2014 Worlds - Ladies Free Skating

[David21]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/56he2xeijw9koi1/Screen shot 2014-04-04 at 13.48.48.png
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2013 Worlds +0.90 GOE including a +3, with a shaky landing. No UR call.

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No UR call, fall, only four -3s. -1.70 GOE overall.

I somehow doubt Mao is receiving the biggest benefit of the doubt when it comes to rotation and GOE......

Mao underrotates her jumps much more often than most other top skaters so she is also benefitting more often. Of course like I said, other skaters (like Takahashi) also get scores which are too high since the judges aren't able to give out appropriate deductions in the GOEs for underrotated jumps.

And anyone who seriously thinks that Kostner is getting more benefit from the judges than Mao when it comes to underrotated jumps must be completely delusional.

 

[zamboni step]

Mao underrotates her jumps much more often than most other top skaters so she is also benefitting more often. Of course like I said, other skaters (like Takahashi) also get scores which are too high since the judges aren't able to give out appropriate deductions in the GOEs for underrotated jumps.

And anyone who seriously thinks that Kostner is getting more benefit from the judges than Mao when it comes to underrotated jumps must be completely delusional.

Not really, considering Mao gets absolutely hammered for UR calls. Anyone who says Mao isn't severely penalised for URs is naive.

 

[sky_fly20]

There is a difference between "managing weight" and not allowing little girls to eat when they are supposed to. When you have reached a decent level ("elite" as you say), of course you have to maintain your weight, but coaches/skating schools shouldn't starve young skaters who are just working on doubles, for instance. This isn't even "elite" sports, this is literally imposed starvation since a young age when even the skaters don't know if they love the sport so much or if they will even reach that level. That is why many girls eventually quit before reaching that elite level, and if they do reach, they usually retain this underdeveloped/abnormally thin shape. Of course this is a generalization, but again, this is based on what I know for a fact about the training methods in Russia.

edit: exactly, the part before the last one that you added is exactly what I am saying. The coaches in that country are exactly about half-starving (usually) and NOT about "correct nutrition". unfortunately.

this happens in all elite sports, they are on the strict diet
this could also be a cultural thing, in Russian, gymnastics, figure skaters etc. are put on a strict diet because coaches believe
weight gain causes injuries

the slender you are the the better in not straining your knees, jumps, rotation,
Tutberidze is known to weight her skater everyday, every gram counts for her
same with others, Mishin even said Tuk went on a difficult period because of her weight gain

 

[neraiselle]

Secondly, I was really impressed with So-Youn Park's "Swan Lake", even though I had never seen her skate before. Has this girl studied ballet when she was younger? Her movements are superb and I guess she needs a bit more time to improve her "skating skills" (or get the judges give her the PCS she deserves). Her style reminds me of a mix between Sasha and Yuna. Plus she is really genuinely pretty.

She did learn ballet and traditional Korean dance from an early age. I gather her mum majored in dance and is a dance and aerobic/fitness teacher and her father a professional cycle racer, so I guess the influence comes from her mum on that front and athleticism from both parents.

 

[David21]

Not really, considering Mao gets absolutely hammered for UR calls. Anyone who says Mao isn't severely penalised for URs is naive.

She doesn't get hammered. She got positive GOEs for her underrotated jumps at Worlds, called or not

 

[Components]

What do you guys call this jump? http://gall.dcinside.com/board/view/?id=figureskating&no=2212960

It is supposed to be 3flip jump, but I would call this 2.5 floopchow. What about you guys?

And this jump. http://gall.dcinside.com/board/view/?id=figureskating&no=2192692

this is supposed to be 3axel. But I see under-rotation(she spins 2.7 rotations when she's supposed to rotate 3.5), but there were no deduction in the short. +1.86 of Goe on this jump was just too much. Judges didn't do their job in short program, but they finally did their job by 70% in the free skating. I would say this is the outcome of russiaflation. But I don't blame Mao for executing in a wrong way, because she has been making these mistakes since she was young, and those mistakes doesn't get corrected in one day. Nevertheless, I really liked her performance as a whole(except for those mistakes) and I congratulate her for winning gold in world championship. She deserved it among other skaters.

Clearly you are not a figure skater.

Almost all backward take-offs actually take off forward or at least a quarter rotation pre-rotated (Flip/Lutz).

