The abhorrent state of PCS judging

[VIETgrlTerifa]

There's a joke among Broadway performers that the more famous you get the less dancing you have to do. It seems the same is true with skaters with transitions. Ask Adam Rippon and Ashley Wagner.

 

[GGFan]

There's a joke among Broadway performers that the more famous you get the less dancing you have to do. It seems the same is true with skaters with transitions. Ask Adam Rippon and Ashley Wagner.

Exactly!! And there's nothing new about that. I think over time we also forgive people for some of their weaknesses and begin to overlook them. We no longer call out Patrick for not stretching out his positions or Yuzuru for not pointing his toes because we appreciate their amazing qualities. It does not detract from his amazingness to say Patrick's lines leave a lot to be desired, but we pretend as if he's somehow the gold standard and everyone else is deficient.

 

[Meoima]

Exactly!! And there's nothing new about that. I think over time we also forgive people for some of their weaknesses and begin to overlook them. We no longer call out Patrick for not stretching out his positions or Yuzuru for not pointing his toes because we appreciate their amazing qualities. It does not detract from his amazingness to say Patrick's lines leave a lot to be desired, but we pretend as if he's somehow the gold standard and everyone else is deficient.

But frankly most men do not point their toes. Does Javi point his toe for you?

 

[GGFan]

But frankly most men do not point their toes. Does Javi point his toe for you?

I don't deem Javi to have good positions at all. There are lots of other appealing things there. When I'm talking about toe point or the like I'm talking about gold standards like John Curry and Robin Cousins. My point is that we pretend that folks like Yuzu and Patrick are super artistic when they have flaws like the other skaters and their strengths do not make them the artistic gold standard.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I think the system need to lower a little bit base value of the jumps (and maybe other required elements) and punish more some mistakes with GOE. I think it's not good that TES score could rise like 60 in short and 120 in free, while max PCS score is 50 in short and 100 in free... If TES mark is generally lower, PCS mark will be lower (and more reasonable) as well...

 

[MaiKatze]

Why are people suddenly up in arms with Nathans PCS? If Yulia Lip can go from 60 to 68 PCS from the GPF to just a month later at Europeans then what the judges are doing with Nathan's PCS is nothing compared to a little girl with flawed jumps skating in a red coat who could have been skating to anything.

Maybe those people aren't the same people? Just a thought.

 

[eppen]

I guess there is no real data on what the development of PCS has been over the entire IJS system or even pre-Sochi and post-Sochi? At some point I took a look at 10s awarded and that kind of started with Patrick Chan, but only very sporadically, then 2015-6 that exploded with Hanyu's world records, Fernández started also getting them about the same time etc.

Out of curiosity, I took a loot at Hanyu's track record from 2011-2 season onwards (that was his second in the seniors). He was the young upstart, not maybe yet particularly accomplished, but nevertheless a huge promise at the heels of Chan, Takahashi and the like. His PCS in SP varied from 36,07 to 38,31 and in FS 74,36-83,00. The next season his SP PCS rose to lower 40s. FS fairly similar to the previous year, 78,78-85,16. 2013-4 the GP series in the same figures until the final when he crosses the 90 point line - btw, the difference in his FS PCS score more than 10 points between TEB and GPF (so it IS possible to raise your PCS 10 points in 3 weeks after all?). Apart from the fall 2014 when he had the accident, has not really been scored lower than 90 (I must admit I did not check all the scores) and the top was hit of course at GP final 2015 with 49,14 in SP and 98,56 in FS.

In a way that sounds similar to say, Nathan Chen this season, but Chen's PCS is about 10 points higher to start with (maybe because of the more difficult techinical elements?).

Chan's career is so long that I did not have the time nor the patience to check from the start. But by the time he was already World Champion in 2011-2012 he received PCS in the 40s for SP and in the upper 80s and lower 90s in the FS. TEB 2013 was the world record at the time with 46,18 in SP and 96,50 in FS. Since his return 40s and 90s consistently.

The third post-Sochi male skater is of course Javier Fernández, whose PCS trajectory is slightly different from the other two - he had no junior success and sure took his time to get senior success. The 2011-2 season was his break through to the elite and he got 75-85 in FS and 38-39 in SP - very similar to Hanyu's at the time. The following season similar figures except that he got over the 40 point mark in FS. The Sochi season started bad, but in the spring he was scoring upper 80s and lower 40s consistently. 2014-15 the same. Last season was his best with mid-90s and mid-40s fairly consistently. This year similar.

