Domestic scoring in Russia

[4everchan]

@lariko I have watched Ted a lot too. I personally took his praise of the junior Russian skaters with a grain of salt. Ted has positive words for everyone, so when the Russian juniors, usually the better prepared skaters on the circuit would skate, he would be all praise. However, that doesn't mean that these skaters were well-rounded skaters. Most of them had the jumps and spins mastered, would get the points where they need to get the points. Once in a while, a full-package skater would come to the circuit of course. However, it wasn't always the case but while listening to Ted, one would assume that they are all flawless and stellar. It's just his way of commentating. I think it's appropriate too as these athletes are young. However, it's an editorial choice made and the reality is that nope, most of these skaters are far from being complete skaters.

Also, when you mention watching only since 2018, we have been through this before, but I am sorry, but some of the long time fans on this board will tell you : watch skating from earlier. This is what some of us are talking about when it comes to complete skaters and edge work, soft knees etc. When you see the beauty of that skating, and even more so live at the rink, it's another sport altogether.

This is why I am sad with the current move towards acrobatics in ice dance : dance was the last discipline where we could still see good skating. The code of points has given jumps so much weight. On top of that, a bad spinner will still score some points on their awful spins, but a bad jumper will not on a failed jump. So the gap is even wider.

I thought your description of Samarin was on point and exactly why we disagree so much on what is exciting and good skating. I find very little to be excited about Samarin's skating. Perhaps one of my least favourite Russian skaters. The reality is that a jump gets completed in less than a second... 8 jumping passes, not even 20 seconds when including combos and telegraphing... yet the program is 4 minutes long. It gets long to watch someone who doesn't have amazing skating skills for that long.

I agree with @icewhite 's long post about what pays is what is the focus... It's exactly the same in music competition. The artistic side of the musician is not the focus when it comes to competitions. A musician needs to select appropriate repertoire showcasing their virtuosity. They need to look and sound impressive. A more intimate, deep and refined performance with extreme care for each detail will probably not win against some bombastic playing.

 

[lariko]

Also, when you mention watching only since 2018, we have been through this before, but I am sorry, but some of the long time fans on this board will tell you : watch skating from earlier. This is what some of us are talking about when it comes to complete skaters and edge work, soft knees etc. When you see the beauty of that skating, and even more so live at the rink, it's another sport altogether.

I don't want another sport altogether. I want the one I like. I don't want to watch to be put to sleep or cry or whatever other peeps like doing when Kagiyama skates. I watch it to be energized when women rock the world, like Trusova (no, doesn't have to be Russian) and big, huge, wild jumps sweep the podiums, and things don't get rearranged three ways to Sunday once PCSs gets calculated.

 

[4everchan]

I don't want another sport altogether. I want the one I like. I don't want to watch to be put to sleep or cry. I watch it to be energized where women rock the world, like Trusova (no, doesn't have to be Russian) and big, huge, wild jumps sweep the podiums.

You are assuming that the sport from before was boring.
My perception is that right now, there is more boring skating than before So that's exactly the point of this thread. there is a split.

 

[lariko]

You are assuming that the sport from before was boring.
My perception is that right now, there is more boring skating than before So that's exactly the point of this thread. there is a split.

I am not assuming. I watched a few programs from before. It was a yawn-fest, save for Plushenko; I also liked that Mister X skate by Urmanov. Old women were simply unwatchable, all of them. They barely did anything save for spirals. My life is literally too short to watch Kwan. And the ice dance is the only thing getting good now, actually, with the acrobatics and the musical themes versus people skating in circles, pointing toes for a while.

Samarin may have been stiff, but damn it if he didn't leap over half the rink in that one combo and lifted like a meter in the air. Now, that's something.

If I ever decide to watch old stuff, it's going to be 2014-2018s when women finally started to jump and men got multiple quads

 

[Mathman]

So that's exactly the point of this thread. there is a split.

To me, though, while there is a split in what fans appreciate it is not specifically a Russian split.

Speaking of which, a Russian split jump is the best of all possible worlds and should be valued more highly.

Sergei Polunin: One giant leap for British ballet

Sergei Polunin makes his debut in Manon. The Ukrainian explains how he combines dance stardom with plans to open a celebrity tattoo parlour

www.independent.co.uk

Alas, it is not possible to point one's toes in a skating boot.

