How do you see the future for the quad?

karlowens2 · Jan 29, 2015

1. A lot of talk about the necessity of having a quad to compete. It makes sense. With a value of 12, 14, etc. it’s a big element. But, with a hand down, a step out, an under.rotation, etc. how many points are skaters actually getting? How does this compare with the points for 3A and 3+3 combinations.
I looked at three competitions. The table compares the actual score for quad elements and high scoring 3 elements. The last column shows how much more score a skater earned for including a quad element over a 3 element.

Competition	Actual Score Quad	Actual Score 3A, 3+3	Difference 4-3
GP Final	11.33	10.59	0.73
NHK	11.28	9.30	1.98
Canada	10.98	10.14	0.84

Not sure why NHK turned out so different.

I expected the difference to be bigger. Did anyone else? If you do 1 quad in the short and two in the long you get 2.1 to 6 more points overall. Would you risk it or look for the extra points somewhere else (GOE, PCS)?

2. The quad has been around for 20 years. Yet, only a few skaters have landed them consistently – Pluschenko, Gabel, etc. Is the message that the quad is a specialty item like the headless scratch spin? You can either do the spin or you can’t. We don’t think less of a skater because she doesn’t have it. But, we do with skaters that don’t have a quad. Why is that?

3. Skating has become a lot about the tricks with each skater trying to find something others can’t do. Is this changing the sport – for example selecting skaters largely on jumping ability? It reminds me of the compulsory figures days. There were skaters like Trixie Schuba who won lots of competitions based on compulsories. But, she could barely do a basic repertoire of jumps, spins, etc. Without naming names we already have some competitors with lots of jumping ability but who really don’t skate very well.
Anyway, these are the things I’ve been thinking about the quad. Your thoughts?

HanDomi · Jan 29, 2015

What's the point of this thread, because I can't work it out

?

jkun · Jan 29, 2015

If I understand correctly.. I think you're making a meaningless comparison. In the short program for example, men who don't do a quad tend to do a 3A, 3-3, and another triple jump. Men who do a quad are still doing the 3A and 3-3, but are replacing the solo triple jump for a quad. Therefore it doesn't really make sense to judge the competitive value of having a quad by comparing a quad to a 3A or a 3-3.

A more valuable comparison would be comparing a solo triple with a solo quad: say a 3Lz to a 4T. A BV difference greater than 4 points not including the fact that a well-executed quad can result in much higher GOE than a 3Lz.

Scovies · Jan 29, 2015

The thing is, though, it's not that the quad is worth that much more than, say, a 3A. It's that the quad is replacing a lesser-valued triple.

Take the SP. If you have a 4T and you want the most difficult jump layout possible (ignoring second-half bonus), you'll do:

- 4T, 3A, and 3Lz-3T (technically you could do a 3Lz-3Lo, but as far as I know nobody attempts this)
- Or 4T-3T, 3A, and 3Lz

Both of those would give you 28.9 in BV. Compare that to what most skaters without a quad do:

- 3A, 3Lz-3T, and 3F (23.9 points BV)

The quad is essentially replacing the 3F, which is worth 5.3. A 4T is worth 10.3.

Take Jason Brown's LP. He maximizes the number of triples he can do in his first 6 jumping passes. His final two passes are solo 2As, because if he tries any other triple, he'll Zayak. If he adds a quad, he'll presumably replace one of those 2As (3.3 points) with a 4T (10.3 points).

I wouldn't compare quads against 3As or 3A combinations, because quad jumpers also do 3As. Compare the points a quad gets to the 2A, 3S, or 3Lo it's replacing.

Edit: beat me to it, jkun!

gkelly · Jan 29, 2015

See jkun's response about your tabular comparison.

karlowens2 said:
2. The quad has been around for 20 years. Yet, only a few skaters have landed them consistently – Pluschenko, Gabel, etc. Is the message that the quad is a specialty item like the headless scratch spin? You can either do the spin or you can’t. We don’t think less of a skater because she doesn’t have it. But, we do with skaters that don’t have a quad. Why is that?

Probably because it's easily quantifiable, even for viewers who know little about skating technique. It's easier (for commentators, and fans, and casual viewers) to talk about who does which jumps than about qualitative aspects like edge quality.

And for men's skating especially, many viewers are more comfortable with defining success in terms of specific feats accomplished than in terms of qualitative aspects such as "artistry."

