2015 World Team Trophy Ladies FS Apr 18

[Matilda]

I don't think so, about the politics angle. What do the international judges care if this girl or that is U.S. number 1 (to quote Mrs. Tarasova regarding the 1998 Olympics)? What do they care what Frank Carroll thinks?

I've heard both skaters and coaches--in private--discuss politicking, about who the federetation is pushing and not pushing, etc. In off-season training camps national judges--who usually include international level judges as well--communicate with coaches and federation representatives, and give skaters and coaches feedback on what works and doesn't work. The feedback is important for the skaters and their teams, but it does also create situations where judges, federation representatives, and coaches can get a bit too cozy with one another.

When the same international level judges then go to international competitions, they meet with other judges. I'm not saying they deliberately push one skater or another, but they can, even unwittingly, make comments that indicate who the federation favors etc. Again, not saying any of it is necessarily intentional, but that the cozyness with coaches and fed represenatatives potentially translates into more generous scores for certain skaters and more scrutiny for others. Moreover, someone like Carroll, who trains skaters from several federations, is in a position to be favored by judges from those other countries too. Same with someone like Zoueva.

Maybe hanging around rinks, competitions, and training camps has made me particularly skeptical, but I can't help it.

ETA. I was trying to be nice: in all honesty I do believe there is deliberate politicking

 

[Krunchii]

Gracie indeed has speed and covers a lot of ice. To me this is obvious even on TV.
Wagner's SS aren't up to par even when she skates very well. She is a great performer, but her SS are weak.

There are moments on TV when I see it like when they zoom out, when the camera is focused on you it's a little less obvious. I agree about Ashley's SS, just that in her SP at Worlds in general everything just kind of fell apart.

 

[Alba]

There are moments on TV when I see it like when they zoom out, when the camera is focused on you it's a little less obvious. I agree about Ashley's SS, just that in her SP at Worlds in general everything just kind of fell apart.

I agree. It's always less obvious in TV to judge the speed and ice coverage, but overall if you compare them it's quite noticeable. Satoko for example has a lot of speed as well. As for Ashley, I didn't fully understand till I saw her live at TEB. I was very surprised how little ice she covers, especially in her SP. I don't know if it was because of the layout as well or what....:think:

 

[Krunchii]

I agree. It's always less obvious in TV to judge the speed and ice coverage, but overall if you compare them it's quite noticeable. Satoko for example has a lot of speed as well. As for Ashley, I didn't fully understand till I saw her live at TEB. I was very surprised how little ice she covers, especially in her SP. I don't know if it was because of the layout as well or what....:think:

Yeah I can tell the difference if we put them side by side but I guess at home when the camera focuses just on skaters, we judge more by single elements. Satoko has a lot of speed, but she needs to skate bigger, I think people have had this discussion before, her SS and speed are better than Ashley but when you compare them on screen it doesn't feel like there's a huge difference in terms of stuff like ice coverage because Ashley skates really big despite being a petite person. But Satoko is young, her performance skills are already quite lovely and she's got lots of time to get better.

And a lot of us have been harping on the choreo and layout of that SP all season, had the potential to be good but doesn't hit the good parts of the music and the choreo is a bit empty at some parts. I hope she doesn't have Adam choreograph for her again next season, didn't enjoy it as much as her other programs.

 

[Sandpiper]

I call it FCP--Frank Carroll Points--which pretty much equals USA Number One Points. Politicking is the nasty side of figure skating that would have made me stop watching figure skating a long time ago, if I didn't love the sport itself so much. Props to the skaters who keep working so hard although they know the politics may/will interfere.

Ashley was on fire today and definitely deserved higher PCS today, and the break on TES that some other skaters got (I'd be fine with her score if the techinal caller had been consistent). Luckily she's usually not one to get discouraged, but rather just get motivated to work harder. She's a fighter!

Liza's 3A was simply breathtaking and she skated almost clean--she deserves her win. What an amazing, but gruellingly long season she has had! I hope she gets a good rest now and comes back next season with renewed energy and great programs! I'm also interested to see Elena's new programs--I love that girl's spirit and smile!

So, on to the long off-season we go. Let the splits and speculations begin!

:thumbsup: to all of this.

