2016 US Nationals Senior Men SP

[zschultz1986]

My opinions (I know you've all been waiting with baited breath):

Max: It was clean, so good on him for that, and he looks trained and ready for this championship. I really don't think he does enough with the music. It's like he skating through the music, and not with the music. The little things like the lunge down at the beginning of the program, it still look like someone just doing choreography instead of someone performing. I say all this, and yet, there been a marked improvement from where he was. I still think his movement (choreo, not speed/power) needs more breath, it would give the choreography more weight. I keep rewatching that lunge. Does anyone else get where I'm coming from?

Nathan: Well, he's certainly the future. I was watching on a Japanese feed and they were all excited for him. Just need to clean up the jumps. I think it's smart of him to use Michael Jackson, it gives a certain character we're all used to, and lets him perform, which I think he did rather well. I'm excited for him.

Adam: Not his best night with the lutz combo. Triple Axel has certainly become a better jump for him. It was performed well. It was a good program from Adam.

I'll watch Ross as soon as I find a video.

I'm fine with the scores. Max was bound to get some good PCS, as he was clean, though I still think he should be in the mid 7s for Choreo/Composition.

The lack of Jason/Joshua still has me sad.

 

[Eclair]

Okay I've now watched the top four and from what I've read in this thread I expected Nathan's SS and presentation to be on Boyang or Voronov level.
All the people saying how he still has room for improvement in the pcs and spins department etc.

REALLY? Nathan being in fourth?! Have you gone insane USFSA? He was MASSIVELY underscored. FIRST US man to land 2 quads. His SS is better than Aaron's. If he had skated for Japan, they would have aknowledged Nathans potential and NEVER ever would have placed Adam (love him but he didn't even skate clean nor had a quad) above him. SEND NATHAN TO WORLDS IF YOU AREN'T ACTIVLY TRYING TO SABOTAGE YOUR OWN SPORT!

I'm a lot for balanced skating - (jumps AND presentation) but Nathan is NOT lacking in either department. Honestly, I don't know how the judges didn't see Nathan's potential - he certainly has a better chance internationally than Adam or Ross. And with his lines and SS it won't take long to have a better shot at worlds than Max.

I just don't get. (Okay, enough rambling for now)

 

[zschultz1986]

Okay I've now watched the top four and from what I've read in this thread I expected Nathan's SS and presentation to be on Boyang or Voronov level.
All the people saying how he still has room for improvement in the pcs and spins department etc.

REALLY? Nathan being in fourth?! Have you gone insane USFSA? He was MASSIVELY underscored. FIRST US man to land 2 quads. His SS is better than Aaron's. If he had skated for Japan, they would have aknowledged Nathans potential and NEVER ever would have placed Adam (love him but he didn't even skate clean nor had a quad) above him. SEND NATHAN TO WORLDS IF YOU AREN'T ACTIVLY TRYING TO SABOTAGE YOUR OWN SPORT!

I'm a lot for balanced skating - (jumps AND presentation) but Nathan is NOT lacking in either department. Honestly, I don't know how the judges didn't see Nathan's potential - he certainly has a better chance internationally than Adam or Ross. And with his lines and SS it won't take long to have a better shot at worlds than Max.

I just don't get. (Okay, enough rambling for now)

He turned out of the 4S and put a hand-down on the 3A. Say what you will, but those are rather big mistakes in a field where there between Adam, Ross, and Max, the only bad jump was a wonky lutz combo by Adam. First to fourth is only 5 points of separation, so it's not like they low balled him out of a chance to earn a worlds spot. He's just got to skate very well on Sunday.

 

[Icey]

Concerned about lack of quads????? Nearly 40 percent of the men managed only a double axel. IMO that is entirely too high for a senior competition.

