The abhorrent state of PCS judging

This has been a non-stop problem since CoP was created, but now more than ever we've reached a point of PCS being virtually meaningless, with extremely high marks being awarded for hackneyed skating.

How sad the sport is that a performance like Nathan Chen's at 2017 Four Continents can receive 88 PCS. A program that consists mainly of going from jump to jump, with bad distracting landings all over the place. How can this skating be considered anywhere close to some of the best ever? That's what is being said with these scores, but it is a lie. This skating comes nowhere close to some of the best performances we have seen from John Curry, Robin Cousins, Brian Boitano, Kurt Browning, Ilia Kulik, Alexei Yagudin, Matt Savoie, Stephen Lambiel, Jeff Buttle, Daisuke Takahashi, and so many others who created something truly special on the ice with their performances.

Yes, records are being broken in terms of the JUMPS right now. People are doing 5-quad programs, which is crazy and commendable in its own way, but there is so much more to an entire program. With a performance like Nathan's you can see how much straining there is throughout the performance and how perfunctory the movements are. A random arm movement here, a random leg movement there, a random transition here, a meaningless expression there. Artistic integrity is being lost and it's not even quality plastic-ness. The guy tries to throw multiple Triple Axels into the program that look like bad practice attempts of someone learning the jump. He trips on basic crossovers and throughout the program looks like he is stumbling around. This isn't something people want to see; it looks unprofessional. The overall impression is one of people desperately throwing themselves into lots of moves and not caring so much about the result. Nathan is still a relatively polished skater, the impression is not absolutely awful, but neither is it particularly good.

Ultimately, not only are the PCS to blame for encouraging this kind of skating, but the technical values as well. People still are getting to many points for flawed jump attempts. Nearly 10 points for a quad that is fumbled on the landing (many judges thinking this deserves "0 GOE" rather than negative, which is just ludicrous). 7-and-a-half points for a Triple Axel that is tilted in the air, barely rotated, comes down on the wrong edge, and falls out on the landing. The madness must stop. This is not what skating is supposed to be and it can not be rewarded.

Nathan does look at the floor a lot. Maybe his feet are really interesting?

Obviously he's not the best performer, but that will come with time. I think the judges were shocked by the number of quads and were star struck.

The PCS reality nowadays is coo-coo bananas for sure.

Unfortunately, if you have someone like a sloppy Sotnikova winning gold over a pristine Kim or Kostner at the Olympics and nothing being done about it... well I think that says a lot about what you can expect from the ISU concerning this scoring nonsense.

Welp.

I want to believe that after the Olympic season there will be some major changes of the scoring system. But that will be meaningless unless judges are educated more appropriately. Most of the times PCS look like a reflection of the skating group and TES rather than of the actual performance. And no, just because the TES is high it doesn't mean the PCS should go up, otherwise skaters get reward twice for the same thing...it seems obvious but apparently it isn't for the judges.

Yet another whining about judging from the same person. BoP should be banned from opening useless anti-threads.

This thread and the ¨outsider¨thread should be unified.

FWIW I agree with the whole OP. Could Men's Figure Skating be heading toward a schism, resembling Broadmoor where skating performances are traditionally done with a recently added "Jumpathon" focusing on skating jumps alone and may the best jumper win?
I have been a FS fan for many many years, off and on, and was brought back to the sport at Nationals 2014 when Jason Brown's Riverdance captured the hearts and minds of, not only Boston, but the entire country when it went viral on the internet and millions who could have cared less about FS up to then were galvanized and cheered his performance. It was the PERFORMANCE that grabbed everyone's attention, NOT the jumps!! This is what the sport is supposed to be about: choosing music that is relevant, working with a choreographer who is passionate, creating a program that has meaning, not tacking random moves on oft used music with little connection to movement to promote some jump contest appreciated only by an exclusive inner circle. I came to GS as a fan whose desire was to learn more about the sport because of Riverdance and I have learned a great deal in these pages but I am disappointed in the direction the sport is taking.
I will wait for World's and the coming Olympic Year to decide whether my interest will again go underground as quad jumping contests are not my cup of tea. Videos of endless quads do not go viral unless they are passed amongst those in the know and seem generally to hold little interest otherwise.

I think there are certainly skaters who are more complete than a 17 year old, but I think this whole dropping artistic standards is a crime against the sport is over the top. There have been very few moments where the technical and the artistic have melded: I think John Curry is the best example. Even then he knew that he had to land his jumps. He didn't have to hit a lutz like Jan Hoffman, but he still put out a LP with 3 triples. In interviews John himself said that he had more artistically intricate programs but he decided to make things more obvious and approachable to win the Olympics.

