Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

skylark said:

Here's a quote from Ashley's interview in July.

The concussions definitely rewired my brain in the way that I process information. My short-term memory is not that incredible; talking to me is a little bit like talking to Dory from "Finding Nemo" [laughing]. It's really affected me in the way that I learn programs because you have to memorize this choreography and the choreography is very intricate. So for me, retraining my brain to be able to learn choreography and be able to remember it, that's probably my biggest challenge.​

http://www.espn.com/olympics/story/...lks-concussions-costumes-collisions-body-2017

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Trust Ashley to always tells the truth. Indeed it IS more difficult and requires more effort to learn new choreography and putting out new programs, the fact COP doesn't officially account for these difficulties/risks/rewards are the reason why people are going back to programs they are more comfortable and familiar to execute the elements. By continuing to deny this, it really sabotages/disadvantages all those who went down the difficult and riskier route by creating and learning untried untested choreography/music edit every season. In terms of choreography, I still like her Black Swan the best, but Moulin Rouge/Hiphip Chinchin will showcase her maturer all woman sass style to the rest of the field more (except may be the Canadian Ladies).

If COP is supposed to reward everything, it isn't doing good enough job, and overlooking over this obvious fact that anyone with some experiences with live performing will able to tell you.

Skills of ANYTHING are always closely linked to difficulty, versatility, variety, complexity and intricacy. TES base value only covers the difficulties of the elements, but it does not cover everything else that are critical to the success of a great program/performance.

OS said:

Trust Ashley to always tells the truth. Indeed it IS more difficult and requires more effort to learn new choreography and putting out new programs, the fact COP doesn't officially account for these difficulties/risks/rewards are the reason why people are repeating programs. Or going back to programs they are more comfortable and familiar to execute the elements. By continuing to deny this, it really sabotages/disadvantages all those who went down the difficult and riskier route by creating and learning untried untested choreography/music edit every season.

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THIS. It is not a matter of punishing those who repeat programs, it is about of rewarding those who work and creating new programs, people who challenge themselves. There are skaters who already have successful programs, and still they risk working on something new. To land quadruple jumps is more difficult than doubles, and it is reflected in the scores, to make different programs and looking for news styles is difficult too, it is more difficult than repeat a program, it should be rewarded and reflected in the scores.

chapis said:

THIS. It is not a matter of punishing those who repeat programs, it is about of rewarding those who work and creating new programs, people who challenge themselves. There are skaters who already have successful programs, and still they risk working on something new. To land quadruple jumps is more difficult than doubles, and it is reflected in the scores, to make different programs and looking for news styles is difficult too, it is more difficult than repeat a program, it should be rewarded and reflected in the scores.

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At Chopin competition, we never judge you based on how many times you have practiced Chopin music at home. If you practice Rachmaninov more and the result is you show less Chopin in a Chopin competition, you still fail. Even in a competition all about Chopin, we never care if you play the Ballade no 1 for 200000 times in practice compared to other guys who have played Military March for 10 times.

Ender said:

At Chopin competition, we never judge you based on how many times you have practiced Chopin music at home. If you practice Rachmaninov more and the result is you show less Chopin in a Chopin competition, you still fail. Even in a competition all about Chopin, we never care if you play the Ballade no 1 for 200000 times in practice compared to other guys who have played Military March for 10 times.

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If everyone plays the same Chopin pieces in a Chopin competition that is completely fine, but if it is an open competition, then surely the one who bring something new and challenging everytime, not just Chopin deserve higher chance of winning. Otherwise the best Chopstick should win every time as long as it is 'well' played! :think:

OS said:

If everyone plays the same Chopin pieces in a Chopin competition that is completely fine, but if it is an open competition, then surely the one who bring something new and challenging everytime, not just Chopin deserve higher chance of winning. Otherwise the best Chopstick should win every time as long as it is 'well' played! :think:

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Well talk that to the organizers of Chopin competition. You sure haven't heard that many quite famous pianists who were dropped out of Chopin competition with the same reason: "What they played don't sound like Chopin."

Ender said:

At Chopin competition, we never judge you based on how many times you have practiced Chopin music at home. If you practice Rachmaninov more and the result is you show less Chopin in a Chopin competition, you still fail. Even in a competition all about Chopin, we never care if you play the Ballade no 1 for 200000 times in practice compared to other guys who have played Military March for 10 times.