3. Skating has become a lot about the tricks with each skater trying to find something others can’t do. Is this changing the sport – for example selecting skaters largely on jumping ability?

I think that had already been happening with triple jumps -- probably more for ladies with triples in general, but then with triple axels for men before quads became more common.

The very best skaters can do the difficult jumps and good-quality complex skating with good performance qualities and at least decent spins. If they're not naturals at all those aspects, they can work to improve their weaknesses to get close to their competitors.

But jumping ability and basic ease across the ice (balance, agility, etc.) are probably the most dependent on athletic talent.

How much should the sport reward innate athleticism? How much learned technique? How much innate or learned artistic qualities?

How much should it reward objective quantity and how much subjective quality?

These are questions skating has always had to ask itself. In some eras it trends toward different answers than in others. And the answers may always be different for different disciplines.

It reminds me of the compulsory figures days. There were skaters like Trixie Schuba who won lots of competitions based on compulsories. But, she could barely do a basic repertoire of jumps, spins, etc.

I don't think it was that she could barely do the basic repertoire, but rather that she didn't do the freestyle elements, didn't move across the ice freely, didn't move to music with the same ease as the best freeskaters of her era -- especially Janet Lynn who was as exceptional in freeskating ability as Schuba was in figures.

gmyers · Jan 29, 2015

Hanyu, chan, Fernandez, ten, machida all added quads as part of an overall package of excellence that was already seen to be there when they didn't do quads. Actually Fernandez may be an exception to that. He was doing quads pre Vancouver and it was part of his overall rise but that's not what people took the most interest in it was really his level 4 step sequence to drunk pirate when level 4 was harder and rarer. There Is no quad centric skater successful if they don't also do high level spins and steps and and triple axel. I don't agree with number 3. It's part of a package with almost all the biggest successes.

Mathman · Jan 29, 2015

To speak to the question in the thread title, I think we are headed for an era in which all the top men do quads routinely and the very tip-top will be doing two or three different quads including loop, flip or Lutz. There will still be competitions between "quad only" skaters and "everything else" skaters, but I believe that the future will also see some super-Chan's and super-Hanyus who will be doing 4T+4T, 4F out of steps, and 3A in the short program, etc., etc. (Too bad they have to waste a jumping pass on a mere triple Axel.

)

HanDomi · Jan 29, 2015

Mathman said:
To speak to the question in the thread title, I think we are headed for an era in which all the top men do quads routinely and the very tip-top will be doing two or three different quads including loop, flip or Lutz. There will still be competitions between "quad only" skaters and "everything else" skaters, but I believe that the future will also see some super-Chan's and super-Hanyus who will be doing 4T+4T, 4F out of steps, and 3A in the short program, etc., etc. (Too bad they have to waste a jumping pass on a mere triple Axel.

That's quite possible. There is still instant progression, younger and younger kids are starting to doing difficult things easily. We can see rarely quad lutz attempt. Well only 3 men as I remember ever attemptet quad lutz in competition. Michael Weiss, Brandon Mroz and Adam Rippon. I hope that in future Hanyu will give a try for first quad loop

arty: or maybe Javi ? Ho knows, what future holds :popcorn:

TontoK · Jan 29, 2015

Mathman said:
To speak to the question in the thread title, I think we are headed for an era in which all the top men do quads routinely and the very tip-top will be doing two or three different quads including loop, flip or Lutz. There will still be competitions between "quad only" skaters and "everything else" skaters, but I believe that the future will also see some super-Chan's and super-Hanyus who will be doing 4T+4T, 4F out of steps, and 3A in the short program, etc., etc. (Too bad they have to waste a jumping pass on a mere triple Axel. )

Looking at some past Olympic Champions gives us an idea of how quickly the technical stakes can rise.

1976: John Curry does three triples in his LP... Toe, Salchow, and Loop.

1980: Robin Cousins does all triples except axel.

1988: Boitano does all triples, including axels in combo.

What's really interesting is that while all of these skaters were up to snuff technically for their era, the jumps are not their real legacy. They all had so much more to offer.

It doesn't have to be either/or in terms of technical ability vs artistry.

karne · Jan 29, 2015

HanDomi said:
That's quite possible. There is still instant progression, younger and younger kids are starting to doing difficult things easily. We can see rarely quad lutz attempt. Well only 3 men as I remember ever attemptet quad lutz in competition. Michael Weiss, Brandon Mroz and Adam Rippon. I hope that in future Hanyu will give a try for first quad loop arty: or maybe Javi ? Ho knows, what future holds

You forgot the greatest of them all. Plushenko tried the 4Lz at CoR 2001, rotated it, and unfortunately fell. At that point they decided that keeping him healthy for the Olympics was the first priority and we never saw the 4Lz from him again.