 

[Skater Boy]

Well Adam and the absent Jason are two of perhaps the strongs pcs skaters the US has. Some say sometimes Ross, Farris etc. but very few are the level of Hanyu, Chan or Lambiel and Buttle - simply stated what makes them special is that there are very few who attain that magical quality - though we or th epublic do our best lol to raise skaters to that level. I should apologize if I suggested Chen wasn't good pc wise he is but he is developing very nicely and is ahead of the game than say Nam though in fairness nam is lucky to be in the game - not too too many can stay that competitive with such a growth spurt - his is not the norm - there is growth and skaters have to deal with it but it so udns like nam's is phenomenal Chen has all the promises of being the next great one. But right now at this nationals these are at best second or third tier pc skaters with Rippon who has the fluidity, edge quality being probably at the top. I agree with the posters that Ma is trying but it is not in him shall we say - he doesn't feel this music, it is not an extension naturally of him but rather well taught or choreographed.

 

[da96103]

About Phil Hersh's article, I am not sure exactly what he is advocating for. The judges cannot give more points for a quad than the ISU scale of values allows.

Is he saying that the judges should have given Nathan higher scores in choreography and interpretation because he did a two quads? Should they give Jason Brown lower component scores than he deserves because he is not competitive with Hanyu?

Yes, the American men are behind the international pace-setters, but that's not the fault of the judging.

I think Phil Hersh is criticizing the US judges for sabotaging an opportunity to direct the progress of US male skaters towards quads in SP in order to be competitive internationally. May people have concluded that Max should be far ahead than what it is now with his quad program. And Chen should also be higher up. By rewarding quad-less short program from Rippon and Miner, it is sending the wrong signals to youngsters.

Thankfully Chen and Zhou (and their coaches) learnt from NHK and GPF rather than the US Nationals. The minute they are allowed to do a quad (or two) in SP when they graduate to seniors, they do it, as their counterparts Jin and Shoma have done.

The commentators were right in supporting Zhou's attempt at quad salchow even if it was double-carroted. They say it is good to just put it out there. The commentators are going towards the right direction. They did not say maybe he should have done the 3Lz instead. The judges on the other hand are living in Lysacek's dinosaur era.

How should the judges reward quads in SP? It is up to them. If they had the right mindset and had the insight for a better future for US men skaters, they would have done so.

Look at Hanyu, he does not really need 5 quads in SP + FS but he still does it and he is preparing his 3rd different quad 4Lo. Maybe he wants to have the highest TES + GOE for his programs so that he can be never be Sotnikova-ed. And Javier is just catching up with with a 2-quad SP. And Chan is doing his second 3A in FS and is contemplating the 4S before Olympics.

 

[semosk8tfan]

http://www.rockerskating.com/news/2016/1/22/post-game-thoughts-2016-us-nationals-day-2

Interesting take and one I agree with.

 

[Olympic]

I had no problems w/ the results.

For the record, I am also frustrated by the lack of quads. But, realistically -

Ross's quadless SP at Cup of Russia garnered 85+ points, and he got 90.90 here for a squeaky clean performance. So, the USFSA judges are not too far out of line. By the way, Johnny Weir during the GP series picked up on what is preventing Ross from successfully executing a 4sal; something about opening up his hip. It would be great if he could perfect the technique on that and insert it into the SP.

Adam was scoring over 80 points in the SP on the GP series w/ a downgraded 4z and a fall, so an SP w/ a 3-3, 3x, and a solo 3 would be worth mid-80s internationally. No. He's not in contention for a world medal, but again the SP score is not too out of line.

 

[da96103]

Okay I've now watched the top four and from what I've read in this thread I expected Nathan's SS and presentation to be on Boyang or Voronov level.
All the people saying how he still has room for improvement in the pcs and spins department etc.

REALLY? Nathan being in fourth?! Have you gone insane USFSA? He was MASSIVELY underscored. FIRST US man to land 2 quads. His SS is better than Aaron's. If he had skated for Japan, they would have aknowledged Nathans potential and NEVER ever would have placed Adam (love him but he didn't even skate clean nor had a quad) above him. SEND NATHAN TO WORLDS IF YOU AREN'T ACTIVLY TRYING TO SABOTAGE YOUR OWN SPORT!