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well, this is not a music competition, it is figure skating. And, It is really comparable?, How long does the concert n. 2 of Rachmaninov last? 38 minutes?, there are specialists in Chopin, how long does last each piece? Do you really think it is the same as to learn a program of 4 min, 30 seconds?

Ender said:

Well talk that to the organizers of Chopin competition. You sure haven't heard that many quite famous pianists who were dropped out of Chopin competition with the same reason: "What they played don't sound like Chopin."

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That is not what I meant by open competition. I mean a competition that has no rules about which composers or pieces you play, just like figure skating that openly accept any choreography and music edit program as long as they include the required elements.

chapis said:

well, this is not a music competition, it is figure skating. And, It is really comparable?, How long does the concert n. 2 of Rachmaninov last? 38 minutes?, there are specialist in Chopin, how long does last each piece? Do you really think it is the same as to learn a program of 4 min, 30 seconds?

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You know there are always the first round in which pianists are required to play small pieces which lasts around 4-10 minutes per one.
And yes, it's normal for us to listen to a dozen of Queen of the night aria during a day of a competition that lasts from 8 am to 9 pm.
My point is, as judges, we do not care how many times you have played that piece, our job is to evaluate what you're showing right before our eyes (or ears).
If you're lucky to play a piece you have known for long, then it's still not our job to evaluate that.

OS said:

That is not what I meant by open competition. I mean a competition that has no rules about which composers or pieces you play, just like figure skating that openly accept any choreography and music edit program as long as they include the required elements.

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It doesn't matter. As I have said, judges are mostly not trained to take those information into account when they judge. Their personal feelings might have (and always) played some roles in the process. However, objectively we don't care how many times or how many years, how many seasons you have performed some certain pieces. It's the truth. I mean, I am talking from the perspective of someone who have sit through competitions.

After 10 hours of Schubert lied, you would think I care how many times I have listened to Auf dem wasser zu singen? honestly I don't.

Ender said:

You know there are always the first round in which pianists are required to play small pieces which lasts around 4-10 minutes per one.
And yes, it's normal for us to listen to a dozen of Queen of the night aria during a day of a competition that lasts from 8 am to 9 pm.
My point is, as judges, we do not care how many times you have played that piece, our job is to evaluate what you're showing right before our eyes (or ears).
If you're lucky to play a piece you have known for long, then it's still not our job to evaluate that.

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That might be fine at a county fair level, but it is not good enough of a standard at world's best level competitions.

If Yo-yo Ma only play Bach #5 in C Minor very well and stop venture out he wouldn't be the Yo-yo Ma today. Same applies to Meryl Streep, Daniel Day Lewis of this world etc...

OS said:

That might be fine at a county fair level, but it is not good enough of a standard at world class competitions.

If Yoyoma only play Bach #5 in C Minor very well, he wouldn't be the Yoyoma today.

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As judges, we don't care who you are or what you play, or will you become the most famous artist of your generation, even at the highest level, it's all the same.

We are supposed to judge what you show us on the certain day the competition happens (depends on the quality or the standards that we have set up).

What the young artists do are technically all the same, they choose the pieces that show off their ability the most, the pieces that elevate their appeal before the judges. So it's not our job to count how many times they have shown off the same pieces.

That's all there to be.

Mango said:

Dude, can you predict some other things too?

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Anyway, I love Moulin Rouge. It's a special program. It's Ashley's signature program. There are plenty of valid reasons to repeat all the programs you want as many times as you want, especially when you're dealing with technical problems and memory issues so you need every advantage you can get get. I love Ashley, and I admire her determination to be on that Olympic podium. I'd LOVE to see her there! As a fan, I am certainly not entitled to new programs from anyone. As a fan, I can still be disappointed that I won't be getting any new masterpieces from Ashley, maybe ever again. (Not that I was psyched about La La Land, but if anyone was going to make me love it, it was going to be Ashley - the narrative quality would've suited her like Moulin Rouge does.)