If we want to talk 4Lo, Tom Z hinted that Max might try it in the exhibition practice but if he was sick, then I guess we didn't see it. I'd love to see him throw it in next year. If they aren't going to give him the PCS no matter what, may as well make them an offer they absolutely can't refuse on TES.

Gachinski is also reported to have landed 4F, 4Lo and 4Lz in practice, and I think he had a video up a little while ago of a quite nice 4Lo attempt that was definitely rotated.

BlackPack · Jan 29, 2015

The quad has been around far longer than 20 years. Many the elite male skaters could do them in the 80s. Kurt, Sabovcik, Fadeev, Boitano, Orser, Barna, etc etc. Many of them didn't attempt them in competition but they could do it. Kurt, Sabocik, and Orser (I believe) had a battle of quads during practice in the 80s.

jkun · Jan 30, 2015

Mathman said:
To speak to the question in the thread title, I think we are headed for an era in which all the top men do quads routinely and the very tip-top will be doing two or three different quads including loop, flip or Lutz. There will still be competitions between "quad only" skaters and "everything else" skaters, but I believe that the future will also see some super-Chan's and super-Hanyus who will be doing 4T+4T, 4F out of steps, and 3A in the short program, etc., etc. (Too bad they have to waste a jumping pass on a mere triple Axel. )

I really want to see a 4T-4T done as well as a 3T-3T. A well-done 3T-3T is always very pleasant to look at it. Unfortunately, I think it will look extremely labored (as it probably is) to do a 4T-4T. Most 4T-3Ts are pretty ugly.. at least to me.

StitchMonkey · Jan 30, 2015

Im hoping to see a 4S+1/2L+3S combo. That would be so pretty and spinney :biggrin:

drivingmissdaisy · Jan 30, 2015

StitchMonkey said:
Im hoping to see a 4S+1/2L+3S combo. That would be so pretty and spinney

And edgy!

kresslia · Jan 30, 2015

It's not going away. If anything, more and more guys will be adding MORE quads to their programs. I'm expecting to see more two quad short programs a la Reynolds soon.

StitchMonkey · Jan 30, 2015

I actually would like to see a Tano or a Rippon quad.

Maybe IJS could be changed to allow the triple jump in the long program to be preceded by steps or have a position variation. Both are more advanced, it could give some variety and options, and I bet some guys would like this option over steps, depending on what they think is easier for them personally. Even if it is harder for some guys, they may find it more efficient to work on as it could be used in the long as well. In the end, pushing guys to try it, would push them to worry about not just landing rotated quads, but landing beautiful +GOE worthy quads.

BlackPack · Jan 30, 2015

Mathman said:
To speak to the question in the thread title, I think we are headed for an era in which all the top men do quads routinely and the very tip-top will be doing two or three different quads including loop, flip or Lutz. There will still be competitions between "quad only" skaters and "everything else" skaters, but I believe that the future will also see some super-Chan's and super-Hanyus who will be doing 4T+4T, 4F out of steps, and 3A in the short program, etc., etc. (Too bad they have to waste a jumping pass on a mere triple Axel. )

That sounds like broken hips, bones, and ligaments.

QuadThrow · Jan 30, 2015

Would be nice to see at least 4T+4T+SEQ...

But the BV is only 16,48... I think it is too low for taking the risk.

Meoima · Jan 30, 2015

BlackPack said:
That sounds like broken hips, bones, and ligaments.

:hopelessness: so true

GF2445 · Jan 30, 2015

I would love to see more freedom in the free program.

They should replace 2 jumping passes and a spin pass with 'creative elements'with a fixed base value, and with GOE evaluation only.
In that element, the skater could do a jump, interesting jump sequence or combo, choreo spins or steps, unique moves in the field, hydroblading etc. it still wouldnt be 'free' but it would create that impression on the audience.

How do you see the future for the quad?

karlowens2

HanDomi

jkun

Scovies

gkelly

gmyers

Mathman

HanDomi

TontoK

Hot Tonto

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

BlackPack

jkun

StitchMonkey

drivingmissdaisy

kresslia

StitchMonkey

BlackPack

QuadThrow

Meoima

Match Penalty

GF2445

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