The Legend Begins

Mathman · Jun 24, 2017

Violet Bliss said:
And Lambiel, who is also super expressive and artistic. As was John Curry in his artistry.

Jin and Chen have both made their marks with quads even though they haven't had other amazing accomplishments, yet...

For me, the Lambiel legend began at 2004 Worlds. (The same competition where the Shizuka Arikawa legend began.

) Stephane missed the podium and was not as polished as he later came to be, but you could tell that he was the one.

For me, Boyang Jin kind of snuck up on us. I do not recall any one single performance of his early career where everyone said, oh yeah, he's the guy. It just seemed like all of a sudden, there he was, winning world medals.

Nathan Chen was a child prodigy. I am sure that many people seeing him perform at ten years old saw a lot of promise. I can easily see both Jin and Chen pushing some of the old-timers off the podium at Pyeongchang.

Violet Bliss · Jun 24, 2017

Tavi... said:
I find it interesting that you acknowledge Hanyu and Plushenko among the all time greats in figure skating in part because of their "crazy fan support." Why is that even meaningful? And if it is, don't you have to take into account Jason's innate ability to connect with people - whether in competition or far outside the world of figure skating - in a way that most other skaters don't? He regularly brings entire audiences - not just small groups of uber-fans - to their feet. Three years after his Riverdance FS at 2014 Nats went viral on YouTube, it was recently reposted on FB, where it got more than 10 million vie s as well as thousands of shares and comments. He may not touch you, personally. His ability to connect with audiences is not something easily quantifiable like the number of medals someone has won. But I believe you're mistaken in overlooking it.

Firstly, about "legendary", the part in your post about its meaning is too long for me to want to quote. Someone can become a legend because they are long remembered for what they have done or represented, positive or negative. An event can become legendary for having such an impact as to be long remembered. As far as skating legends goes, the definition is very loose. Moi, I go by how long and how many people would remember and talk about them. Accomplishments go on the record book and will be referenced by future generations. Extraordinary events become legendary too.

Outside of a vast collective consciousness, someone may be a legend in his own mind or those of a few people. That brings me to why I respect "crazy fan support". It means a great many people love and appreciate the skaters who have also touched them emotionally even if I only appreciate them rationally. And it means the skaters will be long remembered by many.

There are skaters, like Brown, who have some great skills but not one particular amazing skill or an overall greatness above almost all others in their times in every aspect of the sport, and who have a "crazy" fan base but somewhat limited compared to the likes of, say, Plushenko and Hanyu. As well, their competitive accomplishments do not compare to the dominant skaters of their times and will not secure them a place of any significance in the record book.

So, the likes of Brown may be a legend in some people's very subjective minds but the critical mass is just not there to bestow them the legendary status without amazing official and unofficial accomplishments. However, though I can't see Brown achieving such status with his competitive career, I reserve the possibility of unforeseeable future events relating to them that have a great impact on the sport. An example of such is Yao Bin, a perpetual loser in competitions who vowed and did build an extremely strong Pairs program in populous China such that he created legendary Pairs skaters who in turn vow to carry on Yao's mission and are creating new legends. Yao is not a legendary skater but I would consider him a legend in figure skating for the effect he had on the sport and on so many people for generations.

plushyfan · Jun 24, 2017

Violet Bliss said:
There are skaters, like Brown, who have some great skills but not one particular amazing skill or an overall greatness above almost all others in their times in every aspect of the sport, and who have a "crazy" fan base but somewhat limited compared to the likes of, say, Plushenko and Hanyu. As well, their competitive accomplishments do not compare to the dominant skaters of their times and will not secure them a place of any significance in the record book.

Can you explain this?

Violet Bliss · Jun 24, 2017

plushyfan said:
Can you explain this?

Basically, they are great, but not great enough when compared to the "legends", in all aspects such as official winnings, particular or overall skills, unofficial accomplishments, memorable events, or emotional connection to fans. Legends have to be remembered for generations.

As you've listed, Plushenko has piled up amazing accomplishments that will make people remember him for a long time to come.

TontoK · Jun 24, 2017

OK, I was the OP on this thread, so I'll clarify:

In this thread, we'll let "legend" be defined by whoever wishes to post. For some, "legend" will be multiple medal-winners. For some, "legend" will be more personal, perhaps defined as someone who they find inspiring and brought them to love the sport more.

But the real intent in my thread was to talk about and share videos of these skaters before they became a really big deal. Again, "really big deal" defined by the individual sharing.

It's supposed to be a feel-good thread.

So, less drama. More videos and stories.

plushyfan · Jun 24, 2017

TontoK said:
OK, I was the OP on this thread, so I'll clarify:

In this thread, we'll let "legend" be defined by whoever wishes to post. For some, "legend" will be multiple medal-winners. For some, "legend" will be more personal, perhaps defined as someone who they find inspiring and brought them to love the sport more.

But the real intent in my thread was to talk about and share videos of these skaters before they became a really big deal. Again, "really big deal" defined by the individual sharing.