 

[Skating91]

I thought Russian judging was on balance superior to other competitions I watched this season. There were problems I thought especially with the judging of the men, but on balance nothing to get too upset about. It did not affect results just the score for everyone was slightly inflated. In the women at the first GP, Petrosian got a pass for a 3A that should have been given a q, but thankfully did not affect the result. Judges improved after that glaring error.

Outside of Russia, I don't want to specify which type of competition, but a Kazakh man was totally robbed it was quite bad (I don't know how he accepted this decision imo), and a Japanese man with a terrible 4F that got massive GOE was pushed very high (he is a great skater too it is not his fault the judges lost all objectivity). In the women I thought there was Georgian woman who suffered badly to some very strange judging I don't want to specify which competition this happened but her maybe 10 points below what it should have been at each competition. At one event, I won't specify, an American woman had most of her jumps not rotated throughout both programs but judges ignored it, have high GOE, high PCS, I hope this can rectified in the future. In the same event in the free skate, a Belgian woman massively underrotated on two jumps but again the judges completely ignored this.

These are just my observations. Russian judges made some errors, there were errors made in competitions outside of Russia.

The main thing is that judging improves because we want to see people earn their places on the podium or in finals. If judging improves it only improves the sport.

 

[Mathman]

If I ever decide to watch old stuff, it's going to be 2014-2018s when women finally started to jump.

Cecilia Colledge finally started to jump in 1936, landing the first ladies double Salchow (1936 Europeans). She also finally started doing the layback spin and the camel spin. Let's hear it for the pioneers, those wonderful vintage ladies and gentlemen!

Cecilia Colledge - A Figure Skating Pioneer

I made this montage in memory of a lady whose impact on Figure Skating goes way beyond her one World title. Cecilia Colledge was the World Champion in 1937, ...

www.youtube.com

(OK, those are single Axels, but you get the idea. )

 

[4everchan]

Cecilia Colledge finally started to jump in 1936, landing the first ladies double Salchow (1936 Europeans). She also finally started doing the layback spin and the camel spin. Let's hear it for the pioneers, those wonderful vintage ladies and gentlemen!

Cecilia Colledge - A Figure Skating Pioneer

I made this montage in memory of a lady whose impact on Figure Skating goes way beyond her one World title. Cecilia Colledge was the World Champion in 1937, ...

www.youtube.com

(OK, those are single Axels, but you get the idea. )

let alone midori ito in the late 80s still being unmatched in the size of the triple axel she could perform.... or Surya chasing the quad in the early 90s... or Mao Asada and Yuna Kim and their epic rivalry (Mao's weapon the 3a, Yuna's gorgeous 3lz-3t)

ETA : Just don't like the idea that skating from the past is "less exciting" I remember well when Manley did her LP at Calgary '88 Olympics and landed her big exotic triple Back then, very few women could perform either the flip or the lutz, so to see her land a triple lutz at the Olympic was SUCH AN EXCITING THRILL !!!! It's kind of short-sighted in my humble opinion to look at what is done today and declare boring what was before. There were exciting developments in technical areas of the sport at pretty much every quad cycle. I remember being excited for Kurt's first quad toe loop... and then Elvis's first quad combo. Plushenko (not my favourite at all) I think was landing 4t-3t-3loop. Then there were very strong women pushing with their 3a or the 3-3. Fans had to wait a little while before something new would happen. It was even more exciting. Nowadays, so many more younger athletes are attempting the quads than ever... It's become actually more and more standard with the men and even with the younger skaters in Russia. Why is that more exciting when it's even more expected/common, I don't understand.

PS I used the word exciting many times to add up to the excitement

 

[NanaPat]

One person's "cool" is another person's "boring," and vice versa.

Some of that is cultural, some of it is just personal preference.

It may also depend on when you started watching figure skating. You can include that under the cultural. If you started watching in the time of big jumpers, you'll think that is what should be valued. If you watched Brian Boitano beat Brian Orser in 1988 because Boitano was "perfect" and Orser had one very slightly wobbly landing, you may be disturbed when skaters win with multiple falls. Sticking with figure skating for the long haul requires the ability to adapt.

