The abhorrent state of PCS judging

[ioanna]

JF is pushing their skaters as well: this season we've seen clearly what scores could receive Satoko without any push (Skate Canada): then try to compare that result with her total score at GPF.

You mean that competition where the step sequence of her FS was suddenly invalid although it was given an OK from other panels? JSF's influence is weak compared to the other big federations.

 

[nolangoh]

Dont forget that some judges actually gave +3 GOE for his 4Lz+3T and 4F, and the step sequence......while it is very energetic, the edge quality and the smoothness can be better.

 

[Meoima]

Not sure about that.

JF is pushing their skaters as well: this season we've seen clearly what scores could receive Satoko without any push (Skate Canada): then try to compare that result with her total score at GPF.

192.08 vs 218.33, a difference of almost 30 points.

Also have you seen JGP Japan this season? the way they overscored the three japanese and underscored Sofia and Alisa was so evident.

How about the JGP in Russia where Yuna S was robbed of a medal?
Did you read my post? I never say JSF isn't politiking. They do. But their influence is pale compared to the big three.

 

[Tahuu]

This has been a non-stop problem since CoP was created, but now more than ever we've reached a point of PCS being virtually meaningless, with extremely high marks being awarded for hackneyed skating.

How sad the sport is that a performance like Nathan Chen's at 2017 Four Continents can receive 88 PCS. A program that consists mainly of going from jump to jump, with bad distracting landings all over the place. How can this skating be considered anywhere close to some of the best ever? That's what is being said with these scores, but it is a lie. This skating comes nowhere close to some of the best performances we have seen from John Curry, Robin Cousins, Brian Boitano, Kurt Browning, Ilia Kulik, Alexei Yagudin, Matt Savoie, Stephen Lambiel, Jeff Buttle, Daisuke Takahashi, and so many others who created something truly special on the ice with their performances.

Yes, records are being broken in terms of the JUMPS right now. People are doing 5-quad programs, which is crazy and commendable in its own way, but there is so much more to an entire program. With a performance like Nathan's you can see how much straining there is throughout the performance and how perfunctory the movements are. A random arm movement here, a random leg movement there, a random transition here, a meaningless expression there. Artistic integrity is being lost and it's not even quality plastic-ness. The guy tries to throw multiple Triple Axels into the program that look like bad practice attempts of someone learning the jump. He trips on basic crossovers and throughout the program looks like he is stumbling around. This isn't something people want to see; it looks unprofessional. The overall impression is one of people desperately throwing themselves into lots of moves and not caring so much about the result. Nathan is still a relatively polished skater, the impression is not absolutely awful, but neither is it particularly good.

Ultimately, not only are the PCS to blame for encouraging this kind of skating, but the technical values as well. People still are getting to many points for flawed jump attempts. Nearly 10 points for a quad that is fumbled on the landing (many judges thinking this deserves "0 GOE" rather than negative, which is just ludicrous). 7-and-a-half points for a Triple Axel that is tilted in the air, barely rotated, comes down on the wrong edge, and falls out on the landing. The madness must stop. This is not what skating is supposed to be and it can not be rewarded.

Losing is bitter and you can't handle it. You are jumping out to attack the skaters now, aren't you?

Why Nathan got 88 PCS? Because his performance blew up the arena and the WWW spheres. We saw the fierce competition last night. Yuzuru was determined and gusty. He added a 4T on the fly after popping the 4S and put down a skate worthy of a champion. Nathan responded cold bloodily. He skated a difficult layout that he had not fully practiced because he wanted to win (I'd rather see him stick to his national layout and skate it clean). Watching the two skated back to back was simply magnificent!

The sport is going in the exciting direction not the doom and gloom you proclaim. Not taking anything away from earlier skaters, but watching the skating of the glorious days of your liking does feel juniorish nowadays.

BoP has a history of claiming he is the judge of IJS system. To BoP and those insisting that Nathan's PCS is inflated, I am saying it again: Don't lie to yourself thinking you are better than the 9 trained judges on the panel. You better sing your "inflated PCS" lullaby in your own bed so that you could get a better sleep. No body buys your crap

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

PCS has been a mess since Plushenko. I think Chen's PCS needs to better match what he put out there, and I believe we should get rid of corridors. I think there should be a case where Chen deserves like a 5.0 or 6.0 in transitions for the LP but he could get higher PCS in other categories if a judge truly believes he brought out the PE aspect. Fans should also understand that some categories ARE correlated with TES and execution of planned elements. Some should also realize transitions are not the only thing to consider when determining a winner either, but it seems to be most talked about category only because it's probably easy for armchair fans to point to and it's probably the best ammo for them to shill for their favorite skaters. That said, Chen is not close to being the only skater competing in the past ten years whose PCS should be reevaluated. Every competitor in every competition since 2004 GP series should probably be reevaluated, including all the top skaters in all disciplines currently competing now.