I understand that Gracie generates PCS with her SS, so that's why her PCS don't really take a hit when she underperforms. What I don't understand is where she's pulling her marks in P/E, INT, and CH (and this applies to both clean and messy Gracie). I understand she tried harder than 4CC and was smiling throughout (instead of looking pissed at herself Anna Pogorilaya-style)... but the constant smile is one-note, doesn't seem authentic, and actually doesn't work with her music either.

And yes, before anyone asks: I admit Liza was overscored too. She still deserved the win (but with something like 65 PCS--still high but appropriate enough for WTT), since Elena made mistakes too and didn't give as much ooomph! as usual. Satoko was underscored in PCS, but overscored in TES, so it basically amounts to the same mark. I can a case for her finishing above Elena for the reasons above... (but I also see a bigger case of Ashley finishing above both of them, so )

 

[gotoschool]

Could be the camera angle, but Liza seems to enter her 3A very slow, and it just goes vertically up and down, quite high but without covering much distance. Mao's 3A seems to have more speed, cover more ice, and better flow out (when it's landed).

I honestly think Mao has a better 3A than Liza. Both of them do the jump well, but there's something about Mao's 3A that I can't really describe. Which makes me ask this question: Why did one judge give Liza a +3 on the 3A when Mao never got a +3 ever in her whole life?

I think Liza's triple axel was really good, with nice height and good rotation, but I agree with these posts, though I don't think Liza's entrance is really that slow. I like Mao's better because of the more graceful and elegant movement, the dramatic staging on entrance and greater distance of the jump, as well as the greater speed and flow out when Mao lands it, combined with Mao's better posture and landing position. Mao also has the dynamic of delayed rotation turning into quick whipsaw revolutions with beautiful symmetry.

 

[Mrs. P]

Ashley does have a presence about her, imo. Her basics are definitely not as good as Gracie for sure when comparing the two, but When I saw both at Nationals last year, I did find Ashley more engaging even with not great programs. I can appreciate why Gracie get good PCS scores but I was not as engaged with her performances. I know that doesn't necarily translate score wise, but just my personal impression.

Besides those two, I've see Mae Bernice live...she has huge jumps but she definitely needs work in other areas.

 

[Alba]

Ashley does have a presence about her, imo. Her basics are definitely not as good as Gracie for sure when comparing the two, but When I saw both at Nationals last year, I did find Ashley more engaging even with not great programs.

I agree with that. :thumbsup:

 

[Krunchii]

Ashley does have a presence about her, imo. Her basics are definitely not as good as Gracie for sure when comparing the two, but When I saw both at Nationals last year, I did find Ashley more engaging even with not great programs. I can appreciate why Gracie get good PCS scores but I was not as engaged with her performances. I know that doesn't necarily translate score wise, but just my personal impression.

Besides those two, I've see Mae Bernice live...she has huge jumps but she definitely needs work in other areas.

Ashley is way more compelling to watch than Gracie imo, with good choreography and a program that suits her like Moulin Rouge I would pick her over Gracie anyday. I appreciate Gracie technically but I don't watch her outside of competitions.

Either way I will see Ashley at SOI in a few weeks and I'm so excited I can barely concentrate on studying for my last exam. The meet and greet tickets were sold out before I decided to shell out the money for them and I'm so bummed

 

[[email protected]]

Now that Lisa showed she can make a regular clean 3A I am not sure that Mao will ever return. If Yulia comes back it will be between her and Lisa next season.

 

[minze]

Now that Lisa showed she can make a regular clean 3A I am not sure that Mao will ever return. If Yulia comes back it will be between her and Lisa next season.

Mao's return or not would have nothing to do with Liza. Mao has a lot of things to consider and bet Liza is not in the top of that list.

 

[aftertherain]

Now that Lisa showed she can make a regular clean 3A I am not sure that Mao will ever return. If Yulia comes back it will be between her and Lisa next season.

I think it's too early to call it a "regular clean 3A" because it's not one. It's super spectacular when she lands it though.

 

[amc987]

I don't know why Ashley was so low and Gracie was so high. Gracie's program was messy with 2 major mistakes and one wonky landing no matter how good her SS may be. I don't think she should've outscored Ashley in PCS. I don't know how that's possible given PE/IN/CH which should all have gone to Wagner today.