 

[Mathman]

It may also depend on when you started watching figure skating. You can include that under the cultural. If you started watching in the time of big jumpers, you'll think that is what should be valued. If you watched Brian Boitano beat Brian Orser in 1988 because Boitano was "perfect" and Orser had one very slightly wobbly landing, you may be disturbed when skaters win with multiple falls. Sticking with figure skating for the long haul requires the ability to adapt.

That is an excellent point!

When the code of points first came out there were heated discussions about how falls should be scored. Some people (Dick Button for instance) held that if you fall then you didn't do the jump and you should get 0 points. (Button was always apologetic about winning his second Olympic gold medal with a fall.)

But the add-up-the-points view prevailed with the IJS. No single mistake will keep you off the podium if you score points in other areas to make up for it.

 

[snowed]

I thought Russian judging was on balance superior to other competitions I watched this season. There were problems I thought especially with the judging of the men, but on balance nothing to get too upset about. It did not affect results just the score for everyone was slightly inflated. In the women at the first GP, Petrosian got a pass for a 3A that should have been given a q, but thankfully did not affect the result. Judges improved after that glaring error.

Outside of Russia, I don't want to specify which type of competition, but a Kazakh man was totally robbed it was quite bad (I don't know how he accepted this decision imo), and a Japanese man with a terrible 4F that got massive GOE was pushed very high (he is a great skater too it is not his fault the judges lost all objectivity). In the women I thought there was Georgian woman who suffered badly to some very strange judging I don't want to specify which competition this happened but her maybe 10 points below what it should have been at each competition. At one event, I won't specify, an American woman had most of her jumps not rotated throughout both programs but judges ignored it, have high GOE, high PCS, I hope this can rectified in the future. In the same event in the free skate, a Belgian woman massively underrotated on two jumps but again the judges completely ignored this.

These are just my observations. Russian judges made some errors, there were errors made in competitions outside of Russia.

The main thing is that judging improves because we want to see people earn their places on the podium or in finals. If judging improves it only impro

About edge and underrotations calls I hope you know that the tech panel is calling what they actually see (in their direct line of sight or for reviews, the official camera angle), not what they think they see, or suspect it is. Whatever they cannot see, it passes as correct. The skaters and coaches know this and accept this, otherwise they wouldn't compete. It is far from perfect but I wouldn't call it robbing, I would rather see it as robbing if the tech panels would "guess" the calls. And I don't see how it can be done better... maybe have more cameras, but that would increase the reviews time.
Also the official camera is different than the commercial camera so we see a different angle than the tech panel, so we see different mistakes. I wish tech panel and we, would see the same video...

 

[el henry]

I am not assuming. I watched a few programs from before. It was a yawn-fest, save for Plushenko; I also liked that Mister X skate by Urmanov. Old women were simply unwatchable, all of them. They barely did anything save for spirals. My life is literally too short to watch Kwan. And the ice dance is the only thing getting good now, actually, with the acrobatics and the musical themes versus people skating in circles, pointing toes for a while.

Samarin may have been stiff, but damn it if he didn't leap over half the rink in that one combo and lifted like a meter in the air. Now, that's something.

If I ever decide to watch old stuff, it's going to be 2014-2018s when women finally started to jump and men got multiple quads

And I am not assuming either, having watched most if not all of the big jumping men.

Watching nothing but jumpa dee jump dee jump makes my eyes glaze over and puts me to sleep. I would never ever put it this way, but I think if I were using your language. I would say life is too short to watch Alexander Samarin, who seems like a really nice guy personally, but every time I have watched him skating?


So you are not assuming about what you personally find boring and I am not assuming about what I find personally boring.

Neither of us knows what anyone else finds boring, a yawner, or any other descriptive word unless they tell us. Alexander Samarin has big jumps: fact. As a result of his jumps, Alexander Samarin is a) boring or b) exciting. Opinion.

ETA: Personally, believe it or not, I prefer a world with both. That way everyone can watch what they find exciting.

Scoring is another issue

 

[Mathman]

So you are not assuming about what you personally find boring and I am not assuming about what I find personally boring.

Logic -- what a mind-blowing invention it is. , (That's my opinion, anyway.)

 

[Magill]

ETA: Personally, believe it or not, I prefer a world with both. That way everyone can watch what they find exciting.