PCS should be a score where low ranking skaters with low jump content can actually beat medalists in some categories if they focus to maximize their program components instead. A skater like Julian Zhi Jie Yee should score higher than actual medalists in PE, including some precious top skaters whose fans are doing the most complaining about Chen's scores. But it's never been that way. IMO, I think some here never complained about PCS when their fave was benefitting from similar inflation and inaccurate PCS scoring and then when their precious started having competition who also received inflated PCS, then it became problem.

 

[OS]

Heh, i should have checked the main board before send out my PCS complaints on the 4CC threads.

The PCS system needs a massive overhaul, the fact they have massively increased the value for quads/combos, 3A in recent years, and apparently GOEs coming soon (range 0 to -+ 5 instead of 0 -+ 3) coming year, means people compete through PCS are hugely disadvantaged. I think they should be marked out of 20 and not 10 and judges should be encouraged to use the full breadth of marks, not just stick with 7 - 10 per category out of 5.

The degree of quality per each PCS category should be more definitive marked with greater clarity (judged by separate panel ideally). It takes a huge amount of dedication, effort and skills for the skaters to show off the best Skating skills, good interpretation, well realised transitions into the choreography etc.. The focus to such attention deserve to be rewarded much higher than a difference of single toe (0.4 points) in TES.

 

[bekalc]

PCS has been a mess since Plushenko. I think Chen's PCS needs to better match what he put out there, and I believe we should get rid of corridors. I think there should be a case where Chen deserves like a 5.0 or 6.0 in transitions for the LP but he could get higher PCS in other categories if a judge truly believes he brought out the PE aspect. But Chen's PCS is not close to being the only skater competing in the past ten years whose PCS should be reevaluated. Every competitor in every competition since 2004 GP series should probably be reevaluated, including all the top skaters in all disciplines currently competing now.

PCS should be a score where low ranking skaters with low jump content can actually beat medalists in some categories if they focus to maximize their program components instead. A skater like Julian Zhi Jie Yee should score higher than actual medalists in PE, including some precious top skaters whose fans are doing the most complaining about Chen's scores. But it's never been that way. IMO, I think some here never complained about PCS when their fave was benefitting from similar inflation and inaccurate PCS scoring and then when their precious started having competition and also received inflated PCS, then it became problem.

But it's way easier to go out there and do lots of transitions if your skating easier content. Its easier to smile and ham it up if your not put in tons of energy trying to do difficult things. Look at Chen's exhibitions. He can perform.

So no I don't want to see someone who is doing incredibly easy content getting overewarded for that. I think one could make an argument for weighting PCS in base value...

I.e Jason Brown could get 10s on all of his PCS categories, but given his low base value he'd still finish no where near Chen- and it would be fair.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I read that in diving, their execution scores are tied closely to base value of difficulty of the dive because it is expected that a diver can easily execute an easier dive than a harder one. Maybe the judges know how much time and set-up and energy it takes to do 5 quads and giving Nathan leeway considering a lot of guys who aren't doing as many quads don't seem to have more transitions or non-jump content in their programs either with a few exceptions. This is where the PCS is correlated to TES argument comes in.

 

[Krislite]

Heh, i should have checked the main board before send out my PCS complaints on the 4CC threads.

The PCS system need a massive overhalf, the fact they are have massively increased the value for quads/combos, 3A in recent years, and apparently GOEs coming soon (range 0 to -+ 5 intead of 0 -+ 3) coming year, means people compete through PCS are hugely disadvantaged. I think they should be marked out of 20 and not 10 and judges should be encouraged to use the full breadth of marks, not just stick with 7 - 10 per category out of 5.

The degree of quality per each element should be more definative marked with greater clarity (separate panel ideally). It takes huge amount of dedication, effort and skills for the skaters to show off the best Skating skills, good interpretation, well realised transitions into the choreography etc.. The difference need to be rewarded much higher than a difference of single toe (0.4 point).

Part of the reason for the narrower spread in the top is that the mid to lower range (<7) is used for novices and juniors. 0 to 10 is all the scale judges have to score everyone. As I mentioned in another thread, with general PCS inflation and the top being maxed at 10, you'll have a compression of PCS variance among the top skaters. So small that it makes a minor difference in competition, if any.

 

[noskates]

No matter what the competition is, no matter who wins, there are always a group that complain the judging is bad. What does that tell you? That fans know more than the judges? Sorry - can't buy that. But this constant discussion of how bad the judging is ruining the sport.