The changing point seems to be around fall of 2013 as far as I can see, both 10s and high PCS. And I wonder whether it has also something to do with the technical development in men's side? The idea for TES and PCS was initially that they would be roughly 50:50 of the total score (please, correct me if I am mistaken here! Baron Vlad's comments point to this direction also!). At that time, fall 2013 both Chan and Hanyu scored over a 100 points in TES in FS - am not sure if these were the first times, but probably so? Since then with the 2+3, 2+4 and now 2+5 quad programs that equilibrium of TES and PCS has been blown apart completely, of course... But for it to still work somehow, the PCS has to be higher than before.

Not a very good explanation perhaps, but at least the extremely high PCS marks really make their appearance at the same time as the 100+ TES.

Another way to look at the development is maybe to think about changing principles. The 10 is PCS is sometimes described at least by fans as the unattainable perfection that NO ONE deserves ever. (But they did get the 6.0s, too, did they not back in the day?) But it seems that the ISU is not thinking ithat way, at least since about the fall 2013 and particularly since fall 2015, 10s have been readily available for the top guys. After all, the PCS is defined by certain criteria and if those criteria are filled, then you can have the 10. It's like exams at school - there is probably no perfect answer, but a list of criteria of what a top level answer should contain and if this is all filled then you get your A or 10 or whatever top grade gets awarded. Plus if the TES development has indeed informed the PCS process, then the top scores are needed to keep the equilibrium.

The changes ISU has suggested seem to work in the opposite direction IMHO - 5 grade GOE means that the top score for an element will be even higher than now (unless BV is lowered). The principle of 50:50 TESCS pleases at least me and keeping that going would mean that something else needs to be done. Maybe that 1 less jump element is inteded as a remedy?

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[Li'Kitsu]

I'm not quite as pessimistic as BoP, but IMO, he has a point. It's not just Nathan, he's an 'obvious' example and certainly the new kid on the block, so everyone talks about him anyway, but it's a general problem. Nothing will really happen before the next Olympics, and afterwards, they wanted to overhaul the system... but I personally think the system is fine in most parts, and it would only need rather small changes. But the judging right now just doesn't work out, for different reasons.

Some should also realize transitions are not the only thing to consider when determining a winner either, but it seems to be most talked about category only because it's probably easy for armchair fans to point to and it's probably the best ammo for them to shill for their favorite skaters.

Or maybe it's one of the clearer defined categories that at least lends itself to some objectivity compared to say PE and IN, which makes it a better 'candidate' to discuss. But sure, if that's the only argument that you have.

PCS should be a score where low ranking skaters with low jump content can actually beat medalists in some categories if they focus to maximize their program components instead. A skater like Julian Zhi Jie Yee should score higher than actual medalists in PE, including some precious top skaters whose fans are doing the most complaining about Chen's scores. But it's never been that way. IMO, I think some here never complained about PCS when their fave was benefitting from similar inflation and inaccurate PCS scoring and then when their precious started having competition who also received inflated PCS, then it became problem.

Yay, let's make it fan wars, that's always very productive. I'd actually think you'd find fans of 'that skater' who agree. But I don't want to destroy your 'ammo' here.

 

[mrrice]

Have you been here before? Rightful or not, but I've seen PCS discussions on this board before I even really knew what those letters stand for.

This is completely true. I will always say that until you go to a live event, there are skaters that people don't "Get" until you see them in person. Tonya Harding was a great performer but because she had big jumps, she was rarely given credit for that great quality. Maria Butyrskaya often left people baffled by her big PCS numbers but, if you saw her in person, you would totally get her. Plushy was the same way. Spectacular! You know who else deserved his big PCS numbers....Eman... For all of his faults, when he was on......He was the best. I would LOVE to see Med in person. To me, she is like a cross between two legends.....Irina for jumps and Maria for performance quality.

I will say this for Michelle Kwan. I was NOT rooting for, or against her in 2001 but, she was amazing . It was the second time I had seen her in person and after her performances in 1999, she had really grown up as a performer. After her skate in the free program....I finally "Got" her. Maybe it was the fact that she wasn't leading that made her perform with more freedom and maturity in the free but, that was the year I became a Kwan fan.

 

[kresslia]

The system is a bit broken right now, if you ask me. We're seeing TES nearing 120, yet PCS maxes out at 100 in the LP. Those who are superior technically have the advantage over those who are superior artistically. It needs to be balanced out.

Furthermore, I have my doubts PCS is being awarded properly. I'm no expert on skating skills, etc., but it seems to me that PCS for skaters like Nathan and Evgenia shoots up with such things as consistency and National titles rather than the actual performance quality.

 

[topaz emerald]

This has been a non-stop problem since CoP was created, but now more than ever we've reached a point of PCS being virtually meaningless, with extremely high marks being awarded for hackneyed skating.