It's supposed to be a feel-good thread.

So, less drama. More videos and stories.

The legacy was born..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0BtVPavDR0 but if I think that was earlier..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOcGnFdtq-E 1998 WCH. -with Dick Button's commentary... :laugh:

Violet Bliss · Jun 24, 2017

TontoK said:
OK, I was the OP on this thread, so I'll clarify:

In this thread, we'll let "legend" be defined by whoever wishes to post. For some, "legend" will be multiple medal-winners. For some, "legend" will be more personal, perhaps defined as someone who they find inspiring and brought them to love the sport more.

But the real intent in my thread was to talk about and share videos of these skaters before they became a really big deal. Again, "really big deal" defined by the individual sharing.

It's supposed to be a feel-good thread.

So, less drama. More videos and stories.

Well, then. I was being rational and objective about the legends albeit being somewhat loose in the qualifications. But with legends being personal preferences or somewhat great, then it's no holds barred. Free love for all!

TontoK · Jun 24, 2017

Violet Bliss said:
Well, then. I was being rational and objective about the legends albeit being somewhat loose in the qualifications. But with legends being personal preferences or somewhat great, then it's no holds barred. Free love for all!

Yep. Free love for all.

Just post a video or story, and let's enjoy each other, before competitions get in full swell.

At that point, I'll go back into argumentative hate mode.

skylark · Jun 24, 2017

Violet Bliss said:
nor any history making skills or circumstances

That same autumn, Jason got a standing ovation in France from the audience at TEB during one of the practices, as well. If making that kind of emotional connection and charisma in figure skating doesn't count for being a legend in the making, then you may as well reduce the whole sport of figure skating to a bunch of numbers and records.

4everchan said:
nothing against jason either.. but to me the idea here if we don't go for medals, is that the skater would have special skills, out of this world special skills. For instance, Lucinda Ruh with her spins, or Surya with her backflip and craze quest for quads and gymnast-like qualities...

Of course YMMV

Exactly. As in, you, 4everchan, selected to emphasize special skills. More evidence that "requirements for legendary status" are variable, depending on what one values (and who are one's special icons). For instance, I don't see Bonaly or Ruh as legends of figure skating, by any measure. YMMV.

Another example I can think of is Janet Lynn, who's a legend to about a zillion figure skating fans for the pure beauty, lyricism and ethereal quality of her skating. Not for her titles or statistics.

Tara Lipinsky, I heard, didn't even know who Janet Lynn was, because she hadn't won Olympic gold. In no way does that disqualify Janet as legendary, in the hearts and minds of those she touched.

skylark · Jun 24, 2017

TontoK said:
More videos and stories.

Thank you. The point of my post that apparently started all this was to tell what I think is a great story. It was this pony-tailed kid's senior international debut, unknown to most of the audiences, and he made a huge impact at SA 2013 and TEB 2013.

Violet Bliss · Jun 24, 2017

skylark said:
Thank you. The point of my post that apparently started all this was to tell what I think is a great story. It was this pony-tailed kid's senior international debut, unknown to most of the audiences, and he made a huge impact at SA 2013 and TEB 2013.

Your story was sincere, heartfelt and great.

Tavi... · Jun 24, 2017

Violet Bliss said:
Firstly, about "legendary", the part in your post about its meaning is too long for me to want to quote. Someone can become a legend because they are long remembered for what they have done or represented, positive or negative. An event can become legendary for having such an impact as to be long remembered. As far as skating legends goes, the definition is very loose. Moi, I go by how long and how many people would remember and talk about them. Accomplishments go on the record book and will be referenced by future generations. Extraordinary events become legendary too.

Outside of a vast collective consciousness, someone may be a legend in his own mind or those of a few people. That brings me to why I respect "crazy fan support". It means a great many people love and appreciate the skaters who have also touched them emotionally even if I only appreciate them rationally. And it means the skaters will be long remembered by many.

There are skaters, like Brown, who have some great skills but not one particular amazing skill or an overall greatness above almost all others in their times in every aspect of the sport, and who have a "crazy" fan base but somewhat limited compared to the likes of, say, Plushenko and Hanyu. As well, their competitive accomplishments do not compare to the dominant skaters of their times and will not secure them a place of any significance in the record book.

So, the likes of Brown may be a legend in some people's very subjective minds but the critical mass is just not there to bestow them the legendary status without amazing official and unofficial accomplishments. However, though I can't see Brown achieving such status with his competitive career, I reserve the possibility of unforeseeable future events relating to them that have a great impact on the sport. An example of such is Yao Bin, a perpetual loser in competitions who vowed and did build an extremely strong Pairs program in populous China such that he created legendary Pairs skaters who in turn vow to carry on Yao's mission and are creating new legends. Yao is not a legendary skater but I would consider him a legend in figure skating for the effect he had on the sport and on so many people for generations.