I'm a lot for balanced skating - (jumps AND presentation) but Nathan is NOT lacking in either department. Honestly, I don't know how the judges didn't see Nathan's potential - he certainly has a better chance internationally than Adam or Ross. And with his lines and SS it won't take long to have a better shot at worlds than Max.

I just don't get. (Okay, enough rambling for now)

I think it was because he skated fourth. I thought he qualified through bye and not regionals. I remembered reading that all the skaters qualified through byes get to be in the last two groups, but Nathan was in first group.

 

[silverfoxes]

Concerned about lack of quads????? Nearly 40 percent of the men managed only a double axel. IMO that is entirely too high for a senior competition.

Exactly! Young kids (boys and girls) can do 2As...this is not acceptable for a senior men's event. Especially for a large fed like the US. But since so many people here are totally ok and happy with the status quo, nothing will change and the US men's field will continue to be a joke until the likes of Nathan, Vincent, and Andrew mature & hopefully start getting some decent scores. (I do respect Max, & Adam for at least trying the 4lz...if he can't do a quad then he can't do one, but at least he pushed himself to try for awhile.)

 

[da96103]

Ashley on Twitter nails it:

Ashley Wagner ‏@AshWagner2010 1m1 minute ago
Also, anyone else feel like Max is missing like five points? #USChamps16

topic: Not a fan of Wagner since she stole Mirai's Olympic's place, but this girl has some sass. Reminds of of Hit Girl in the Kick-*** movies.
If she gets her head together in SP, I'll be a new fan.

 

[Eclair]

He turned out of the 4S and put a hand-down on the 3A. Say what you will, but those are rather big mistakes in a field where there between Adam, Ross, and Max, the only bad jump was a wonky lutz combo by Adam. First to fourth is only 5 points of separation, so it's not like they low balled him out of a chance to earn a worlds spot. He's just got to skate very well on Sunday.

1. Nathan rotated his quads.
2. He was the first US man to land two of them in the sp, in a time when US men are struggling to keep up internationally because they lack in technical content.
3. He has splendid SS and skated to the music, with good (not brilliant) choreography.

Therefore, yes, I think he should have placed above Adam, who had a stepout out of the lutz combo and a wonky 3axel.
It should be Adam chasing Nathan in the long, not Nathan behind Adam. And I say this a huge Adam fan. Adam's performance was incredible and I love watching him. But I would rather have Nathan going to worlds than him.

 

[artsciboy]

He turned out of the 4S and put a hand-down on the 3A. Say what you will, but those are rather big mistakes in a field where there between Adam, Ross, and Max, the only bad jump was a wonky lutz combo by Adam. First to fourth is only 5 points of separation, so it's not like they low balled him out of a chance to earn a worlds spot. He's just got to skate very well on Sunday.

Thank you! I like Nathan - but I've been really tired of people talking about how he was the first to land two quads in the SP without acknowledging that the 4S was flawed. Not to mention the hand down on the 3axel. I feel like commentators/journalists/fans should be consistent with what counts as actually "landing" and "clean", otherwise all skaters should just be trying new jumps even if they turnout and still go around and say they "landed" the jump in competition, which is ludicrous to me.

 

[badknees]

Ashley Wagner ‏@AshWagner2010 1m1 minute ago
Also, anyone else feel like Max is missing like five points? #USChamps16

topic: Not a fan of Wagner since she stole Mirai's Olympic's place, but this girl has some sass. Reminds of of Hit Girl in the Kick-*** movies.
If she gets her head together in SP, I'll be a new fan.

Ashley did not steal anything. USFSA made the decision. Ashley had nothing to do with it. She got a text informing her that she was going to Sochi, that's all.

 

[artsciboy]

1. Nathan rotated his quads.
2. He was the first US man to land two of them in the sp, in a time when US men are struggling to keep up internationally because they lack in technical content.
3. He has splendid SS and skated to the music, with good (not brilliant) choreography.

