2013 Worlds-Mens SP

[Ziggy]

If it's "definitely way under 1/4" as you stated, then it means it cannot be detected by necked eyes without slow motion.

Normally I would agree. You can't expect the judges to have laser all-seeing eyes. But in the case of Reynolds, the underrotations are quite obvious because his jumps are so tight and barely rotated since he doesn't get a lot of height. In the combo, you could see he was opening up almost on the ice.

As you know, judges and tech panel are required to make their call, GOE and UR respectively, without using slow motion and in case of doubt, benefits of the doubt has to be in favor of the skater. That's the rules. Ziggy, did you forget about such important rule or maybe that's why the Polish Fed doesn't want you?

The judges don't have access to slo-mo but as far as I know, the technical panel does when reviewing the jumps.

I disagreed, the 4T was UR with very little doubt, clearly so with the rotation actually finished on ice. When I first saw it, I thought it was going to be <<. But because he was much further away from me on that element with an angle, I couldn't see him clearly. On replay, I felt a < was fairer but with -2 GOE once again.

The underrotation was clearly visible to the naked eye, yes. But when I saw the slo-mo, I thought it was close and just a little under 1/4. But as I said, I won't argue on this point because the angle wasn't very clear.

As far as the GOE goes, I think -3 is definitely the only way to go because there were three errors there. Underrotation, touch down with free foot/two-footed landing and then the turnout on the landing.

That is mean; real mean. He didn`t send himself to worlds. If you are using voodoo dolls you should be ashamed of yourself.

Menshov made me do it!

I absolutely do not get what all the hoopla is about Hanyu.

That 3axel entry straight off a rocker and other transitions before hand is just insane. His triple axels are huge and cover lots of ice.

He strikes a great figure on the ice, good posture and lines. A commanding presence.

He moves very smoothly over the ice and has good speed.

He knows how to use his whole body to interpret the music, he doesn't just wave his arms.

He's not quite there yet but I find him overall very exciting.

 

[Art&Sport]

What a rotten event! Still, given how everyone skated, I think the results are fair.

Chan kept it together despite a subpar season so far and being under huge pressure, I say bravo. Hanyu got 95 for his short at Skate America (?) so I don't think 98 for what Chan gave today is unreasonable. Besides the slightest bobble on the 4toe landing, everything was foot perfect...

Not interchangeable though, and doesn't make sense to suggest b/c one guy got so-and-so at an early season comp, that what another gets at Worlds is "not unreasonable." That's not what judges are supposed to be looking at truthfully, but who knows. Perhaps the judges each had a commentary going on in their heads: "Quick, what did Hanyu get for his record-breaking sp earlier this season. Yeah, ok, now we must surely give Chan 3 points better for staying on his feet and emoting so artistically."

...While Takahashi's URs were visible even to the naked eye, I would still have him (and Joubert and maybe even Brezina) ahead of Reynolds. They just move so much better. Plus all of Reynolds' jumps are flawed one way or another...

Agree, that doesn't sound unreasonable. But somebody needs to tell, or at least to show the judges.

Bummed that Fernandez popped the axel but I am sure he will come back very strongly in the free. He is within striking distance of a medal and I think he will get it...

Perhaps you mean, "hoping." It would be nice for Fernandez to get on the podium. But frankly, the way things are looking now, all bets are off.

Aaron's skating hurts my soul. He is the Joubert without SS and the Plushenko without charisma. Still, I hope he hangs onto top ten and retain two spots for US men at Sochi. I actually think a top 6 finish is very likely for him.

No need to let it get to you to that extent. You don't have to watch him, really.

Despite being utterly stiff and boring, I am glad Song is hanging onto the penultimate group (at the expense of Miner!!). I hope the Chinese Fed is realizing what a big mistake they have made keeping Yan Han home.

Well, but it's nothing to do with Song vs Miner in terms of expenses or anything else. Ross unfortunately paid his own freight albeit with some donations from the judges, for his trip to 14th place. U.S. men simply can't get no respect, ever since USFS dissed their best male skater for a few sloppy fp mistakes at 2011 Nationals.

 

[quikrush]

That was an amazing skate from Ten. He was so clearly having the time of his life and I'm happy for him. And Chan did not crumble under home pressure! Well his consistency has much improved so I'm not really suprised. I love his skating and it's heaven to watch the way his blades move across the ice, but still as far as artistry goes I can't help favoring Takahashi. Too bad his jumps are not what they were before his knee injury.

I guess the final standings will not be so different from the SP results - but ice is slippery and we shall see.

 

[marcolee925]

marcolee, Kazakhstan has two men - their first didn't qualify for the free skate. So Ten will only qualify two men should he stay in the top ten.

Great thanks. I didn't know. But honestly, two is one too many if you ask me.

 

[Ziggy]

I am going to say I am fed up with those saying Chan was overmarked. The way he skated tonite deserved higher marks than Hanyu`s best yet they were not. Why - well if Chan can match Hanyu technically his pcs should be higher. So if anything Chan was undermarked.

Again:

You don't deserve +2s and +3 for your combination if the first jump has a landing that is shaky and over the toe on the landing, requiring you to muscle through your second jump.

You don't deserve +2s and +3 for the triple axel which was ok but not exceptional because the timing was a little late on the take-off so the landing was quite tight because he didn't have a lot of room left after completing the rotation.

Give him high marks for the things he deserves to get high marks for but don't shower him (or any other skater or team) with high marks just because they overall seemed to skate well. That's not how IJS is supposed to work. You reward the execution of individual elements as well as specific abilities and features listed in the PCS criteria. This is not OBO.

 

[marcolee925]

Not interchangeable though, and doesn't make sense to suggest b/c one guy got so-and-so at an early season comp, that what another gets at Worlds is "not unreasonable." That's not what judges are supposed to be looking at truthfully, but who knows. Perhaps the judges each had a commentary going on in their heads: "Quick, what did Hanyu get for his record-breaking sp earlier this season. Yeah, ok, now we must surely give Chan 3 points better for staying on his feet and emoting so artistically."

I am not saying the judges were thinking about that when they scored Chan. I am saying 98 is not that sky high a score when you take Hanyu's score from Skate America into account.

Well, but it's not at the expense of Miner. Ross unfortunately paid his own freight albeit with some donations from the judges, for his trip to 14th place. U.S. men simply can't get no respect, ever since USFS dissed their best male skater for a few sloppy fp mistakes at 2011 Nationals.

Heading into the final few skaters, it looked like Song was going to be 13th and would miss the penultimate group. I was checking the list of skaters who were yet to skate to see who was most likely to bomb to allow Song to make 12th. Initially I thought Ten was the best bet, but oh well. It turned out to be the last skater. I didn't voodoo, I promise.

 

[marcolee925]

Again:

You don't deserve +2s and +3 for your combination if the first jump has a landing that is shaky and over the toe on the landing, requiring you to muscle through your second jump.

You don't deserve +2s and +3 for the triple axel which was ok but not exceptional because the timing was a little late on the take-off so the landing was quite tight because he didn't have a lot of room left after completing the rotation.

Give him high marks for the things he deserves to get high marks for but don't shower him (or any other skater or team) with high marks just because they overall seemed to skate well. That's not how IJS is supposed to work. You reward the execution of individual elements as well as specific abilities and features listed in the PCS criteria. This is not OBO.

I would give +2 to both the quad combo and the 3axel and would have given them +3 if the quad wasn't over the toe and if the 3axel wasn't so ever so slightly hesitant.

 

[herios]

I would bet money what got to Ross Miner was nerves. Those arms were so stiff I was worried they would snap off.

But yay! for Denis Ten. He's had his "moment." Good for him.

Guys, Ross never landed the quad in the SP to date. And he wasn't underscored, because his quad was underrotated and got downgraded, beside the fall.

 

[Mao88]

MEN'S SHORT PROGRAM - RESULT & VIDEOS (Updated)

1. Patrick CHAN (CAN) - 98.37 Short Program, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
2. Denis TEN (KAZ) - 91.56 Short Program, 2nd Copy
3. Kevin REYNOLDS (CAN) - 85.16 Short Program, 2nd Copy
4. Daisuke TAKAHASHI (JPN) - 84.67 Short Program, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
5. Brian JOUBERT (FRA) - 84.17 Short Program, 2nd Copy
6. Michal BREZINA (CZE) - 83.09 Short Program, 2nd Copy
7. Javier FERNANDEZ (ESP) - 80.76 Short Program, 2nd Copy
8. Max AARON (USA) - 78.20 Short Program
9. Yuzuru HANYU (JPN) - 75.94 Short Program, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
10. Florent AMODIO (FRA) - 75.73 Short Program, 2nd Copy
11. Takahito MURA (JPN) - 73.46 Short Program, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
12. Nan SONG (CHN) - 73.03 Short Program, 2nd Copy
13. Peter LIEBERS (GER) - 71.20 Short Program
14. Ross MINER (USA) - 70.24 Short Program
15. Misha GE (UZB) - 68.45 Short Program
16. Alexander MAJOROV (SWE) - 68.32 Short Program
17. Tomas VERNER (CZE) - 68.05 Short Program
18. Andrei ROGOZINE (CAN) - 67.35
19. Maxim KOVTUN (RUS) - 65.85 Short Program
20. Viktor ROMANENKOV (EST) - 65.33 Short Program
21. Viktor PFEIFER (AUT) - 64.10
22. Justus STRID (DEN) - 63.25 Short Program
23. Jorik HENDRICKX (BEL) - 62.04
24. Yakov GODOROZHA (UKR) - 61.88
25. Maciej CIEPLUCHA (POL) - 60.96 Short Program
26. Jin Seo KIM (KOR) - 60.75 Short Program
27. Paolo BACCHINI (ITA) - 60.31 Short Program
28. Abzal RAKIMGALIEV (KAZ) - 59.14
29. Zoltan KELEMEN (ROU) - 58.24 Short Program
30. Ronald LAM (HKG) - 57.94 Short Program
31. Alexei BYCHENKO (ISR) - 57.53 Short Program
32. Kim LUCINE (MON) - 57.35
33. Paul Bonifacio PARKINSON (ITA) - 51.54 Short Program
34. Christopher CALUZA (PHI) - 49.15

 

[artsciboy]

I absolutely do not get what all the hoopla is about Hanyu. He's not even the most interesting or talented of the Japanese skaters, much less the cream of the world crop.

I feel like I'm on another planet concerning this guy. He's clearly got the attention of the judges and fans.

Maybe it's that damn Winnie the Pooh Kleenex box. It makes me want to steal his lunch money and shove him in a locker.

LOL! Thanks for this and ITA. Hanyu is 18 freaking years old for goodness sake - way too old for him to still be packaged as a Pooh lover.

I think he has loads of potential and I believe he's got some great musicality in him - but at this point, he's still immature in his skating. His skating is just too floppy for me - he doesn't skate with much tension - I don't know if its just his body type, but I really struggle with this lines and any emotions he's trying to portray because he's so ungangly to the point that he's just flopping around like a fish most of the time.

 

[snsd]

I still don't understand how people can say chan was overscored.

Yes maybe a little bit on goe for the combo jump and triple axel but it isn't like they are horrible!

Overall the jumps are still great quality and a lot better than ever one else in the competition

 

[Art&Sport]

^^ Come on snsd, can't you sense that Chan can skate better than that. There ain't gonna be any scores left to give. Chan got cheated out on 6.0 really. Nothing like seeing a line of all 6.0s.

I am not saying the judges were thinking about that when they scored Chan. I am saying 98 is not that sky high a score when you take Hanyu's score from Skate America into account.

Yeah, okay. And all I sayin' is dem judges shouldn't be takin' over-scored Skate America skates from no one no how into any kinda account. Dis here is Worlds, ya dig?

...I didn't voodoo, I promise.

Promises, promises ...

 

[Skater Boy]

I am not saying the judges were thinking about that when they scored Chan. I am saying 98 is not that sky high a score when you take Hanyu's score from Skate America into account.



Heading into the final few skaters, it looked like Song was going to be 13th and would miss the penultimate group. I was checking the list of skaters who were yet to skate to see who was most likely to bomb to allow Song to make 12th. Initially I thought Ten was the best bet, but oh well. It turned out to be the last skater. I didn't voodoo, I promise.