How sad the sport is that a performance like Nathan Chen's at 2017 Four Continents can receive 88 PCS. A program that consists mainly of going from jump to jump, with bad distracting landings all over the place. How can this skating be considered anywhere close to some of the best ever? That's what is being said with these scores, but it is a lie. This skating comes nowhere close to some of the best performances we have seen from John Curry, Robin Cousins, Brian Boitano, Kurt Browning, Ilia Kulik, Alexei Yagudin, Matt Savoie, Stephen Lambiel, Jeff Buttle, Daisuke Takahashi, and so many others who created something truly special on the ice with their performances.

Yes, records are being broken in terms of the JUMPS right now. People are doing 5-quad programs, which is crazy and commendable in its own way, but there is so much more to an entire program. With a performance like Nathan's you can see how much straining there is throughout the performance and how perfunctory the movements are. A random arm movement here, a random leg movement there, a random transition here, a meaningless expression there. Artistic integrity is being lost and it's not even quality plastic-ness. The guy tries to throw multiple Triple Axels into the program that look like bad practice attempts of someone learning the jump. He trips on basic crossovers and throughout the program looks like he is stumbling around. This isn't something people want to see; it looks unprofessional. The overall impression is one of people desperately throwing themselves into lots of moves and not caring so much about the result. Nathan is still a relatively polished skater, the impression is not absolutely awful, but neither is it particularly good.

Ultimately, not only are the PCS to blame for encouraging this kind of skating, but the technical values as well. People still are getting to many points for flawed jump attempts. Nearly 10 points for a quad that is fumbled on the landing (many judges thinking this deserves "0 GOE" rather than negative, which is just ludicrous). 7-and-a-half points for a Triple Axel that is tilted in the air, barely rotated, comes down on the wrong edge, and falls out on the landing. The madness must stop. This is not what skating is supposed to be and it can not be rewarded.

I usually agree with your comments, but this time, I'd have to really disagree. Nathan is not all about technical content AT ALL.

 

[breadstal]

Well, agree that PCS giving thing is disgusting and ruins this sport. I don't agree that TES and PCS should 50/50 though and I think current system for that in good, this is sport at the end and technical elements have to be first. These awful GOE inflations are the ones who need to go.

 

[Meoima]

I don't deem Javi to have good positions at all. There are lots of other appealing things there. When I'm talking about toe point or the like I'm talking about gold standards like John Curry and Robin Cousins. My point is that we pretend that folks like Yuzu and Patrick are super artistic when they have flaws like the other skaters and their strengths do not make them the artistic gold standard.

But if you compare their Skating Skills and transitions to the rest, they do have much better quality when it comes to SS and TR. And most of their fans complain about the judging of SS and TR. I do think they have some rights to complain about that.

 

[Sydney Rose]

Yay, let's make it fan wars, that's always very productive. I'd actually think you'd find fans of 'that skater' who agree. But I don't want to destroy your 'ammo' here.

Unfortunately, this tactic is often used on this forum to derail thoughtful discussions and it really pisses me off. It's dismissive and disrespectful and posters who engage in it lose all credibility with me.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Well, agree that PCS giving thing is disgusting and ruins this sport. I don't agree that TES and PCS should 50/50 though and I think current system for that in good, this is sport at the end and technical elements have to be first. These awful GOE inflations are the ones who need to go.

But PCS mark is not designed to be the same as old artistic mark. PCS mark also rewards skaters who are skilled in skating in general. The only difference is that first mark judge element by element, and second mark judge program as a coherent piece made for the viewers. Speed, acceleration, agility, pace, flair etc and other non-required technical elements are crucial part of PCS mark... The problem is that program shouldn't be accentuate only by its jumps...

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think the criticism of Nathan's scoring is a bit excessive. He does have transitions, and good skating skills... The choreography could be improved but I saw a much greater commitment to the performance than previously this season. It was very exciting to watch and I think automatically dismissing it as lacking detail or quality simply because there are many quads is unfair. 88 PCS is exactly what that performance deserved.

Although I suppose BoP is upset that Brown isn't scoring mid-90s PCS every time he goes out there, and doesn't stand a chance with no quad let alone 5 quads, so it's unsurprising that he would come for Nathan, and devote yet another thread to the untimely demise of the sport (oh, sorry... the art) of figure skating in wake of technical advancements.

But he does have a point about GOE inflations... That stuff has got to go. Errors need negative GOE. Even if you're a popular skater.

 

[Mathman]

Or maybe it's one of the clearer defined categories that at least lends itself to some objectivity compared to say PE and IN, which makes it a better 'candidate' to discuss.

I think it is significant that the TR score is almost always the lowest of the five components. The reason, I think, is just that -- TR is the most clearly and objectively defined.

