2015 World Team Trophy Free Dance Apr 17

[GF2445]

So weird. And even with Virtue/Moir... this was 3 points below their personal best.

I loooooove this FD by P/C and agree that it should have won, but this should be nowhere near those two teams' scores.

Whenever a team reaches a new level in the scoring, the judges get tentative and score conservatively. P/C's free dance, as spectacular as it was is not near V/M territory.
Their 111.06 at WTT15 does not equal Tessa and Scott's 110.57 at Vancouver Olympics.

 

[GF2445]

For weaver and poje, next season's SD and even the season after that should be a great for them. It's a theme i trust they are strong at.

 

[MidnightSkater]

Why are people so offended that another team could score over what V/M or D/W scored ?.
Sport moves on. Skaters get better.
It does not take the polish off D/W or V/M for others to score above them.
For me it means that ice dance is progressing which is what everyone should want.

 

[juliajk]

Why are people so offended that another team could score over what V/M or D/W scored ?.
Sport moves on. Skaters get better.
It does not take the polish off D/W or V/M for others to score above them.
For me it means that ice dance is progressing which is what everyone should want.

The problem is that it doesn't look like a progress, because the quality of skating of those teams are nowere near the quality VM and DW used to show, at least not yet. The only progress is in the scoring, not in actual skating.

 

[MidnightSkater]

The problem is that it doesn't look like a progress, because the quality of skating of those teams are nowere near the quality VM and DW used to show, at least not yet. The only progress is in the scoring, not in actual skating.

But that's your opinion.
I think the likes of W/P & P/C have amazing quality.
To say it's not near V/M or D/W is kind of insulting.

 

[beabstress]

For weaver and poje, next season's SD and even the season after that should be a great for them. It's a theme i trust they are strong at.

The 2016-17 pattern dance for the SD is the Midnight Blues, correct?

 

[GF2445]

The 2016-17 pattern dance for the SD is the Midnight Blues, correct?

yeah.
Ravensburger Waltz (i thinks its called that) for 2015-16
Midnight Blues for 2016-17.

W/P are a classy team. They will take these dances and the other prescribed styles well.

 

[aftertherain]

But that's your opinion.
I think the likes of W/P & P/C have amazing quality.
To say it's not near V/M or D/W is kind of insulting.

I don't think it's insulting when P/C and C/B are getting +3 GOE for weird twizzles. That's what everyone seems to be saying.

Everyone has an issue with how the twizzles are scored--this was even more apparent at Worlds when we had the Shibs, long-time training mates to D/W and V/M, to compare to.

 

[MK's Winter]

I don't think it's insulting when P/C and C/B are getting +3 GOE for weird twizzles. That's what everyone seems to be saying. Everyone has an issue with how the twizzles are scored--this was even more apparent at Worlds when we had the Shibs, long-time training mates to D/W and V/M, to compare to.

I agree with this. I look for ice coverage and I have not been seeing that with the top teams.

 

[GF2445]

But that's your opinion.
I think the likes of W/P & P/C have amazing quality.
To say it's not near V/M or D/W is kind of insulting.

They are not far off, but they are not there yet. It was too soon for the judges to reward so high.
Also, since ice dance is a sport, it is fair to make calls and comparisons like that. We dont need to protect the feelings of athletes because it's just sport. They can take it.

 

[Pika]

I don't think we should compare the dance teams in different seasons, talking about "VM or DW territory". Ice dancing judging is way more subjective than for Men, Ladies or Pairs, even if they're are some precise rules for the technical part. But what are GOEs, if not a way to compare skaters, just as PCs? Judges made a choice at the beginning of the season, giving already good scores to the favourite top teams, CB and WP when PC came as outsiders. Then, during the season, the programs evolve and improve, and so the scores do. At the end of the season, if the judges think PC's FD is better technically even with small mistakes, they give the GOEs to put they think they deserve compared to other teams. To my mind, scores are just the reflection of the evolution of the season, and are not to be compared with previous seasons, with couples that aren't competing.

But skating is such a hard sport, I think all skaters are so different but just as great. There should be a medal for everyone, just for the work accomplished.

 

[NoNameFace]

this whole discussion about Papadakis/Cizeron scores being or not being insulting for Virtue/Moir or Davis/White level is pointless at this point in my opinion. Let's face it - there's a very little chance for coming back these two teams into competition and show must go on, also with scoring. Overall, we're priviledged I think to have had posibillity to witness such amazing rivarly and level of skating from both duos, but many of us (including me also) have associated this kind of scores with V/M and D/W level of skating so it is somehow difficult to accept such scoring for still competing duos...

For Papadakis/Cizeron next season will be a real test one for sure in many areas - they'll go into it as World Champions with certain reputation and lots of expectations put on them. We'll see if these scores were gave for their performances or maybe the factor increasing was this special, magical FD...As I said in some other thread, this will be a hard act to follow for them

 

[beabstress]

yeah.
Ravensburger Waltz (i thinks its called that) for 2015-16
Midnight Blues for 2016-17.

W/P are a classy team. They will take these dances and the other prescribed styles well.

I agree. I think W/P will shine in both of those dances. Same for P/C (especially Midnight Blues). I see those dances as being more of a challenge for C/B.

 

[MidnightSkater]

I don't think it's insulting when P/C and C/B are getting +3 GOE for weird twizzles. That's what everyone seems to be saying.

Everyone has an issue with how the twizzles are scored--this was even more apparent at Worlds when we had the Shibs, long-time training mates to D/W and V/M, to compare to.

V/M & D/W BOTH made errors but were never really punished for it. They were never out of the top two for five years & were never going to be.

 

[MK's Winter]

V/M & D/W BOTH made errors but were never really punished for it. They were never out of the top two for five years & were never going to be.

Both teams did lose levels though. They were penalized but both teams built up to become really strong skaters. V/M and D/V have some of the best skating skills in the business.

 

[uhh]

Both teams did lose levels though. They were penalized but both teams built up to become really strong skaters. V/M and D/V have some of the best skating skills in the business.

Exactly - in 2013/14 when V/M were struggling with their FD, especially the lifts, it was reflected in the levels & GOE, and they got some lower scores as a consequence that left them close to teams like P/B & I/K. This season, it seems to me like it's been decided that P/C's FD is the "best", so no matter what technical issues they may have in each individual skate, they get the GOE & PCS boost to make sure they still come out on top. I'm not arguing with any of their placements this season (maybe worlds, but really you could make a case for any of the top 3 teams to win), but ever since Euros the actual marks they've been getting in comparison to other skaters have left me quite bemused.

Next season should be very exciting - Ravensburger is a dance that is particularly challenging for the woman & I wouldn't say that the female partner is the strongest in any of the top 3 or even 4 teams, so it will be interesting who can rise to the challenge. Timing is also king in that dance, same with the Blues so it will separate out those who can truly skate to the rhythm rather than the melody.

 

[LauraV]

V/M & D/W BOTH made errors but were never really punished for it. They were never out of the top two for five years & were never going to be.

Not true, not at all. When those teams made errors, their scores clearly reflected it.

When V&M did Carmen for the first time on the Grand Prix circuit, at Skate Canada, they made observable errors and were penalized for them.

When D&W did their Tango FD for the first time on the Grand Prix Circuit, at Skate America, back in the autumn of 2010, they made some uncharacteristic major errors and were clearly punished for them.

These are just two examples; numerous others could be cited.

P&C are a fine team and their FD is lovely. But it's premature for them to be getting V&M and D&W scores. It is no insult to P&C to make this simple observation. The inflated scores suggest a whiff of desperation on the part of dance judge community - it's as if they want to assure the public that the sport can survive the retirements of V&M and D&W by claiming there is no loss of quality at the top. And of course the sport will survive, and who knows, maybe some day P&C and other teams will indeed surpass V&M and D&W. But it seems like the judges are trying to rush the process by giving scores that exceed the quality of skating that P&C are actually delivering at this moment. In fact, the same is true of C&B and W&P, if to a lesser extent.

I like all three teams, btw.

 

[wasabi]

Not true, not at all. When those teams made errors, their scores clearly reflected it.

When V&M did Carmen for the first time on the Grand Prix circuit, at Skate Canada, they made observable errors and were penalized for them.

When D&W did their Tango FD for the first time on the Grand Prix Circuit, at Skate America, back in the autumn of 2010, they made some uncharacteristic major errors and were clearly punished for them.

These are just two examples; numerous others could be cited.

P&C are a fine team and their FD is lovely. But it's premature for them to be getting V&M and D&W scores. It is no insult to P&C to make this simple observation. The inflated scores suggest a whiff of desperation on the part of dance judge community - it's as if they want to assure the public that the sport can survive the retirements of V&M and D&W by claiming there is no loss of quality at the top. And of course the sport will survive, and who knows, maybe some day P&C and other teams will indeed surpass V&M and D&W. But it seems like the judges are trying to rush the process by giving scores that exceed the quality of skating that P&C are actually delivering at this moment. In fact, the same is true of C&B and W&P, if to a lesser extent.

I like all three teams, btw.

The scores may have reflected an error but the placements were consistently 1/2 for VM and DW. Predictable.
P/C finish was out of the blue - never happens in ice dance. Deserved or not technically , it was very refreshing.

 

[uhh]

The scores may have reflected an error but the placements were consistently 1/2 for VM and DW. Predictable.

But really, who in the last quad should have been beating them if they made mistakes? P/B were creative but didn't have the same basic quality & often made errors themselves, and no one else was good enough to be able capitalise if V/M or D/W made mistakes.

Maybe it is refreshing for some to see a team come from nowhere, but I'd rather have accurate judging that holds all couples to the same standards.

 

[aftertherain]

The scores may have reflected an error but the placements were consistently 1/2 for VM and DW. Predictable.
P/C finish was out of the blue - never happens in ice dance. Deserved or not technically , it was very refreshing.

No one is arguing that they shouldn't have won. Most people ate just wondering why their scores are so high and why they seem to be penalized less!