Scoring is another issue

But scoring is crucial as it shapes what we can see on the ice (or not). If big jumps were not given so many points, you wouldn't see so many jump drills. When you could backload as many jumps as you would, we came to the point when all the jumps were backloaded to maximize the points gained under this rule. When the number of backloaded jumps was limited in response, no new Zagitova ever emerged. Well, even Zagitova herself never repeated her trick. Why would anyone backload more jumps if they do not give you any more points? Surely, not for the beauty of it as it turned out....
Same with quads. If you put a ceiling on their number awarded with points, no one will do more. If you award other elements enough to match or overcome quads, then these other elements will be given more attention in training and will be seen more often and better valued.
So, yes, scoring is the way to actually push the sport in one direction or another. And it is being done all the time. Whether intentional or not, and why this direction and not some other, is a different question. Which also needs to be asked,

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Well some of us were watching the skating where spirals are wow, some of us are watching the skaters where some other things are wow. Like quads for that matter, and people in the arena are giving the biggest wow for the quads. That's the element who is getting the biggest cheer in majority of the skating programmes. It is what it is, some 'old folks' like it or not...
E: And to jump a quad on the ice (or fully rotated triple-triple), your basic skills must be on a good level, you need to have a speed, you need to have a balance, you need to have an ice coverage, and control of your blades. So if people don't see how TES score and PCS (or Skating skills in this story) are connected (and they are connected in many other ways, but that is not the topic right now), read the ISU recommendations for the judging...

 

[Baron Vladimir]

In theory, people should be asking question how can you have good PCS score without a high base value, instead to 'be shocked' how you can have good PCS with your ability to perform quads, triple-triples and all the other level 4 elements!

 

[lariko]

Scoring is another issue

Scoring is the issue, as well as the propensity of some people to attempt to call others out, shame them for their sense of taste and gaslight them by starting these type of threads.

 

[Mathman]

But scoring is crucial as it shapes what we can see on the ice (or not). If big jumps were not given so many points, you wouldn't see so many jump drills. When you could backload as many jumps as you would, we came to the point when all the jumps were backloaded to maximize the points gained under this rule....

THIS. The IJS juggles its rules every couple of years. One year skaters were given extra points for a Biellmann position. Sure enough, the next year everyonne was doing (mostly bad) Bieelmanns. Spins were awarded high levels if they incorporated change of feet, change of direction, change of edges, changes of position. The reasult wa a lot of bizarrely contorted spins as skaters tried to hit as many bullet points as possible. The bullet point for step sequences that referenced "engagement of the upper body" produced routines where the skater sped down the ice jerking up and down like they were bobbing for apples.

Rules regarding Lutz edges and underrotations seemed for a while to be blowing nack and forth in whimsical winds -- every time the ISU came out with a "solution," the next year they said, "No, no, that's not what we meant at all!"

I'm not complaining. The ISU has its work cut out for them trying to come up with language that adequately specifies what an outstanding skating perfprmance ought to consist of. Points are funny. People will do anything for points. Tell a person you will give him 25 points if he will stand on his head in the corner for ahlf an hour, He will respond, "Nuts to you, fool."

So then you say, "OK, I'll give you 50 points."
It almost makes me think that there was merit i n ordinal judging.

 

[Mathman]

... And to jump a quad on the ice (or fully rotated triple-triple), your basic skills must be on a good level, you need to have a speed, you need to have a balance, you need to have an ice coverage, and control of your blades. So if people don't see how TES score and PCS (or Skating skills in this story) are connected (and they are connected in many other ways, but that is not the topic right now), read the ISU recommendations for the judging...

I totally agree. I have no pronlem with big jumpers getting PCSs that are competitive with the be-still-my-beating-heart artists. Everything these guys do on the ice is equally amazing to me.

 

[Mathman]

Still driving down the audiences, ratings, interest etc when not balanced with other elements. Numbers don't lie.

Personally I don't think that the decline in the popularity of figure skating as a spectator sport in many countries of the world has much to do with liking quads or not liking quads vis-a-vis other aspects of skating. Especially when the average viewer can't tell a quad from a triple in real time.

I think it's just cultural drift. People are not as interested in this kind of entertainment and this kind of sporting event as they once were.