And I still 100% believe that we would be seeing plenty more vitriol on here aimed at Ashley if this announcement had come before Hanyu's. When one of the undisputed GOATs and most popular skater in the world makes a controversial decision that increases his likelihood of competitive success, it only makes sense that other skaters will follow. And acknowledging that isn't bashing Hanyu. It's reality. It is what it is.

Ender said:

As judges, we don't care who you are or what you play, or will you become the most famous artist of your generation, even at the highest level, it's all the same. We are supposed to judge what you show us on the certain day the competition happens (depends on the quality or the standards that we have set up). That's all there to be.

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Then that would be some poor ignorant judging. If you already judged the same performance last year and gave it 10 / 10, if you see the same performance 3 years in a row while others moved forward, I bet you judges would have have reflect that in the scoring, just like any film critics who see the same film maker making the same film 3 times in a row, it gets old, they drop a star.

I don't understand why skaters DON'T reuse programs more often. With all that is invested into programs, it seems a waste to throw them away after a year.

I'm not sure where the idea that it's "lazy" came from. Maybe from some commentator, like the tiresome trope that Kwan lost because she was "joyless" compared to Lipinski. Doesn't make it true, however.

Ender said:

You know there are always the first round in which pianists are required to play small pieces which lasts around 4-10 minutes per one.
And yes, it's normal for us to listen to a dozen of Queen of the night aria during a day of a competition that lasts from 8 am to 9 pm.
My point is, as judges, we do not care how many times you have played that piece, our job is to evaluate what you're showing right before our eyes (or ears).
If you're lucky to play a piece you have known for long, then it's still not our job to evaluate that.

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And my point is that piano and FS are different kind of competitions. At your examples, judges are scoring the execution of pieces of music or composers. In FS they creat the programs. If it was similar, in 2002 ISU would banned New programs, creating competitions to evaluate execution of Yagudin programs, Midori programs, or any established programs. What is the point to creat programs if they are only interested in the execution? . I just think that piano competitions are looking for different things than figure skating.

andromache said:

It's not supposed to be shady towards anyone - it's genuine speculation. If I were Ashley and I wanted to re-use Moulin Rouge but was nervous about how fans and judges might respond negatively to that decision, but then a current World Champion and the most popular figure skater in the world decided to do exactly what I was thinking about doing, I would feel a heck of a lot more comfortable with going forward with a controversial decision. If Ashley's announcement for reusing her programs came before Hanyu's, she would be receiving 10000x more criticism than she is right now - but because Hanyu did it first, he's made it easier for other skaters who want to, as well.

And I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing, or trying to "blame" Hanyu for Ashley's choice. Just observing what may be a ripple effect.

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Except for the fact that Ashley has re-used Moulin Rouge before by complete own bravery. She has also announced to repeat Hip Hip again before, didn't she? Some of you make it sound like Yuzu now invented repeating programs. Patrick Chan - 3 time and reigning world champion that he was back then - went into the 2014 Olympics with 2 recycled programs. And the number of other skaters (and popular and successful ones at that) who recycled programs before is long. Like, really long. I mean, I'm one of the Hanyu fans here, and I feel that that's kind of overrating his influence there.

So if Ashley announced to repeat Moulin Rouge before Yuzu announced Chopin/Seimei, she would get more criticism (I'm not even sure I'd believe that, but let's role with it) - and would give a flip about that exactly why? Especially Ashley, who seems like a pretty "I'm doing my own thing" kinda lady, and because comments on a few internet platforms are such a huge big thing? The opinions that count are the judges'. You think the judges will sit there at the Olys, watching Ashely LP and think to themselves "Man, she's repeating a program - I would have so marked that down, but since ~Yuzuru Hanyu~ said before he'd do that too, I just won't now!". Doesn't sound all that plausible to me.

OS said:

Then that would be some poor ignorant judging. If you already judged the same performance last year and gave it 10 / 10, if you see the same performance 3 years in a row while others moved forward, I bet you judges would have have reflect that in the scoring, just like any film critics who see the same film maker making the same film 3 times in a row, it gets old, they drop a star.

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How do I say this... we are the one who can and have gotten used to 9877625535 versions of moonlight sonata so I think outsiders calling us poor ignorant judging might be a bit poor ignorant too.