I won't derail the thread further, but would just like to point out that you're speaking in hypotheticals, both about what people "would remember or talk about" and about what someone like Jason may or may not accomplish in the future. You don't know those things, you see, until they happen, so it's pure speculation on your part. I'd also remind you that your personal opinions as to whether a skater has a "particular amazing skill" or "an overall greatness above all others," etc., are simply that - your opinions - and they're just as subjective as anyone else's. Even supposedly "objective" markers such as Olympic medals may be somewhat tarnished when when you consider the underlying realities - a perfect example being the colossal splat fest that was the Sochi men's free skate.

Mathman · Jun 24, 2017

Stephane Lambiel, 2004 Worlds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRQVeaD2iu8

Shizuka Arikawa, 2004 Worlds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFZr331iv-A

Shizuka had been on the scene for some time, but this was her breakout performance. (Why doesn't everyone skate to Turandot? The music alone makes the audience feel like they are witnessing the greatest performance they ever saw.)

In the legend department, Shizuka may not be on the same level as Midori Ito and Mao Asada. But she did what no other Japanese lady has ever done -- won the Olympic gold medal.

Patrick Chan, 2008 Nationals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d9LSJIzuQU

Sasha Cohen, 2002 Nationals exhibition. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s8gWGpW67Q

Not a legend, perhaps, but she is remembered with great fondness by those who saw her skate.

(OT -- Have you ever noticed that you can sing Robert Frost's famous poem "Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening" to the music of Hernando's Hideaway? Just put "olé!" at the end of each verse. :yes: )

mrrice · Jun 25, 2017

This wasn't the beginning of his career but, it was the beginning of my interest in following Jeremy Abbott. This is his winning Free Program from the GPF in 2008. An event were he defeated Johnny Weir, Tomas Verner, and Patrick Chan. This was a huge win......... :cheer2:

Blocked..

This is the same free program from his first national title in 2009. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zOXG3c64fg

EDIT: What ever happened to Brandon Mroz?? Does anyone know what he's up to these days?

Ic3Rabbit · Jun 25, 2017

mrrice said:
This wasn't the beginning of his career but, it was the beginning of my interest in following Jeremy Abbott. This is his winning Free Program from the GPF in 2008. An event were he defeated Johnny Weir, Tomas Verner, and Patrick Chan. This was a huge win.........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft0kyWtYmk

mrrice knows what's up.

:agree:

mrrice · Jun 25, 2017

plushyfan said:
The legacy was born..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0BtVPavDR0 but if I think that was earlier..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOcGnFdtq-E 1998 WCH. -with Dick Button's commentary...

topic: Plushyfan.....Help! Can you translate this clip? Plushy and his friends are so cute in this clip. There are a couple of clips strung together, including Plushy surprising some Japanese fans, It seems hilarious. :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTT2fgiHD80

elbkup · Jun 25, 2017

Following up my previous post in this thread with early skates by

Jason Brown FS. 2011 Junior GPF - Flow Like Water
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IYtxwK2wJrg

A young Daisuke Takahashi FS 2006 Japan Nationals - POTO
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iVXrKhJf7-U

plushyfan · Jun 25, 2017

mrrice said:
topic: Plushyfan.....Help! Can you translate this clip? Plushy and his friends are so cute in this clip. There are a couple of clips strung together, including Plushy surprising some Japanese fans, It seems hilarious. :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTT2fgiHD80

This is from Plushy's reality show "Live c Плющенко" ( Live with Plushenko )There were two series..minimum, I think.. I don't understand everything but I can help you a little bit. Daniel who is hunagrian (as me and Marton) was working on their show (there were Hungarian stuff many times on their Kings on ice whow ) and Plushy and Marton asked him to talk in Russian language. This is what I understand because those speeches were: the first is the old Soviet anthem ( I learned it in school :biggrin:

) and the second is a habit in the Hungarian schools, the responsible student reports to the teacher . Daniel didn't remember any other text only those..( most of us learned Russian language but we didn't remember too many things in Russian. We didn't like it because of political reasons and because we learned many stupid things instead of usefull words and terms.

Daniel's second speech:

- I live in Budapest, I'm 12 . y. o. (He knew it the "12" number because he was 12 when he said this text anno :laugh:

Probably he would have been in trouble if he must to say another number. )
- Comrade teacher ( he used it that form what shows she is a woman teacher) today nobody is absent.
-the teacher: thank you. Sit down.
Daniel remembered another thing: до свидания - Good bye!

I like this video because this is so familiar for me plus their laughs make me laugh always! That is so funny the young girls on the street were really scared but they perfectly knew who is that blond guy who frightened them.

TerpsichoreFS · Jun 25, 2017

People whose legend I think has started this season: Mai Mihara and her freee skate at 4CC, and Zagitova and her nationals FS. Future will tell.

The Legend Begins

Mathman

Violet Bliss

plushyfan

Violet Bliss

TontoK

Hot Tonto

plushyfan

Violet Bliss

TontoK

Hot Tonto

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset

Violet Bliss

Tavi...

Mathman

mrrice

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

mrrice

elbkup

Power without conscience is a savage weapon

plushyfan

TerpsichoreFS

Marin Honda's skating skills

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