I disagree; Chan`s artistry while not so overt as Takhashi is within him, innate - emoting and putting on an act is Brian Boitano. He unlike Brian Orser at the time was not a real natural artist. It was more contrived. He used the stare and spread eagle almost to say look at me I am an artist. Just me maybe.

 

[Serious Business]

All this nitpickery of Chan and his scoring is getting ridiculous. It reminds me of an old political joke, which I will update now for the Chan anti-fans (Chanti-fans? Chantagonists?): So the new pope pays a visit to Detroit (he is supposed to be awfully concerned with poverty), where Patrick now trains. The pope goes boating on Lake Saint Clair (after all, Saint Clair is the first follower of St. Francis of Assisi, the new pope's namesake), and Patrick, taking a day off, tags along. During the boat ride, a sudden gust of wind blows the pope's zucchetto (the papal yarmulke, pardon my religion mixing) into the water. Everybody gasps. The Swiss Guards ready themselves for a surely suicidal swim in the horribly polluted waters to retrieve the holy item. That's when P-Chiddy stood up and said, "I got this." He jumped off the boat, and ran right on top of the lake without falling in (it turns out that his skating skills work on liquid as well as frozen water), grabs the hat, swings around and hands it back to the pope. Reaction from Chan's anti-fans? "Well, it just goes to show, Patrick Chan can't swim."

 

[Skatebunny17]

Huh?

Both 4salchow and 3toe were cheated a little bit. Less than 1/4 but judges are supposed to deduct -1 for such cheats still.

3axel could have been ok but it was a skiddy landing on top of a stalked take-off so -1 for that as well.

4toe was cheated a bit. Maybe less than 1/4 but even if, the following deductions should apply:
-1 to -3 for touch down of free foot (depending on how heavy the two-footed landing was)
-1 for the turnout at least
-1 for the cheat at least

Adding all those up = -3

So no, I don't understand how he could have placed first, especially given his basics aren't great.

I have been on this site for awhile yet don't really post and I couldn't hold back any longer. I would like to know what qualifications you have that make you think all his elements are cheated? If the technical specialist and assistant TS can't see it on the replays in slow motion then what makes you think you can see it in live time and if out of all 9 judges none gave him a minus 1 on his opening quad (in fact he got some +2s) and only 1 judge game him a minus 1 on his Axel then they all must be wrong as well right?

Maybe you should take the tech rep course and become a certified tenchincal specilaist and go to competitions and put your knowledge to use there. Until then stop hating on people just because you don't like them. How many other skaters did 2 quads in the SP? That's right none!! He's a good skater, he got all level 4s, yes he needs to work on his skating skills but everyone can ALWAYS improve on their skating skills and speed and transitions.

He did two quads in the SP, which has now made Brian say he wants two quads in his short and three in his long by the Olympics after he skated. Kevin is making people push the envelope in jumps and Patrick has made them push it in The PC side.

I can tell most people don't enjoy your posts on here, get some qualifications and maybe then we will listen to you. Until then maybe change your tune

 

[silverlake22]

Maybe Ross will be determined to move up a boatload in the FS with the mindset that if the US doesn't get 3 spots for the Olympics, then he's likely not going? Maxie is holding his own and Lysacek or Abbott would probably get more support from USFS for the 2nd spot should Miner wind up out of the top 10 here (he still could pull up into the top 10 still, but should he not do that).

So shocked/happy for D10. Now please don't drop to 18th in the FS, please!!

Verner makes me sad. So talented. He's the headcase of all headcases, he makes Abbott look consistent. Le sigh. At least Babou is still a contender...

 

[Ilvskating]

it worthes the four and half hours drive and every single penny just to see Patrick skated like that! Breath taking! Dennis Ten did really well too, nice program and he was basically clean. great competition overall!

 

[Art&Sport]

^^ Seriously, Serious Business? Oh no, I guess you're not really being serious with that dead-in-the-water, yet kinda funny yuck-up.

Ya know, it really ain't all that big a deal. We all know who's gonna win his third World championship. Nothing's gonna change the fact either that some fans who respect Chan but are not huge fans of his feel he was over-scored a bit in the sp. Even Chan agrees, as draqq pointed out. Like I said, if the judges hadn't over-inflated most of the top scores in general, but had given all the top skaters more within reason scores, there would be less commenting on this because we all agree Chan deserves to be in first (by rep and veteran status as well as performance effort). Denis needs to prove he can do what he did in the sp more consistently. But Denis never needed to focus on improving his artistry because he has always possessed excellent artistic skills.

In any case, IMHO, Chan fans are such easy targets. Lots of posters here spoke about other skaters being over-scored, but all the Chan fans can get overly excited about is poor Patrick not being appreciated for being so "stunning." Mr. Chan, btw, can take good care of himself. He doesn't need all his over-protective fans worrying about his tech skills going south this season because he doesn't have in their words, "a real coach." Chan fans are never happy it seems. And then they get overly psyched when he manages to stay on his feet for a whole entire program.

I disagree; Chan`s artistry while not so overt as Takhashi is within him, innate - emoting and putting on an act is Brian Boitano. He unlike Brian Orser at the time was not a real natural artist. It was more contrived. He used the stare and spread eagle almost to say look at me I am an artist. Just me maybe.

Hmmm, skater boy, dare I remind you that it's 2013, not 1988. In any case, Brian O has more than enough on his plate at the moment, and better things to do than reminisce about his artistic soul being wuzrobbed in the past.

Chan channels his artistry, yes. Takahashi doesn't even have to think about being artistic. It's just as natural to Dai, Abbott, and Denis as breathing.

 

[Art&Sport]

Maybe Ross will be determined to move up a boatload in the FS with the mindset that if the US doesn't get 3 spots for the Olympics, then he's likely not going? Maxie is holding his own and Lysacek or Abbott would probably get more support from USFS for the 2nd spot should Miner wind up out of the top 10 here (he still could pull up into the top 10 still, but should he not do that).

So shocked/happy for D10. Now please don't drop to 18th in the FS, please!!

Verner makes me sad. So talented. He's the headcase of all headcases, he makes Abbott look consistent. Le sigh. At least Babou is still a contender...

By the beat of his courageous heart, Baboo is a contender for staying in top five or six, yesss.


Hah, hah, nice thought re Ross. But let's say that Ross gets fired up and with some help from Max and the judges (which is seriously in doubt re the judges and the math) 3 spots are gotten for U.S. men. That in no way means Ross secures an Olympic spot for himself. Simply don't work that way in the minefield that is U.S. Nationals. Too many talented U.S. guys in the bunkers, most of whom will never see the light of day at Worlds and Olympics.

And please no voodoo jinxing of D10!


Looking back at Ross' performance, I have to say that the judges really didn't rate him too highly by sending him that low down in the placements. I mean look at the favors they gave a lot of other guys who had some errors. Ross has excellent skating skills and wonderful speed and positions. He did a lot of things well in this performance and did not make additional mistakes. The quad is huge, but for him to be taken down by that much, they weren't rating Ross in the 6 to 9 range among this group to begin with, which I feel is more in line with his talent. Like I said, no respect for U.S. guys.

It's like none of them can get any momentum going, e.g, Ross wins Nats bronze and 4CC bronze last year but can't go to Worlds because there are only 2 spots available. Then the sure (or not so sure) tandem of Adam and Abbott still can't get 3 spots secured in Nice, which means Abbott doesn't get to go this year for some extra security. Max and Ross seeming to feel a bit of weight this year and getting no respect.

 

[kimganos]

That was an amazing skate from Ten. He was so clearly having the time of his life and I'm happy for him. And Chan did not crumble under home pressure! Well his consistency has much improved so I'm not really suprised. I love his skating and it's heaven to watch the way his blades move across the ice, but still as far as artistry goes I can't help favoring Takahashi. Too bad his jumps are not what they were before his knee injury.

I guess the final standings will not be so different from the SP results - but ice is slippery and we shall see.

ITA, And I'd like to add that Dai's footwork tonight was superb! And so was Ten's!