 

[Jammers]

Why are people suddenly up in arms with Nathans PCS? If Yulia Lip can go from 60 to 68 PCS from the GPF to just a month later at Europeans then what the judges are doing with Nathan's PCS is nothing compared to a little girl with flawed jumps skating in a red coat who could have been skating to anything.

 

[Meoima]

BoP has a history of claiming he is the judge of IJS system. To BoP and those insisting that Nathan's PCS is inflated, I am saying it again: Don't lie to yourself thinking you are better than the 9 trained judges on the panel. You better sing your "inflated PCS" lullaby in your own bed so that you could get a better sleep. No body buys your crap

I am not BoP's ally by any means, but from years of discussing on this forum, I can state that BoP has enough merits and knowledge to comment on PCS and TES even if I do not agree with him most of the time.

I also have sat in tech panel at local competitions several times, and I tell you this, most of the time tech panel turn to judge panel with this look: @_@

There are many ISU specialists. Each of them has different ideas. There is nothing wrong with BoP having his own opinion on the judging.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Part of the reason for the narrower spread in the top is that the mid to lower range (<7) is used for novices and juniors. 0 to 10 is all the scale judges have to score everyone. As I mentioned in another thread, with general PCS inflation and the top being maxed at 10, you'll have a compression of PCS variance among the top skaters. So small that it makes a minor difference in competition, if any.

Probably the worst thing is that theoretically, one can look at PCS from any competition and compare it since it's not supposed to be a comparative system like 6.0 was where a 5.8 in one competition wouldn't mean a 5.8 at a tougher one. Maybe people want IJS to go back where a 8.75 in transitions makes sense in one competition but would be a 7.25 at another when there are more skaters doing better transitional work in their programs. Because it's not supposed to vary like that we have the problem that you identified in your post where the top skaters don't have a PCS spread that makes a real difference anymore since IJS is supposed to be used for all levels from novice to senior and we don't see even the lowest ranking seniors at 4CC/Euros/Worlds receive PCS lower than 5.0, for the most part as those scores tend to be reserved for lower level skaters like novice and juniors.

 

[OS]

Part of the reason for the narrower spread in the top is that the mid to lower range (<7) is used for novices and juniors. 0 to 10 is all the scale judges have to score everyone. As I mentioned in another thread, with general PCS inflation and the top being maxed at 10, you'll have a compression of PCS variance among the top skaters. So small that it makes a minor difference in competition, if any.

What if they increased it to out of 20, and the judges are being encouraged to be mark out of 10 to 20 for seniors, while for Juniors / Novice juniors 5 - 15? Or something along those lines.

No matter what the competition is, no matter who wins, there are always a group that complain the judging is bad. What does that tell you? That fans know more than the judges? Sorry - can't buy that. But this constant discussion of how bad the judging is ruining the sport.

I bet you put a panel of judges next to another panel, marks will vary. So it comes down to quality of judging/judges.

When these principle are not being applied consistently accordingly to the guidelines/rules, people should have the right to point these out.

 

[sallycinnamon]

No matter what the competition is, no matter who wins, there are always a group that complain the judging is bad. What does that tell you? That fans know more than the judges? Sorry - can't buy that. But this constant discussion of how bad the judging is ruining the sport.

Maybe the judging itself is ruining the sport, not the discussion about it

 

[noskates]

Well, in addition to all the judges you have the tech team. Are they all in collusion to inflate certain skaters performances? That sort of defies logic. Yes they're human but I don't think they sit around and talk about what they're going to do before the comp starts. And don't forget - they have instant replay and are nearly sitting on the ice, they're all from different countries and backgrounds. I think there are a bunch of people here who will find fault with anything that doesn't agree with what they want to happen or how their favorites do in any competition. I come in here to read and celebrate and it's always such a big downer when the bitching starts. It's a sport. It's judged by human beings. It's not always going to be perfect but to continually scream nationalism and favoritism when the panel is international just seems ludicrous to me. Is the judging system fair? I don't know. But I for one am glad to see someone pushing Hanyu and stirring things up. I don't like it when one person or team dominates a discipline. The men's competition was sloppy but it's going to be as long as quads rule. And as long as men are concentrating on quads their performance ability is going to suffer.

 

[Pamigena]

Why are people suddenly up in arms with Nathans PCS?

Have you been here before? Rightful or not, but I've seen PCS discussions on this board before I even really knew what those letters stand for.

 

[Skater Boy]

The PCS reality nowadays is coo-coo bananas for sure.