Trying to go off backwards is a recipe for failure, especially on edge jumps.

People said the same thing about Sotnikova's Flip in Sochi, and came across as sounding equally clueless.

Brian Mroz jumps like this as well, on his Lutz:

http://icoachskating.com/comparing-triple-lutz-technique-lutz-analysis-trevor-laak/

Most men jump higher and they achieve this on the toe jumps by not pivoting around as far and popping the jump up higher. We call this a power take-off. You have to be going faster to get the trajectory needed for a great jump when vaulting off like this (otherwise you risk jamming the take-off). They do this by opening up the free side allowing them to go straight up in a balanced position and then rotating after the jump pops up. Yuna Kim does her Triple Lutzes and Flips quite similar to the technique employed by a majority of male skaters.

Ladies are different. They tend to be more slight in build, which lends itself to faster rotation, so they take as much leeway on the ice as is allowed - often - and then employ their faster rotations to get a smaller jump around enough to be credited. This is why a lot of ladies land in a relatively wrapped position (even Kim, because her jumps are still not as big as the better male jumpers).

When I do a Flip or Lutz jump, it looks like most other male skaters or Yuna's. When most of the girls at my rink do Lutzes or Flips, they resemble Asada and Sotnikova's take-offs.

It's a perfectly legal technique/take-off and most Skaters, Coaches, and Judges are aware of this. It has *always* been this way because going off backwards into a triple jump is neither efficient nor a safe way to perform the jump. Male skaters who are not very powerful also often use a technique similar to this, if they are good rotators.

Even the first Triple Loop by Dick Button you can clearly see him pivot to forward before leaving the ice. This way of jumping has been around forever, since people started doing multi-revolution jumps in figure skating.

 

[Components]

And they told me that calling all her jumps secretly loops was too creative. When she takes off her blade is sideways and when she lands it must be sideways at least and backwards ideally, i.e. 3-3.25 revolutions. You really should look at your screenshots of the 3A before posting such nonsense about 2.7 revolutions, because they clearly show that she has more than 3.

Asada's Triple Axels are almost always well under 3 revolutions.

This is easily confirmed by loading high resolution footage into Dartfish and analyzing them.

The airtime rotation of a jump is what matters. She often pre-rotates her jump way too much on the take-off, and that's why sometimes she gets called for URs when people think they are around. When a jump is severely pre-rotated, it's called <. This is also what the tech panel does with Toe Axels.

 

[Components]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought all jumps especially axel can be pre-rotated 90 degrees, which is 1/4 turn. But the fact that she got extra Goe on her jumps. I don't think that A with 3.5 rotations should get same score with B with 2.75 rotations. Even though they are both considered as same jump.

No. The Axels generally has about a quarter rotation pivot on the landing. Asada sometimes is basically backwards on the take-off, and then short on the landing, which deletes about 0.75 in-air revolutions from the jump. If the tech panel thinks it's 0.76 even if the landing is fine, they will UR it based on the take-off pre-rotation.

Secondly, a good rule of thumb for jumping is "all jumps take-off forwards".

A clean 1Lo jump can only have ~a quarter rotation in the air, because the jump pivots to forwards before take-off and you can be a quarter under and still be IJS clean. 3 Quarters from 1 Whole is 1 quarter of a rotation.

That means a double loop is clean with only 1.25 Rotations in the air and a Triple can be clean with only 2.25 Rotations in the air.

The same applies to virtually every other backward jump.

The thing that trips most people up is the Axel, because often they are so fixated on checking landings (since the jump requires more rotation) that they forget the take-offs can also be checked.

The reason why a Toe Axel is called < is because of the take-off pre-rotation. Doing an axel off the Toe Loop pivot causes the take-off to pivot PAST forwards

 

[zamboni step]

She doesn't get hammered. She got positive GOEs for her underrotated jumps at Worlds, called or not

Under-rotated? And you claimed you could identify URs,,,,,,,

 

[SkatingFun]

for Double Axel or Triple Axel, skid is the technique lots of elite skaters use during take-off. That should NOT be considered as pre-rotate.

You seems not knowing much about skating techniques?!

Asada's Triple Axels are almost always well under 3 revolutions.

This is easily confirmed by loading high resolution footage into Dartfish and analyzing them.

The airtime rotation of a jump is what matters. She often pre-rotates her jump way too much on the take-off, and that's why sometimes she gets called for URs when people think they are around. When a jump is severely pre-rotated, it's called <. This is also what the tech panel does with Toe Axels.

 

[FS_rrb]

I'm not an expert but, as far as I know and after checking some men's triple axels it looks like a 1/4 prerotation in the take off is perfectly normal. I seriously don't see that Mao prerotates more than that and I don't understand why some people insist on counting rotations in her axel from the exact moment her blade leaves the ice. Mao normally prerotates the jump about 90º and lands when a little bit less than a 1/4 turn lacks to complete the last rotation, so I don't see the problem. I'm not saying that all her other jumps are always clean, but her axel certainly is not that bad! Go and check Patrick's axels (and I really like him, BTW, I have nothing against him it's just an example) and you'll see that he does rotate almost the same as Mao in many of her axel attemps.

 

[neraiselle]

I'm not an expert but, as far as I know and after checking some men's triple axels it looks like a 1/4 prerotation in the take off is perfectly normal. I seriously don't see that Mao prerotates more than that and I don't understand why some people insist on counting rotations in her axel from the exact moment her blade leaves the ice. Mao normally prerotates the jump about 90º and lands when a little bit less than a 1/4 turn lacks to complete the last rotation, so I don't see the problem. I'm not saying that all her other jumps are always clean, but her axel certainly is not that bad! Go and check Patrick's axels (and I really like him, BTW, I have nothing against him it's just an example) and you'll see that he does rotate almost the same as Mao in many of her axel attemps.

I give due credit to Mao for her determination and resilience as well as massive talent, but Chan is not the best example you can make. He is not a strong axel jumper at all! His axel technique is not his forte.

 

[FS_rrb]

I give due credit to Mao for her determination and resilience as well as massive talent, but Chan is not the best example you can make. He is not a strong axel jumper at all! His axel technique is not his forte.

Yes, I know. I mentioned him as an example of a skater whose triple axels don't get scrutinized or strictly judged because he is a man and thus supposed to jump triple axels without major underotation problems. I'm not against people mentioning Mao's underotation issues, but I think that some have a tendency to be excessively strict because she's doing something rare and quite difficult for a woman. Her triple axel is not that underotated. If she had a little more power and her axel had more distance, even with the same degree of rotation I'm sure the jump would look much less suspicious to judges and most fans.

 

[hurrah]

I really have no problems with posters pointing out that Mao's flip technique is kind of iffy, so I don't complain about Mao's flips not getting high GOEs despite the short entry, flow out, great height and width, beautiful air position, transitions immediately out of the jump, because I can see that the technique itself is iffy. However, I really don't get how anyone can say Mao's axel technique is bad. Her setup edges are pristine, and her take-off is no more prerotated than the technique calls for, and her air position is to die for, and particularly in her short program, those transitions immediately after the jump are lovely. She does often land 1/4 under-rotation, but in fact, if triple-axels done by male jumpers were scrutinized as much as Mao's triple-axels are, you would find that men do this too.

She is a far, far better triple-axel jumper than Patrick Chan, Evan Lysacek and alot of other male skaters.

 

[FS_rrb]

I really have no problems with posters pointing out that Mao's flip technique is kind of iffy, so I don't complain about Mao's flips not getting high GOEs despite the short entry, flow out, great height and width, beautiful air position, transitions immediately out of the jump, because I can see that the technique itself is iffy. However, I really don't get how anyone can say Mao's axel technique is bad. Her setup edges are pristine, and her take-off is no more prerotated than the technique calls for, and her air position is to die for, and particularly in her short program, those transitions immediately after the jump are lovely. She does often land 1/4 under-rotation, but in fact, if triple-axels done by male jumpers were scrutinized as much as Mao's triple-axels are, you would find that men do this too.

She is a far, far better triple-axel jumper than Patrick Chan, Evan Lysacek and alot of other male skaters.

Exactly! Couldn't agree more :agree:

 

[neraiselle]

Yes, I know. I mentioned him as an example of a skater whose triple axels don't get scrutinized or strictly judged because he is a man and thus supposed to jump triple axels without major underotation problems. I'm not against people mentioning Mao's underotation issues, but I think that some have a tendency to be excessively strict because she's doing something rare and quite difficult for a woman. Her triple axel is not that underotated. If she had a little more power and her axel had more distance, even with the same degree of rotation I'm sure the jump would look much less suspicious to judges and most fans.

Okay now I can see your point more clearly. Thanks for clarifying, and I get your point about more lenient tendency towards men regarding triple axel.

 

[David21]

I really have no problems with posters pointing out that Mao's flip technique is kind of iffy, so I don't complain about Mao's flips not getting high GOEs despite the short entry, flow out, great height and width, beautiful air position, transitions immediately out of the jump, because I can see that the technique itself is iffy. However, I really don't get how anyone can say Mao's axel technique is bad. Her setup edges are pristine, and her take-off is no more prerotated than the technique calls for, and her air position is to die for, and particularly in her short program, those transitions immediately after the jump are lovely. She does often land 1/4 under-rotation, but in fact, if triple-axels done by male jumpers were scrutinized as much as Mao's triple-axels are, you would find that men do this too.

Mao slows down going into the triple axel and bends the upper body forward on the take-off which is not good technique. Considering that it doesn't get a lot of distance either, those are already quite a lot of flaws. I agree that her take-off edge isn't too bad with only about 1/4 prerotation which is acceptable. But when the is jump underotated as well (and she usually underroates by about 1/4 so it is often close to being called as >), the GOE for that jump should clearly be in the minuses even when it looks like to naked eye that she lands the jump "cleanly".

She is a far, far better triple-axel jumper than Patrick Chan, Evan Lysacek and alot of other male skaters.

Women who are attempting the 3A are getting the same BV as the men and should be held to same standard as men. Chan and Lysacek both don't have very good technique on the axel but to say that Mao has far better technique than them is exaggerrated. Lysacek had a big problem with prerotation and (to a lesser degree) underrotation; Chan is very inconsistant on the jump but the few time he actually lands it, it is quite ok otherwise.

 

[hurrah]

Mao slows down going into the triple axel and bends the upper body forward on the take-off which is not good technique.

Mao used to slow down noticably before her triple axel with an obvious slouch. She doesn't slow down s much anymore and there is no excessive slouch anymore. Try signing out of goldenskate and check out the photo that captures Mao's triple-axel at Olympics I have underneath my handle name. That is not a triple -axel with the technical issues you think Mao has.

 

[zamboni step]

Mao slows down going into the triple axel and bends the upper body forward on the take-off which is not good technique. Considering that it doesn't get a lot of distance either, those are already quite a lot of flaws. I agree that her take-off edge isn't too bad with only about 1/4 prerotation which is acceptable. But when the is jump underotated as well (and she usually underroates by about 1/4 so it is often close to being called as >), the GOE for that jump should clearly be in the minuses even when it looks like to naked eye that she lands the jump "cleanly".

No woman who can land a 3A could possibly have bad axel technique. As she is a woman she needs to do that to generate the power necessary to make the jump. It's not really a bad thing. Polina Edmund's jumps look a little borderline at points but no one is complaining about the positive GOE they get. Face it, the only reason Mao is so srcutinised is because she's doing something different. If she were a man, people would not her bending forward as odd but that would be it, there wouldn't be a big fuss about her GOE or anything. By the way, it's all well and good to say she should be deducted for under rotating by under a quarter when you're watching it in slow-mo, but the judges aren't allowed to do that, they have to gauge the GOE in real time. So if the slight lack of rotation isn't obvious in real time, it'd be completely unfair to deduct based off a gut feeling or a skaters reputation for under-rotating by less than a quarter.

 

[David21]

Mao used to slow down noticably before her triple axel with an obvious slouch. She doesn't slow down s much anymore and there is no excessive slouch anymore. Try signing out of goldenskate and check out the photo that captures Mao's triple-axel at Olympics I have underneath my handle name. That is not a triple -axel with the technical issues you think Mao has.

You probaby also think that Mao's doesn't bend forward on the take-off which is fact. Or that she often underrotates the axel and that all the > calls she gets on it are unfair on her etc.

I really shouldn't try to reason with the Maobots because it's useless.

No woman who can land a 3A could possibly have bad axel technique.

Useing this logic, Lysacek wouldn't have bad axel technique, either. You can land a jump and still have bad technique (btw I didn't say that Mao's is bad; I said it's not good) on it.