 

[andromache]

PCS has been a mess since Plushenko. I think Chen's PCS needs to better match what he put out there, and I believe we should get rid of corridors. I think there should be a case where Chen deserves like a 5.0 or 6.0 in transitions for the LP but he could get higher PCS in other categories if a judge truly believes he brought out the PE aspect. Fans should also understand that some categories ARE correlated with TES and execution of planned elements. Some should also realize transitions are not the only thing to consider when determining a winner either, but it seems to be most talked about category only because it's probably easy for armchair fans to point to and it's probably the best ammo for them to shill for their favorite skaters. That said, Chen is not close to being the only skater competing in the past ten years whose PCS should be reevaluated. Every competitor in every competition since 2004 GP series should probably be reevaluated, including all the top skaters in all disciplines currently competing now.

PCS should be a score where low ranking skaters with low jump content can actually beat medalists in some categories if they focus to maximize their program components instead. A skater like Julian Zhi Jie Yee should score higher than actual medalists in PE, including some precious top skaters whose fans are doing the most complaining about Chen's scores. But it's never been that way. IMO, I think some here never complained about PCS when their fave was benefitting from similar inflation and inaccurate PCS scoring and then when their precious started having competition who also received inflated PCS, then it became problem.

Bolded for emphasis. Plushenko received some appropriate PCS that kept him from the gold in Vancouver, the fury never ceased, the sport wasn't progressing blah blah blah, so the only thing to do is make sure it's not possible (or barely possible) to win with quality over quantity. Because that means, apparently, that the sport is moving backwards. Evan did all the Jason Brown things (though not as well as Jason Brown) and won with them, while Plushenko did all his jumps in the first half and posed his way through his programs and happened to have a few quads, and he lost. From there, because of the outcry, it's basically been ensured that higher TES MUST mean higher PCS, in order to make sure the "right person" wins.

In 2015, when the men's competition all shook out, across both programs, Javier made the fewest mistakes. Based on that, he probably deserved to win. But he would've lost to Yuzu (probably) if both had been scored more accurately in PCS. Instead, both received similar PCS, allowing Javi to (correctly) win.

Also, the men's result in 2013, with flawed Patrick winning over Denis, much of which had to do with Patrick's insanely good (and mostly deserved) PCS, placed further emphasis on the technical aspects of skating needing to be somewhat in line with the TES (we don't always see this, but generally, esp at the big competitions, the CLEANEST top guy wins, even if his skating skills aren't as good as the guy below him).

I think that, results-wise, they've got it figured out. There really haven't been many/any major controversies in the results in men's skating since 2013. The problem is how the scoring system is being inaccurately applied in order to reach the correct result.

 

[Mathman]

To me, these arguments about PCSs rarely get very far. But if we look at GOEs maybe we can narrow the question down a bit.

Almost any quad that does not have an obvious error will automatically get positive GOE, just because it is a quad. Is this fair? The skater is already rewarded "just because it is a quad" in the base value. Shouldn't a plain old average quad get a zero, just like a plain old average triple?

Well, maybe not. A plain old average quad must get superior height and distance, for instance, because otherwise the skater would not be able to get in the rotations. So maybe it is OK to give a plain old average quad Lutz a +1 while a plain old average triple Lutz only gets a 0. Also, a creative entry to a quad might be more highly prized than the exact same entry to a triple jump.

Higher, faster, stronger. That has to count for something in evaluating the overall impact of a performance in an Olympic sport. Or not?

 

[Mathman]

There have been very few moments where the technical and the artistic have melded: I think John Curry is the best example. Even then he knew that he had to land his jumps. He didn't have to hit a lutz like Jan Hoffman, but he still put out a LP with 3 triples. In interviews John himself said that he had more artistically intricate programs but he decided to make things more obvious and approachable to win the Olympics.

Thank you (and John Curry) for this insight. Curry's 1976 Olympic LP to Don Quixote is, without peer or rival, the best men's figure skating program of all time. It is the only men's program that I go back to again and again. But every time I see it, I say to myself, "There is something about this program that is just beyond my grasp." Now I think I know what it is.

This is not ballet for the NY Times dance critic. It is ballet for the great unwashed masses (among whom I number myself). Curry was certainly capable of greater nuance (as he showed many times as a show performer and producer), but none of these for art-for-art's-sake efforts made much of an impression on me. Instead, Curry dumbed it down to something I could understand, like, "Look, I throw my hands up in a set pose every time the music goes "boink." (Which, Don Quixote goes boink every couple of measures or so.) 10.0 for INT!!!!!!

Nathan Chen should skate to the 1812 Overture. Every time a cannon goes off, he does a quad. Go, Nathan, go!