Unfortunately, if you have someone like a sloppy Sotnikova winning gold over a pristine Kim or Kostner at the Olympics and nothing being done about it... well I think that says a lot about what you can expect from the ISU concerning this scoring nonsense.

Welp.

I hear you. But at least Sotnikova had a certain Plushy command over the ice, a certain refinement. I appreciate Nathan is younger, okay I guess not really at the time of the olympics, but he is only a triple jump away from Hanyu and Chan with pcs. It is a constant them there is no way to really fairly differentiate the top pc skaters and maybe things were fine until people suddenly (relatively) moved from a two triple quad fs to 4 or 5. It might take a bad injury or something. It really seems every step forward in competitive skating risks going back two step. For everything that IJS/COP was meant to be it seems to invite the same problems of yesteryear or new problems. And in the end it does not help the image ofskating to the casual observer. I do think those of us diehards and who post here will watch skating but just think to the average olympic watcher - a scoring system that changes yearly (rules and even points), still lots of interpretation juding ie goe's, pcs, still left a lot to judges.

Maybe I am old school but I almost feel Carolina,Kim, Brown, Chan,Mao et al sort of got pushed out and maybe in this case not such a good thing. I have to say though to Kim lovers at Sochi - I kind of think there were a lot of girls who had some great pc challenge wise from Adelina, Julia (though she didn't do as well in the individual event, Mao in her free, Carolina of course and Gracie. (I keep forgetting if Brown is having problems he probably is worse off than Chan because Chan still is better at pcs and jumping which "doesn't say much" because he is so far behind Boyang, Uno, Hanyu and Chen (who I predicted could win and win worlds). He is a machine; nothing stops him. His body is perfect for jumping. I don't think his skating skils/interpretation/pc is horrible but not of the level of Brown and all.

The men and to a point pairs is where it is getting real bad. The thing is we will never agree. There are already hard core Chen fans even though we are just getting to know him (ie he doesn't have a strong persona out there to the public yet, though I think he will this year.

 

[FlattFan]

You mean that competition where the step sequence of her FS was suddenly invalid although it was given an OK from other panels? JSF's influence is weak compared to the other big federations.

This is true. The way they mark her PCS lower than even Russian #2 or Ashley or Gracie is ridiculous. If she's Russian or American, she would have won a bunch of events already. Judges love consistency and she's miss consistency.

 

[GGFan]

I hear you. But at least Sotnikova had a certain Plushy command over the ice, a certain refinement. I appreciate Nathan is younger, okay I guess not really at the time of the olympics, but he is only a triple jump away from Hanyu and Chan with pcs. It is a constant them there is no way to really fairly differentiate the top pc skaters and maybe things were fine until people suddenly (relatively) moved from a two triple quad fs to 4 or 5. It might take a bad injury or something. It really seems every step forward in competitive skating risks going back two step. For everything that IJS/COP was meant to be it seems to invite the same problems of yesteryear or new problems. And in the end it does not help the image ofskating to the casual observer. I do think those of us diehards and who post here will watch skating but just think to the average olympic watcher - a scoring system that changes yearly (rules and even points), still lots of interpretation juding ie goe's, pcs, still left a lot to judges.

Maybe I am old school but I almost feel Carolina,Kim, Brown, Chan,Mao et al sort of got pushed out and maybe in this case not such a good thing. I have to say though to Kim lovers at Sochi - I kind of think there were a lot of girls who had some great pc challenge wise from Adelina, Julia (though she didn't do as well in the individual event, Mao in her free, Carolina of course and Gracie. (I keep forgetting if Brown is having problems he probably is worse off than Chan because Chan still is better at pcs and jumping which "doesn't say much" because he is so far behind Boyang, Uno, Hanyu and Chen (who I predicted could win and win worlds). He is a machine; nothing stops him. His body is perfect for jumping. I don't think his skating skils/interpretation/pc is horrible but not of the level of Brown and all.

The men and to a point pairs is where it is getting real bad. The thing is we will never agree. There are already hard core Chen fans even though we are just getting to know him (ie he doesn't have a strong persona out there to the public yet, though I think he will this year.

I guess where my assessment differs is the part of the argument (not yours but the general argument) about everything getting worse. This is how it always was. The second mark was always a plus factor and the differences between skaters vanished as long as there was a sufficient or pleasing package. John Curry could kill himself perfecting his posture, including transitions, etc. but only was recognized with victories when he landed the jumps. For years Michelle wasn't getting proper credit for her transitions and lo and behold later in her career when she took out most of them she kept her high second mark. Plushenko and Lambiel had negligible PCS differences despite what I would deem big differences in transitions, composition, etc. This has been a longstanding tension in the sport.