Therefore, yes, I think he should have placed above Adam, who had a stepout out of the lutz combo and a wonky 3axel.
It should be Adam chasing Nathan in the long, not Nathan behind Adam. And I say this a huge Adam fan. Adam's performance was incredible and I love watching him. But I would rather have Nathan going to worlds than him.

Nathan rotated two quads, but I given the error on the 4salchow I really take issue with the position that he "landed" two quads in the SP. Plus, Nathan's hand down on the 3axel is way worse than Adam's air position in his.

 

[HanDomi]

First of all, a bit of summary from me

Nathan did not landed two quads in full meaning of this word. He rotated the quad sal but had turn out from it, which doesn't count as jump performed cleanly and finished of course. He landed 4T3T cleanly, and had hand down on 3A.
I think his score was about right. Definitely not too low.

Adam was definitely overscored.

Ross.. hard to say, maybe two points.

Max was the most overscored on PCS imo and I like him very much but, just too big diffrence with Chen who is not worse than Max.

 

[Eclair]

Nathan rotated two quads, but I given the error on the 4salchow I really take issue with the position that he "landed" two quads in the SP. Plus, Nathan's hand down on the 3axel is way worse than Adam's air position in his.

Then maybe I should have phrased it like this: nathan is the first us man to rotate 2quads, one a 4-3 combo in the sp.
and it's insane the judges thought he is less likely to be competitive internationlly than Adam. Because that's what they're saying with the way they're judging them.

 

[Mathman]

How should the judges reward quads in SP? It is up to them. If they had the right mindset and had the insight for a better future for US men skaters, they would have done so.

That is where I think Hersh is wrong. It is not "up to the judges" how to reward quads. It is up to the technical panel to call "quad Sal!" and the computer does the rest. It is "up to the judges" to give a bonus in GOE for a quad that is done exceptionally well, and it is "up to the judges" to evaluate the difficulty and variety of transitions, the matching of skating movement to musical structure, etc., in the PCSs.

It is not the responsibility of the judges, of all people, to try to make U.S. skaters better. Have they no coaches?

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I think since IJS changed the meaning of "landed" fans and journalists have followed suit. I think once it's officially ratified as a quad by the caller and there's no fall warranting an automatic deduction or a double foot, people usually take it as landed. Maybe fans can say "technically landed". The USFS likes giving people the benefit of doubt with these historical-making moments like with Meissner officially becoming the second woman to land a triple axel at nationals despite the fact that axel was no where near fully rotated and the landing may have been one foot but it was messy as heck.

BTW, I have to say I found Adam way more impressive in the past in terms of his presentation and dance. I found that he lost a lot of his flow, is stiffer, and his choreography seems very cut and paste to me where he's just going from one well-shaped pose to another in-between the elements.

 

[sloveniangirl]

I think Phil Hersh is criticizing the US judges for sabotaging an opportunity to direct the progress of US male skaters towards quads in SP in order to be competitive internationally. May people have concluded that Max should be far ahead than what it is now with his quad program. And Chen should also be higher up. By rewarding quad-less short program from Rippon and Miner, it is sending the wrong signals to youngsters.

Thankfully Chen and Zhou (and their coaches) learnt from NHK and GPF rather than the US Nationals. The minute they are allowed to do a quad (or two) in SP when they graduate to seniors, they do it, as their counterparts Jin and Shoma have done.

The commentators were right in supporting Zhou's attempt at quad salchow even if it was double-carroted. They say it is good to just put it out there. The commentators are going towards the right direction. They did not say maybe he should have done the 3Lz instead. The judges on the other hand are living in Lysacek's dinosaur era.

How should the judges reward quads in SP? It is up to them. If they had the right mindset and had the insight for a better future for US men skaters, they would have done so.

Look at Hanyu, he does not really need 5 quads in SP + FS but he still does it and he is preparing his 3rd different quad 4Lo. Maybe he wants to have the highest TES + GOE for his programs so that he can be never be Sotnikova-ed. And Javier is just catching up with with a 2-quad SP. And Chan is doing his second 3A in FS and is contemplating the 4S before Olympics.

What does that mean? :con3: