What are "good" skating skills?

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thanks for the clarification! Wow, I didn't know Alex was taller than Scott and Charlie
I wish I had been able to see these teams live when they were still competing...

I actually came back and re-read my post and turns out my dyslexia kicked in and I put things backwards and made scott shorter than charlie and he's not LOL. He's 5'10.5"/5"11. I need to go correct that post, but it still doesn't change what I said about there not being a huge difference.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

This is hardly a first time, a significant chunk of skaters are made to practice their jumps landing in a frame or with their arms still in even on their harder jumps because to stop that level of rotation consistently you need to learn to control your core. What he did is essentially a 1 armed version of this with his free side arm.

Pretty obvious, no skater mentioned in this thread has these characteristics?

This is clearly false, Jason brown and Patrick chan both have superior ice coverage and speed to Yuzuru Hanyu later in his career a characteristic which did deteriorate as it progressed whereas the two aforementioned skaters have only gotten better as their career progressed. The depth of edge between Patrick and Jason is also substantially better than Yuzuru Hanyu which can most predominantly be seen in steps because of the lack of speed he cannot hold a deep edge for a long portion of time or perform a turn off of it

1) Oooh, really, please please please tell me who else landed a 3A this way! Even if you remember only the person and the program I can search and embed the video here.

2) One has.

3) Huh? Could you please substantiate this bold assertion? And what do you call speed, by the way? If it's running at constant speed from a jump to another, this is not really the objective of figure skating. To the contrary, the skater ought to change speed often, and show mastery in these speed changes. Yuzuru Hanyu demonstrated to the utmost this capacity, by skating to a "real" great interpretation of Chopin's 1st Ballade, played specially for him by the reference, Krystian Zimerman, who knew that he had sufficient command of his speed to adjust it perfectly to the variable speed of a great interpretation of a Chopin masterpiece. As a reference, Patrick Chan, though excellent, when he skated to Chopin, which so very few can do creditably (not even Mao Asada), had to choose pieces played with a flat tempo. Yuzuru Hanyu was already doing things most people (including me) thought impossible in Figure Skating.

I take the opportunity, as I noticed it after unlogging and couldn't come back immediately, to tell that the chief and most striking first in Rondo, is to have only 6 crossovers. Most top Men skaters have 20 to 25 crossovers in a Short Program, that's the case with the three other Olympians in Roseline Winter's thread (in my previous message). Yuzuru Hanyu, since 2014, had already lowered this: his Short Programs had only 12 to 13 crossovers, and nobody matched it. Then came Rondo... Only one crossover to take the speed for each jump pass... He had had "3As out of nowhere" for a long time, but for quads it was completely new; and unheard of, of course.

Post Scriptum: Yuzuru Hanyu's last program has zero crossover, but it's not a competitive program, and it has no quadruple jump. It is a very difficult program though, with several other "first time" instances:

 

[eclipse]

1) Oooh, really, please please please tell me who else landed a 3A this way! Even if you remember only the person and the program I can search and embed the video here.

Look through any major American coaches/teams and you will see a variety of jumps taught this way, it isn't a method used in competition as it provides no benefit to the skater and may result in a reduction of GOE due to a poor landing position presentation.

I am classifying speed as highest speed attained and sustained with control, I don't want the skater to have full speed throughout the entire program which you would be very lucky to hear that neither those skaters do as both have a very strong sense of musicality especially when it comes to using their edges and turns to do so. With regards to to music cuts I believe that can be more so accredited to the fact Yuzuru has always had a focus on his music and building from that vs most skaters who unsurprisingly pick their music based on their preference and what would be easier to skate to. There is no benefit to Patrick picking a more dynamic version of Chopin as he was already receiving incredible PCS, though I am sure as seen with his other programs he varies his tempo and speed incredibly he would be able to pull off a very similar feat of interpretation if not do it even better. With Jason, he has always been incredibly musical and has had a wide range of theme in his music and shown his ability to interpret all of them and perform them with the audience involved something which Yuzuru Hanyu frankly struggles with, let me entertain you still struggles to get the audience in the program as noted multiple times he is reserved when it comes to involving the audience, his gaze is often at the ice.

Number of crossovers doesn't represent anything in the slightest, Yuzuru's program was hindered by the fact he was so insistent on keeping it to a minimum frankly, it meant he lost a lot of ice coverage for nothing more than a number. He also doesn't really keep it that low, he used a much higher umber of cross unders and step overs which are just essentially half crossovers in their place which aren't as efficient to generate speed as a crossover which is a foundational skating move for a reason. Crossovers are a good thing if use well, they show very good control of edges to generate speed, can prove a skater has finished lines and complete pushes as seen with Jason brown who uses a variation of types of runs, crossovers and pushes during sections where he wants to demonstrate speed.

 

[yesterday]

(not directed at anybody specifically)
Please do not let this thread develop into some kind of childish fight about whose favourite skater is better at this or that.

To me, the thread demonstrates that - and maybe this also answers part of OPs question - skating skills among the sport we all love so much, is probably the most subjective/controversially judged aspect.

 

[eclipse]

Post Scriptum: Yuzuru Hanyu's last program has zero crossover, but it's not a competitive program, and it has no quadruple jump. It is a very difficult program though, with several other "first time" instances:

12... it had 12 "Crossovers" (I use this loosely for anyone who follows ice dance as I am including progressives in this). They were just small and rather unfinished but it really doesn't matter because the point of the program was entertainment not an exercise in crossover reduction.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

So, your theory is that other skaters can land a 3A with an arm on the chest? But who? And that they don't do it in competition because it wouldn't bring them points? Which coaches?

Your second paragraph includes two major contradictions and a very strange final claim, quoting a program which was skated competitively only twice, amid CoViD measures, in spite of which Stockholm Ericsson Globe sounded as if there was public, thanks to his ability to engage all participants, staff... who were there?

Then the last straw...

Number of crossovers doesn't represent anything in the slightest

I'm sorry, I may be a dummy, an ignorant layperson, I feel a bit too so to write in a thread dedicated to skating skills, but this is so blatantly false that I wonder why you are writing here? Need I go on?

 

[eclipse]

So, your theory is that other skaters can land a 3A with an arm on the chest? But who? And that they don't do it in competition because it wouldn't bring them points? Which coaches?

Your second paragraph includes two major contradictions and a very strange final claim, quoting a program which was skated competitively only twice, amid CoViD measures, in spite of which Stockholm Ericsson Globe sounded as if there was public, thanks to his ability to engage all participants, staff... who were there?

Then the last straw...

I'm sorry, I may be a dummy, an ignorant layperson, I feel a bit too so to write in a thread dedicated to skating skills, but this is so blatantly false that I wonder why you are writing here? Need I go on?

It isn't even a theory I know ex-elite level skaters turned coaches who could land triple axels with both arms on their chest who competed years ago long since Hanyu even began competing Seniors. Nowhere in GOE bullets does it say that landing with your arms in increases your GOE, in fact for most judges it would look unfinished as they are looking for complete extension through to the fingers and toes.

If you would like to address the contradictions I supposedly made I would be happy to clarify any misunderstandings. Then if it has only been skated twice competitively disqualifies it from criticism how come in your mind was Yuzuru able to refine rondo which was only skated twice competitively. You also cannot act as if Covid had much of an effect on his ability to practice and train, he would have been propped up heavily by the Japanese federation considering he is a two time Olympic Gold Medalist. I just rewatched it and quite frankly it sounds exactly how you described it, just the staff members which is to be expected as it is considered polite to show support to the skater in such way, in fact all the other skaters received a similar level of attention.



To spell it out for you, LOTS OF INEFFICENT CROSSOVERS SHOWS POOR SKATING SKILLS, A NORMAL NUMBER OF VARIED, WELL PRESENTED AND EFFICIENT CROSSOVERS SHOWS GOOD SKATING SKILLS AT THE MOST BASIC LEVEL. Yuzuru took this as an extreme when he has average crossovers at best for no real reason, which then has a detriment to his overall speed. If you really want me to analyse his crossovers for you, Yuzuru has shallower than ideal knee bend, doesn't completely roll through to the toe and does not step wide to generate more power (can be seen by the fact he never actually gets on two inside edges prior to drawing his feet together and is at most on a flat or at least on an instance where I can recall)

Unlike you I feel qualified to speak on this topic as I have taken my time to educate myself using information provided by my own coach, Olympic level coaches and other skaters. I unlike you also seem to actually skate as you called yourself an ignorant layperson.

 

[gliese]

Keep in mind we can't inherently just look at ice dancers to talk about what is good. Things are often judged completely differently. Ice dance choreography is completely different. I'm a senior level solo dancer with generally clean turns (obviously not olympic level or anything) and if I do a step sequence choreographed for singles, oftentimes I lose the ability to do clean turns because ice dance choreography is designed to make clean turns the priority and singles choreography is not. I skate with lots of top singles skaters whose turns are literally amazing in an isolated exercise (for example perfect rockers when just doing a rocker on its own) but then it goes into a step sequence and the nature of the choreography makes it shaky.

I'm aware that we aren't just talking about turns, it's just the easiest example.

 

[gliese]

So, your theory is that other skaters can land a 3A with an arm on the chest? But who? And that they don't do it in competition because it wouldn't bring them points? Which coaches?

Skaters have been doing this for decades. It does not bring extra points in competition and looks a little silly because anyone who has skated for a considerable amount of time know's it's an exercise, not a finished product.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

(not directed at anybody specifically)
Please do not let this thread develop into some kind of childish fight about whose favourite skater is better at this or that.

YES.

Keep in mind we can't inherently just look at ice dancers to talk about what is good. Things are often judged completely differently. Ice dance choreography is completely different. I'm a senior level solo dancer with generally clean turns (obviously not olympic level or anything) and if I do a step sequence choreographed for singles, oftentimes I lose the ability to do clean turns because ice dance choreography is designed to make clean turns the priority and singles choreography is not. I skate with lots of top singles skaters whose turns are literally amazing in an isolated exercise (for example perfect rockers when just doing a rocker on its own) but then it goes into a step sequence and the nature of the choreography makes it shaky.

I'm aware that we aren't just talking about turns, it's just the easiest example.

Thanks, it's a good example. I was wondering why some skaters who do/did both disciplines (e.g. Bruce Waddell, Corey Circelli) don't always ace their singles step sequences but this helps to explain it. Besides the mental and physical drain of fitting in lots of jumps of course!

Do the level requirements for singles (e.g. upper body movement, fitting in all required turn clusters) play a role in making it harder to maintain turn quality?

 

[icewhite]

I'm not sure much of this is helpful for someone who wants to understand skating skills. The ISU videos are okay, but I don't know if they really explain a lot, I don't think so.
As someone who has never skated on a higher level herself I know how difficult it can be to see and understand some things. I saw more the more I watched, but some things still remain a mystery to me.
I think best would be videos of specific skaters and an unbiased and detailed explanation and comparison, but I don't know if such exist.

I'm not new to the sport, but I truly don't understand what good skating skills are. I know when a skater is going fast or awkwardly slow, but I don't know what the back position is supposed to look like. I don't know what "pumping" is, or what "shallow edges" are. I don't know how long a skater is supposed to remain on one foot before it's considered amazing. Truly can't even tell what is a level 2 footwork or a level 4! All I see on this topic is fighting amongst fans. Surely great skating skills is a straight Yes or No answer?
There are tons of detailed videos explaining what a Lutz is, or what pre-quarter rotation is. But NONE on good SS. I keep checking YouTube videos (Kiki the Red Panda, On Ice Perspectives, We Love Skating, figureskatingtea, Deep Outside Edge, etc.) to see if someone has posted a video on SS. But there's nothing. Please help!

I don't think "great" skating skills are a straight yes or no. It's absolutely gradual, and then there's also the thing that often the factors are combined, but not always. Strong skaters still have relative strengths or weaknesses and sometimes it's a question on where you put the emphasis.

There are videos to teach the judges, but I don't know if they are public and if yes where they can be found. Someone else here will likely know?

 

[kolyadafan2002]

YES.

Thanks, it's a good example. I was wondering why some skaters who do/did both disciplines (e.g. Bruce Waddell, Corey Circelli) don't always ace their singles step sequences but this helps to explain it. Besides the mental and physical drain of fitting in lots of jumps of course!

Do the level requirements for singles (e.g. upper body movement, fitting in all required turn clusters) play a role in making it harder to maintain turn quality?

From my experience:

Yes, and also the body movement itself is subjective I've seen step sequences which have enough body movement get lvl 3 because the tech panel didn't consider it difficult enough.

also in singles skating there is a high importance on clusters for the levels. And you now can only repeat one turn from one cluster to the next. Many ice dancers struggle to do loopsteps (simply because they don't train them). Whenever I've constructed singles step sequences, I've always followed the philosophy of having the easiest possible clusters and then difficulty of rest of the turns throughout.

I want to add, even in separated turn exercises I don't see many singles skaters do 100% clean turns - purely as singles coaches generally define clean differently to ID coaches. However, many rinks have ID coaches teach SS to singles skaters, and there I see more clean turns.

Tech panels also look for different things. I've never actually met somebody who can do a 100% clean bracket at high speed. Some tech panels never call them in ID, some look at the flow in and out of the turn, some offer some leeway (marginal - if it looks clean they call it clean).
In singles there's a lot more leeway with brackets + generally done at slightly slower speed/with less focus on flow).

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

It isn't even a theory I know ex-elite level skaters turned coaches who could land triple axels with both arms on their chest who competed years ago long since Hanyu even began competing Seniors. Nowhere in GOE bullets does it say that landing with your arms in increases your GOE, in fact for most judges it would look unfinished as they are looking for complete extension through to the fingers and toes.

If you would like to address the contradictions I supposedly made I would be happy to clarify any misunderstandings. Then if it has only been skated twice competitively disqualifies it from criticism how come in your mind was Yuzuru able to refine rondo which was only skated twice competitively. You also cannot act as if Covid had much of an effect on his ability to practice and train, he would have been propped up heavily by the Japanese federation considering he is a two time Olympic Gold Medalist. I just rewatched it and quite frankly it sounds exactly how you described it, just the staff members which is to be expected as it is considered polite to show support to the skater in such way, in fact all the other skaters received a similar level of attention.



To spell it out for you, LOTS OF INEFFICENT CROSSOVERS SHOWS POOR SKATING SKILLS, A NORMAL NUMBER OF VARIED, WELL PRESENTED AND EFFICIENT CROSSOVERS SHOWS GOOD SKATING SKILLS AT THE MOST BASIC LEVEL. Yuzuru took this as an extreme when he has average crossovers at best for no real reason, which then has a detriment to his overall speed. If you really want me to analyse his crossovers for you, Yuzuru has shallower than ideal knee bend, doesn't completely roll through to the toe and does not step wide to generate more power (can be seen by the fact he never actually gets on two inside edges prior to drawing his feet together and is at most on a flat or at least on an instance where I can recall)

Unlike you I feel qualified to speak on this topic as I have taken my time to educate myself using information provided by my own coach, Olympic level coaches and other skaters. I unlike you also seem to actually skate as you called yourself an ignorant layperson.

First I'm quoting your previous message, then I answer this.

The first contradiction I saw, now I see more as a misunderstanding of what I had written, although I believe I had been clear. If you please could read what I write (and, in return, tell me if I misunderstand something from you), I would be quite grateful.

With regards to to music cuts I believe that can be more so accredited to the fact Yuzuru has always had a focus on his music and building from that vs most skaters who unsurprisingly pick their music based on their preference and what would be easier to skate to.

You were speaking of Interpretation, weren't you? I was expressly addressing Skating Skills. If Krystian Zimerman played tempo rubato, it's because he knew that Yuzuru Hanyu's skating skills, unlike any other's, could adapt to it. It's true that a number of skaters have a great musicality and may have been able to dance to such a music off-ice, but on-ice it was probably thought impossible because of the permanent precise moves of the feet it requires. It's just mind-blowing skating skills, which only Yuzuru Hanyu could pull off, and it also requires a lot of energy, I agree, but that's the same with all elements and components: the efficient effort a skater puts into will limit the rest of his components or elements, and it ought to be reflected in scores, encouraging skaters to get the best balance to maximise fair scores. Here, we are speaking of skating skills shown in a program, and the effects on other elements or components of the endeavour puts into them, seems to me a bit on the side. Now, if you know of a program from Patrick Chan where he skates to a tempo rubato, I'd be thankful if you post it here, first because it would be very relevant to the thread (as an example of the best skating skills), secondly because I would probably delight in watching it in loop. I DO NOT MEAN a one-off change of rhythm or two: all skaters with good skating skills can do it creditably, and even some with very unequal skating skills. I'm speaking of progressive and both ways permanent changes of rhythm, it's a bit the difference in Maths/Logics between discrete and continuous, here in acceleration mostly.

There is no benefit to Patrick picking a more dynamic version of Chopin as he was already receiving incredible PCS,

Are you accusing Patrick Chan of having deliberately skated easier programs, knowing that a flawed judging would give him the scores he would have deserved with more difficult program? In my opinion it's rather unsubstantiated. I rather see his programs as a show-off of what he could do, particularly in his strong point, skating skills, and it was wonderful. Do you have a program of his, even non-competitive, where he's doing better?

First part I highlighted (in bold):
Who? I have asked you, you have not answered.

Second part I highlighted:
You didn't read correctly. The element affecting engagement with the public with CoViD measures was that the public was limited by a low gauge and prohibited to react (All-Japan Nationals 2020), a ban lifted no earlier than last February; and there was no public allowed in the huge Ericsson Globe. It had nothing to do with the fact that it was the first or second outing, of course: Yuzuru Hanyu's exceptional ability to engage the public doesn't need multiple outings. Jason Brown's are excellent, he's one of the best there, but not really comparable. May I add that I find that your choice of a program which was skated only with public restrictions in force, as an example of his lesser ability of engaging the public, is... interesting? If it is your own find, you may question your impartiality (I know that nobody's really impartial); if you're repeating another's take, you may question theirs, and their credibility. As from the last words of this paragraph apparently you still haven't understood that at Stockholm 2021 public was not allowed in (I tried to go there), it's probably the latter. Absent public couldn't react but staff, other skaters and all, had rapturous reactions, to the point that it nearly felt like if there was a public. It was perhaps not the best Worlds Men's event in the Century overall, but you can check by yourself (if you find the whole video, which I don't, I can see a reason) in comparing with other skaters.

Third part highlighted:
I see no example of your first instance among top Men. I see a few in the past years among top Women only. As to your second instance, I see only one Man in the top who has this and no more (Nathan Chen) : as you say, it's considered basic skating; all others, whose skating skills don't allow them to lower the number of (efficient) crossovers, manage to skate them elegantly, or even to hide some, which is expected at this level. Yuzuru Hanyu has always had super-efficient crossovers, this is what now allows him to jump a 4T or a 4S with the speed taken from only one crossover, years after managing this for 3As. Lowering the number of crossovers, managing to take one's speed from more refined steps, even from complex steps (which with all other skaters rather lower the speed) shows outstanding skating skills.

Fourth part highlighted:
Yuzuru Hanyu's knee bend, though not quite as deep as Patrick Chan's, is I believe the optimum for his figure. If you want to see someone with stiff knees... I think you have guessed who. And he has also optimised the foot positions so as to make them more efficient, that's why, even at 17, Tracy Wilson (who didn't know she was to coach him later) could say that with two crossovers he was reaching the other end of the rink, while still saying that he was "raw".

Fifth part highlighted:
As, alas, more than one other person. I believe you (sigh). "There is something rotten in the US skating kingdom". If people you believe to be qualified tell you things that look really wrong, the right thing is to try to make it out. All bad coaches (be them of Olympic level) have narratives to justify their poor coaching. And that's not only in Figure Skating, but sometimes I wonder if there's not more of it in Figure Skating than in many other domains.

Sorry I've taken too long for one message, I must go!

 

[4everchan]

Are you accusing Patrick Chan of having deliberately skated easier programs, knowing that a flawed judging would give him the scores he would have deserved with more difficult program? In my opinion it's rather unsubstantiated. I rather see his programs as a show-off of what he could do, particularly in his strong point, skating skills, and it was wonderful. Do you have a program of his, even non-competitive, where he's doing better?

??? this is Patrick's Chopin is a masterpiece of choreography and interpretation. Chopin's music can be played differently by different pianists... some only see the shallow virtuosity of it.. because of the flourishes... others do it justice and make the piano sing at all times. Patrick's skating is very lyrical in his Chopin program and to me, shows he understands the music. His 4CC performance remains the ultimate interpretation by a figure skater of Chopin in my opinion. His skating is all about the music and in this case, it's not a flaw... It's the old concept of " less is more" ... and it's not like he is doing nothing !
I won't get into a debate about other skaters, but I guess this thread is very relevant because some people seem to confuse skating skills, a deep level of interpretation and performance versus showmanship. Patrick can be a showman (in galas for instance) but understood how to skate to the pieces that were put together for his Chopin. Also, the pieces were well "glued" together and created a real Chopin experience. It's not always the case in recent Chopin programs.... You have heard me loud and clear about this in the past, so I will just stick to the topic. I have seen a bunch of skaters live and Patrick can generate speed and flow with only a couple strokes like no others.. It is actually extremely difficult to skate like this and this is why some skaters will chose to include more small turns and steps and overload the programs with transitions. While they do this, it camouflages that lack of ease and power obtained by really good technique. It is actually them who are, in my opinion, taking advantage of the judging system.