Of course, what I am saying is a simplification of the much much complicated classical music world. However, you get the idea, we look into details, compare the most subtle difference... and all. It's a vast world.

Btw, pretty much the judges, teachers, professors and classical musicians are still doing well, thank you very much.

chapis said:

And my point is that piano and FS are different kind of competitions. At your examples, judges are scoring the execution of pieces of music or composers. In FS they creat the programs. If it was similar, in 2002 ISU would banned New programs, to create competitions to evaluate execution of Yagudin programs, Midori programs, or any established programs. What is the point to creat programs if they are only interested in the execution? . I just think that piano competitions are looking for different things than figure skating.

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And yes you still ignore my point. I do not use music as the vehicle, I am using the judging experience of competition as the vehicle. When you judge, or when you compare various individuals in one batch, you don't judge based on the knowledge of how many times the individuals haven performed the same action/performance, you judge the quality and execution of what is shown before you. Objectively, you do not bring the knowledge about the individual or the history of the individual into account.

Now, I do no say old programs should be this, new programs should be that. Or what should be the advance of the sport/art form. I am merely saying, what you the audience expect and hope to see is not always on the same page with the judges' experience.

Patrick's LP from 2014 wasn't a repeat, it was a different music cut and whole different set of elements than his 2008 Four Seasons. Same with Hanyu's 2014 Romeo+Juliet. The problem with those 2014 programs is they were simply garbage. #Worst_Men's_Olympics_Ever

Li'Kitsu said:

Except for the fact that Ashley has re-used Moulin Rouge before by complete own bravery. She has also announced to repeat Hip Hip again before, didn't she? Some of you make it sound like Yuzu now invented repeating programs. Patrick Chan - 3 time and reigning world champion that he was back then - went into the 2014 Olympics with 2 recycled programs. And the number of other skaters (and popular and successful ones at that) who recycled programs before is long. Like, really long. I mean, I'm one of the Hanyu fans here, and I feel that that's kind of overrating his influence there.

So if Ashley announced to repeat Moulin Rouge before Yuzu announced Chopin/Seimei, she would get more criticism (I'm not even sure I'd believe that, but let's role with it) - and would give a flip about that exactly why? Especially Ashley, who seems like a pretty "I'm doing my own thing" kinda lady, and because comments on a few internet platforms are such a huge big thing? The opinions that count are the judges'. You think the judges will sit there at the Olys, watching Ashely LP and think to themselves "Man, she's repeating a program - I would have so marked that down, but since ~Yuzuru Hanyu~ said before he'd do that too, I just won't now!". Doesn't sound all that plausible to me.

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Your memory is selective. When Ashley repeated her LP before, it was the first repeat of Moulin Rouge, and it was paired with a brand new SP. Now, much like Hanyu, she is doing an SP for the second time, and her LP for the third time. Two recycled programs, both of which were used together in a previous season in that same Olympic quad, is HIGHLY unusual. Pretending it's the same as every time a skater reuses one program for another season is silly. And, yes, there's always the risk that judges might not like it. For whatever reason, this much repetition hasn't been done by top skaters since, like, Victor Petrenko. SOMETHING stopped skaters from doing it, and maybe that thing was potential blowback from judges. I personally don't know why no top skaters in recent memory haven't had this much repetition until Hanyu has decided to do it, but there it is.

(Also, Patrick Chan's 2013-2014 LP was recycled, but from MANY years back. Not within the same Olympic quad, and it had never won Patrick any major medals before.)

Again, if I was Ashley and I wanted to repeat Moulin Rouge, I would be afraid to. I'd worry about getting negative responses from judges and fans - and yes, fan opinions matter. If something is stale, it's boring, and audiences might not respond as well to it as they did in the past, and judges won't score as high (because the audience response DOES impact how judges score). I'd worry about being a punchline - like Petrenko and Sam Cesario (she did Carmen twice as an SP and twice as an LP, and yes, was kind of a punchline). I'd think that I should have a new program because no one repeats programs to THAT extent, and I'm going to have a new program because it's what I'm "supposed" to do.

When someone else makes a controversial choice, especially when that person is Hanyu, it becomes a heck of a lot easier for someone else to see that, hey, I can make that controversial choice too (because the more people who do something the less controversial that something becomes).