific timing required.

They're not ready to make the rhythm dance into a shorter free dance where the only requirement is "Have fun."

Having pattern steps/compulsary steps makes sense. It makes the utmost sense to me. I don't want to get rid of them. At all.
I want to get rid of the other nonsense - decades. Wishy washy themes. Babbling about the "essence" of a decade, inventing themes in a global sport with a very specific cultural background in mind, lines that sound like they were made up by a PR company, pretending that this is somehow linked to cultural studies and has some value in terms of social critique (was it Weaver talking about "women's rights" in the 80s topic?) and not just a desperate attempt to get viewers. I don't want requirements that are everything and nothing at the same time.
I want steps that are either not linked to any dance at all - simple technical requirements, specific beats that are just - beats, or I want something that's a real classic ballroom dance for the sake of the history of the discipline and its difference from the other ones.

Oof, I guess I really needed to vent.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

The alternative would be to have no compulsory steps at all (they're getting closer to that for seniors, but not quite there yet) or to make up a new sequence of steps each year and publish it so that all teams would be required to learn them.

I actually really like this idea. It's interesting to see people get to grips with a sequence of steps that isn't optimised to highlight their strengths/weaknesses (which tends to happen in the free dance). Is there anything major that would make this difficult to implement, besides time and effort?

I'm too young to remember when the last few pattern dances were still being created, but I imagine that time must have been exciting in a way - a bit like when ballet choreographers or musical composers premiere new pieces. Unless the piece is self-created, the performer/s have to convey the essence of someone else's artistic vision, with some leeway to add their own interpretation. In competitions like the Prix de Lausanne, contestants pick from a limited pool of repertory pieces, and you sometimes get multiple dancers doing the same variation. Yet it's still quite fun to watch. I imagine the situation might be similar with e.g. piano competitions?

Having pattern steps/compulsary steps makes sense. It makes the utmost sense to me. I don't want to get rid of them. At all.
I want to get rid of the other nonsense - decades. Wishy washy themes. Babbling about the "essence" of a decade, inventing themes in a global sport with a very specific cultural background in mind, lines that sound like they were made up by a PR company, pretending that this is somehow linked to cultural studies and has some value in terms of social critique (was it Weaver talking about "women's rights" in the 80s topic?) and not just a desperate attempt to get viewers. I don't want requirements that are everything and nothing at the same time.
I want steps that are either not linked to any dance at all - simple technical requirements, specific beats that are just - beats, or I want something that's a real classic ballroom dance for the sake of the history of the discipline and its difference from the other ones.

Oof, I guess I really needed to vent.

Yes, I'm afraid that with the decades theme although they don't specify a particular culture/geographical location you still need to come up with something that judges/audience will recognise as emblematic of that decade's social dances/music (most likely Western/European), or risk not fulfilling the requirements.
Incidentally, the 50s/60s were a pretty rough time in East Asia. Mass famines, WWII aftermath-related conflicts, dictatorships and so on. I'm pretty sure my granddad didn't do much social dancing as a political prisoner

I'm a fan of Kaitlyn Weaver's skating/choreography but I'm not quite onboard with a lot of the technical committee stuff.
On the bright side at least with the Paso they have a pattern than isn't broken up and put together in random ways like the Silver Samba was this past season, so it's a sign they are listening to feedback.

 

[el henry]

I did a quick search but could not find the information.

Who are the members of whatever committee draft these proposals? What countries/areas/regions do they represent?

 

[Andrea82]

I did a quick search but could not find the information.

Who are the members of whatever committee draft these proposals? What countries/areas/regions do they represent?

The ISU Ice Dance Technical Committee is compared by

Chair (elected at ISU Congress): Shawn Rettstatt (USA)
Members (elected at ISU Congress): Hilary Selby (Great Britain), David Molina (France), Ingrid Charlotte Wolter (Germany)
Appointed skater: Kaitlyn Weaver (Canada)
Appointed coach: Alper Ucar (Turkey)

 

[gkelly]

I actually really like this idea. It's interesting to see people get to grips with a sequence of steps that isn't optimised to highlight their strengths/weaknesses (which tends to happen in the free dance). Is there anything major that would make this difficult to implement, besides time and effort?

Mainly time and effort. And assigning someone to make up the steps, but perhaps without being too tied to a particular musical rhythm.

I'm too young to remember when the last few pattern dances were still being created,

The most recent was the Teatime Foxtrot

Tea-Time Foxtrot – Ice-dance.com

www.ice-dance.com

Ice Dance Rhythm Dance | ISU World Junior Figure Skating Championships | #WorldJFigure

To license ISU footage: https://bit.ly/3M7bcaF Visit https://www.isu.org/ for more information.SUBSCRIBE to our channel:https://www.youtube.com/SkatingISU?su...

www.youtube.com

But since it was only used in junior competition during a pandemic year, it's not surprising it might be forgotten.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Mainly time and effort. And assigning someone to make up the steps, but perhaps without being too tied to a particular musical rhythm.


The most recent was the Teatime Foxtrot

Tea-Time Foxtrot – Ice-dance.com

www.ice-dance.com

Ice Dance Rhythm Dance | ISU World Junior Figure Skating Championships | #WorldJFigure

To license ISU footage: https://bit.ly/3M7bcaF Visit https://www.isu.org/ for more information.SUBSCRIBE to our channel:https://www.youtube.com/SkatingISU?su...

www.youtube.com

But since it was only used in junior competition during a pandemic year, it's not surprising it might be forgotten.

Right! I'd forgotten about that one. Now I remember they even had an educational seminar that year with Kaliszek/Spodyriev demonstrating, to help teams understand the technical details of the pattern.

Tea-Time Foxtrot Seminar: Videos from Detroit

To assist Coaches, Ice Dance Couples and Officials to learn the new Pattern Dance, the Tea-Time Foxtrot, we are pleased to announce that selected videos from the Seminar held in Detroit are now available on the ISU Development Youtube Channel.

www.goldenskate.com

I guess a potential issue with using the Tea Time Foxtrot or Maple Leaf March soon after they were created was the fact that both originating teams were still competing at the time, so they (or skaters with ready access to the coaching/choreography team who created the dances) might have had an advantage over the field. Assigning Tea Time Foxtrot to juniors avoided that problem. If a new pattern were to be made up each season, it would probably have to come from a 'neutral' creator (perhaps a coach/choreographer without major eligible skaters, utilising a retired/professional team for demonstrations).

It's a bit fiddly but doesn't seem like an insurmountable obstacle to create some new patterns - perhaps a petition and/or crowdfund might help