 

[icewhite]

Is this really about Chan vs. Hanyu now?
They are both amazing! skaters with amazing skating skills, why do we need to put the other one down?
They are definitely different from each other.
In general the concept of "great skating skills" in North America and especially in Canada I think focusses very much on stroking, gliding and soft knees, while in other parts of the world fast steps, sudden cuts and transitions are more appreciated.
While I think that it should be better defined how to rate these skills in detail there is a level that is just so high, I don't see a necessity to get into fan wars over who is better when the skaters in question were able to reach this level. I call it god-tier. For me that's 9.50 upwards, depending on the day.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Keep in mind we can't inherently just look at ice dancers to talk about what is good. Things are often judged completely differently. Ice dance choreography is completely different. I'm a senior level solo dancer with generally clean turns (obviously not olympic level or anything) and if I do a step sequence choreographed for singles, oftentimes I lose the ability to do clean turns because ice dance choreography is designed to make clean turns the priority and singles choreography is not. I skate with lots of top singles skaters whose turns are literally amazing in an isolated exercise (for example perfect rockers when just doing a rocker on its own) but then it goes into a step sequence and the nature of the choreography makes it shaky.

I'm aware that we aren't just talking about turns, it's just the easiest example.

Single skaters wearing different skates, particularly the blades, must also affect what they can do easily, or what they can do at all? As separate moves, and as clusters?

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Skaters have been doing this for decades. It does not bring extra points in competition and looks a little silly because anyone who has skated for a considerable amount of time know's it's an exercise, not a finished product.

I'm sorry, I still don't know who.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

YES.

Thanks, it's a good example. I was wondering why some skaters who do/did both disciplines (e.g. Bruce Waddell, Corey Circelli) don't always ace their singles step sequences but this helps to explain it. Besides the mental and physical drain of fitting in lots of jumps of course!

Do the level requirements for singles (e.g. upper body movement, fitting in all required turn clusters) play a role in making it harder to maintain turn quality?

I'm surprised that you consider upper body movements in steps sequences! Which are, indeed, per the rules a requirement on 1/3 of the step sequence, for all levels of step sequence, but I don't know what the sanction should be when a skater doesn't comply with this rules.
I'm glad you are speaking of Corey Circelli, here's a brief video with glimpses of him in a stroking exercise at TCC when Yuzuru Hanyu came there for a real goodbye, which he wasn't able to do in 2020. I find stroking exercises very telling about skating skills:

And speaking of stroking exercises, these were at 4CC 2020 and the grace of these swans moves me to tears:

(Context : Junhwan Cha was very young and ending a fast growth spurt, and Jason Brown had just arrived at TCC.)
I'm not alone by the way, to love these exercises, so in his show Prologue Yuzuru Hanyu had a program based on them, A Fleeting Dream.

About turn quality there once were figures, but they were not recorded (I have never seen any), and many people complained that it was diverting practice time from the skater to seek perfection in a matter that didn't need such, because of the weight of the exercise in the total score. Yet, whenever it's possible to determine the line cut by a skater in the ice, sometimes there are beautiful surprises.

 

[Friday]

If Krystian Zimerman played tempo rubato, it's because he knew that Yuzuru Hanyu's skating skills, unlike any other's, could adapt to it.

I won't answer to the other parts of this discussion, because for me it's just silly to compare Patrick and Yuzuru - that's like comparing apples and oranges (AND, frankly I don't have the knowledge) - but because as someone who plays the piano herself and knows a few professional pianists.
Krystian Zimerman very likely didn't play Ballade the way he does because he thought Yuzuru Hanyu could pull it of, but because he was instructed to do so. Do you really think pianists play commissioned adaptions the way they feel to?
He likely got a reference of the parts and the required tempo.

Also, rubato isn't really a specific tempo and neither a permanent change, but more a term for the progression of a piece to express rythmic freedom by a slight change to the tempo (eg. shortening a few notes and then lengthening them more than normaly for a few bars).

 

[Magill]

??? this is Patrick's Chopin is a masterpiece of choreography and interpretation. Chopin's music can be played differently by different pianists... some only see the shallow virtuosity of it.. because of the flourishes... others do it justice and make the piano sing at all times. P

Hey, 4everchan, are you really trying to argue for Patrick's alleged superiority by discrediting this guy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krystian_Zimerman
just because he played for Yuzuru? He's one of the most accomplished and respected Chopin interpreters in the world, one of the best in his generation, widely believed to have a "feel" and "touch" for the true spirit of Chopin. His countryman, by the way
This thread has gone wild and crazy long time ago but, I mean, really?