Jumps have and will continue to drive the sport (and I know it's annoying but the sport part is important). Several people on the OP's original list are not artists. I love Brian Boitano with all my heart and he had an amazing presence on the ice but it wasn't until his professional career that he actually started doing artistically interesting programs. Sandra polished him up for the Olympic season, but there was no depth of feeling or amazing commitment to movement and gorgeous positions (well I'll give him that out of this world spread eagle). Yagudin, one of my favorite skaters ever, had some of the ugliest posture sometimes--big artistic no no for me.

Yes, we might want the skater's skaters to be rewarded, but this is some revisionist history meant to delegitimize Nathan's win.

elbkup said:

FWIW I agree with the whole OP. Could Men's Figure Skating be heading toward a schism, resembling Broadmoor where skating performances are traditionally done with a recently added "Jumpathon" focusing on skating jumps alone and may the best jumper win?
I have been a FS fn for many many years, off and on, and was brought back to the sport at Nationals 2014 when Jason Brown's Riverdance captured the hearts and minds of, not only Boston, but the entire country when it went viral on the internet and millions who could have cared less about FS up to then were galvanized and cheered his performance. It was the PERFORMANCE that grabbed everyone's attention, NOT the jumps!! This is what the sport is supposed to be about, not some elitist jump contest appreciated only by an exclusive inner circle.
I will wait for World's and the coming Olympic Year to decide whether I remain a fan but videos of endless quads do not go viral unless they are passed amongst those in the know and hold little interest otherwise.

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My feelings exactly...I started following FS again when I noticed that the men's discipline had evolved from minimal transitions and two-revolution spins to programmes that had not only the jumps but a lot of stuff happening in between as well. The pendulum seems to be swinging back towards empty programmes with too much focus on jumps again. I don't think it's necessarily bad in itself; it's a natural development and I know a lot of people enjoy it. But for me personally that split-second extra revolution in the air just doesn't make up for lack of difficulty elsewhere and so I'm beginning to lose interest again. I don't think I can be bothered to invest much time in the sport after this season, at least until (hopefully) the pendulum swings back again.

Let me laugh a bit.

Edit: ya know the biggest reason Nathan got that score? Because he has USFA behind his back. The end.

For me, the issue is not even weird PCs scores given, but lack of consistency in scoring.
For example, where the 10 points gap between Jin and Chen comes from?

brightphoton said:

Nathan does look at the floor a lot. Maybe his feet are really interesting?

Obviously he's not the best performer, but that will come with time. I think the judges were shocked by the number of quads and were star struck.

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If so Jin's PCS should have been higher last year at 4CC, where he skated clean as Nathan today.

gravy said:

The PCS reality nowadays is coo-coo bananas for sure.

Unfortunately, if you have someone like a sloppy Sotnikova winning gold over a pristine Kim or Kostner at the Olympics and nothing being done about it... well I think that says a lot about what you can expect from the ISU concerning this scoring nonsense.

Welp.

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I do agree that Yuna and Carolina were better artistically than Adelina, but i would not call her sloppy: she's still much better than most of the actual top ladies skaters.

Meoima said:

Let me laugh a bit.

Edit: ya know the biggest reason Nathan got that score? Because he has USFA behind his back. The end.

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So the japanese federation is only behind Satoko?! . People always say that Satoko get her socores just because the japanese federation is behind of her, but aparently they are neglecting to Yuzu now :sarcasm:. Actually I think the JF are too much lazy to support to anyone.

moriel said:

For me, the issue is not even weird PCs scores given, but lack of consistency in scoring.
For example, where the 10 points gap between Jin and Chen comes from?

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When you consistently deliver under pressure, your fed will lobby for you to get higher GOE/PCS. The more powerful your fed is, the bigger increase in GOE/PCS. The key is consistency. Feds don't want to back someone who will surely bomb in competitions, and thus embarrass themselves in front of all the other feds and the fans. It's also a waste of resources to lobby for someone whose track records show he/she can't deliver under pressure. No feds have the resources to lobby for every skater. They have to be selective on who they support. Jin hasn't shown much consistency this season. Chinese fed chose to politick for their top pair Sui/Han.

chapis said:

So the japanese federation is only behind Satoko?! . People always say that Satoko get her socores just because the japanese federation is behind of her, but aparently they are neglecting to Yuzu now :sarcasm:. Actually I think the JF are too much lazy to support to anyone.

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You know if Satoko were American, she would have been GPF champion and Wc champion already. I never say JSF isn't politiking. But the power of each federation is different.

If you look into history of FS, you will understand how powerful those 3 biggest feds are (Canada, US and Russia).

Now, I didn't say anything about who should win this or that, I simply said, some skaters from some bigger and more influential federations will get bigger boost than others.

gsyzf said:

When you consistently deliver under pressure, your fed will lobby for you to get higher GOE/PCS. The more powerful your fed is, the bigger increase in GOE/PCS. The key is consistency. Feds don't want to back someone who will surely bomb in competitions, and thus embarrass themselves in front of all the other feds and the fans. It's also a waste of resources to lobby for someone whose track records show he/she can't deliver under pressure. No feds have the resources to lobby for every skater. They have to be selective on who they support. Jin hasn't shown much consistency this season. Chinese fed chose to politick for their top pair Sui/Han.

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I completely agree with this consistency point. There are also opportunities that present themselves, like the GPF for Nathan. You have a couple of these opportunities (e.g. Tara at 1997 Nationals and Worlds) and you better take them. Also, let's not pretend that it is any big secret even to Jin what he needs to do to get the higher PCS. I'm sure the judges want some cosmetic changes in addition to the consistency as well. Packaging wise I think the short program was great for getting him comfortable performing but he needs to step it up in sophistication for next year. Irina Slutskaya got that haircut and did a couple superficial things and suddenly her second mark was close to on par with Michelle. This has been the game for quite a while.

Meoima said:

You know if Satoko were American, she would have been GPF champion and Wc champion already. I never say JSF isn't politiking. But the power of each federation is different.

If you look into history of FS, you will understand how powerful those 3 biggest feds are (Canada, US and Russia).

Now, I didn't say anything about who should win this or that, I simply said, some skaters from some bigger and more influential federations will get bigger boost than others.

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Not sure about that.

JF is pushing their skaters as well: this season we've seen clearly what scores could receive Satoko without any push (Skate Canada): then try to compare that result with her total score at GPF.

192.08 vs 218.33, a difference of almost 30 points.

Also have you seen JGP Japan this season? the way they overscored the three japanese and underscored Sofia and Alisa was so evident.

gsyzf said:

When you consistently deliver under pressure, your fed will lobby for you to get higher GOE/PCS. The more powerful your fed is, the bigger increase in GOE/PCS. The key is consistency. Feds don't want to back someone who will surely bomb in competitions, and thus embarrass themselves in front of all the other feds and the fans. It's also a waste of resources to lobby for someone whose track records show he/she can't deliver under pressure. No feds have the resources to lobby for every skater. They have to be selective on who they support. Jin hasn't shown much consistency this season. Chinese fed chose to politick for their top pair Sui/Han.

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Chen already started the season with PCs kinda higher than Jin ever got. For example, in FS, Jin was getting 75-78s for his best performances - Nathan got 79 at his first GP where his performance wasn't really top.

moriel said:

Chen already started the season with PCs kinda higher than Jin ever got. For example, in FS, Jin was getting 75-78s for his best performances - Nathan got 79 at his first GP where his performance wasn't really top.

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Chen has been very consistent since he was a kid, from novice to junior. He didn't just show consistency this season. He was the top junior last season. He medaled at US senior national when he was a junior last year. USFSA has been already willing to support him since the beginning of the season. Otherwise, they wouldn't have assigned him to GPs in France and Japan, who are close allies of USA. After he medaled at GPF, USFSA pushed him even more because it's getting close to the Olympics.

ETA: Even though he didn't do well in the LP at TDF. He skated a clean SP with 2 quads one day before the LP. He has been making history for USA since the beginning of the season.

Blades of Passion said:

With a performance like Nathan's you can see how much straining there is throughout the performance and how perfunctory the movements are. A random arm movement here, a random leg movement there, a random transition here, a meaningless expression there. Artistic integrity is being lost and it's not even quality plastic-ness. The guy tries to throw multiple Triple Axels into the program that look like bad practice attempts of someone learning the jump. He trips on basic crossovers and throughout the program looks like he is stumbling around. This isn't something people want to see; it looks unprofessional. The overall impression is one of people desperately throwing themselves into lots of moves and not caring so much about the result. Nathan is still a relatively polished skater, the impression is not absolutely awful, but neither is it particularly good.

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^ for his LP performance. Putting other skaters' performance aside, could someone compare Nathan's SP and LP? His short program was, to me, clearly a superior program that better displays his skating skills, transitions, has choreography more evenly throughout the program, better interpreted, better performed. His long program simply wasn't comparable. How is it that for SP he gets 43 in Program Components Score, and for LP he gets 88 - almost the same, slightly higher?