Additionally, Ashley's 3Z-3T looked okay to me. I think the UR call was probably right on the 3S given the pre-rotation and the fact that she finished the last bit of rotation on the ice.

Hope both US ladies come back stronger next year, Ashley with a different jump layout/ better consistency on the 3-3s and Gracie with better program vehicles/ a stronger mental attitude.

 

[artsciboy]

Definitely agree that Ashley got lowballed on the PCS marks and didn't get the benefit of the doubt on her 3-3 combos. I love how "Moulin Rouge" has evolved over the season - the little nuances she added post-Nationals make it less empty and she just really knows how to sell it. Loved the speed and transitions she had into that final 3z - she clearly got too excited, hence the edge switch/error.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Ladies' placements as at a regular event:


1 Elizaveta TUKTAMYSHEVA RUS 205.14 (70.93 + 134.21)
2 Elena RADIONOVA RUS 198.50 (68.77 + 129.73)
3 Gracie GOLD USA 195.55 (71.26 +124.29)
4 Ashley WAGNER USA 191.51 (64.55 + 126.96)
5 Satoko MIYAHARA JPN 189.64 (60.52 +129.12)
6 Kanako MURAKAMI JPN 175.71 (62.39 + 113.32)
7 Zijun LI CHN 162.50 (58.83 + 103.67)
8 Gabrielle DALEMAN CAN 150.46 (57.59 + 98.87)
9 Laurine LECAVELIER FRA 148.27 (52.84 + 95.43)
10 Mae Berenice MEITE FRA 142.83 (52.06 + 90.77)
11 Alaine CHARTRAND CAN 136.54 (54.64 + 81.90)
12 Ziquan ZHAO CHN 134.80 (58.83 + 75.97)

So it's 2 Russians, followed by 2 Americans, then 2 Japanese.

Liza's FS score alone almost equals Ziquan's total.

 

[CarneAsada]

Now that Lisa showed she can make a regular clean 3A I am not sure that Mao will ever return. If Yulia comes back it will be between her and Lisa next season.

Julia has had a whole year to destroy her reputation while Liza has spent the whole year getting hers to the tune of 68 PCS. If Liza hits she can outscore Elena no matter what the latter does, why would Julia be any different?

 

[Mathman]

Julia has had a whole year to destroy her reputation while Liza has spent the whole year getting hers to the tune of 68 PCS. If Liza hits she can outscore Elena no matter what the latter does, why would Julia be any different?

Liza had a couple of down seasons a while back, now she's riding high. Julia had a bad year, time to bounce back. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[Art&Sport]

... who would have thought Gracie and Ashley would falter so badly after having a huge lead...

Gracie faltered (and she only had a slight lead over Liza Tukt after sp; TeamUSA lead overall was about 5 or 6 points going into FPs, but the final overall score was always going to be close). Ashley did not falter in the fp, she skated well with a minor fall-out, though it looks like the judges went hunting for stuff to ding her on and take points off. Still she had no major miscues, and came in 4th in both sp and fp.

I feel like some of the judging is based on perception and politics and neither Gracie nor especially Ashley are politically favored right now internationally. Gracie would be if she could start believing in herself and make her nerves work for her. IMO Ashley and Gracie are both much more mature and refined skaters than Elena Radionova, and even Satoko who still has some growing to do. Clearly Gracie and Ashley aren't helping themselves unless they begin to lay programs down consistently and take advantage of opportunities to make a positive statement with the judges.

 

[[email protected]]

Julia has had a whole year to destroy her reputation while Liza has spent the whole year getting hers to the tune of 68 PCS. If Liza hits she can outscore Elena no matter what the latter does, why would Julia be any different?

Julia has the biggest Wow factor among fans worldwide - just look at her fan page here. One just cannot dismiss that. If she comes stronger than before with better jumps - a perfect lutz we already saw - she can score in 210 - 215 range or even more same as Liza and no one else.

 

[Sugarpova]

enjoyed Satoko & Zijun the most in FS
Great approach for Liza tho both her & Lenochka seemed tired Go rest ladies & come back even stronger!

lovely to read that Im not alone in being bitter over Ashley & Gracie scores....


ugh Mae such great music & programmes but u have to execute them!:scowl: