2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[frida80]

^^^^ Spectacular and completely true!!! Bravo....

How did you read that disertation that fast? I keep wanting to go back and narrow it down!

 

[Moxiejan]

Wagner CLEARLY entered a slump last season that she's yet to get out of. She had her worst GP career finish, missed GPF for the first time in years, somewhat bounced back at Nationals (but even with Gold out of the picture, couldn't clinch the win)...and then sub-par again at Worlds. Last season was NOT her year at all. :noshake: We shall see soon enough whether she can turn this around or not.

Since Wagner hasn't competed internationally this season, how would it even be possible for her "yet to get out of" whatever slump you think she's in? Last year, she won a GP event (the only U.S. lady to do so), was 1st alternate to the final (the highest U.S. lady) and second at Nationals (that placement was due to her own scores over Mariah & Mirai; Gracie was never in the picture). Yes, her placement at Worlds slipped from 2 to 7, but she still contributed to the U.S. getting three spots for 2018. And the 7th is right in line with her 6 straight top 7s at Worlds: 4, 5, 7, 5, 2, 7.

Other than Michelle Kwan, what other U.S. lady from the GP era has done better?

 

[mrrice]

How did you read that disertation that fast? I keep wanting to go back and narrow it down!

Well, I was a good student and when I see your name on a post, I get excited because I know how much you appreciate good skating.

 

[MK's Winter]

I think the USFS needs to have some serious meetings once this season is over. If they didn't have Nathan- 3 out of 4 disciplines are failing. Nathan and Dance are realistically our only medal shots at the Olympics. It doesn't matter what US ladies are sent. If everyone skated clean no US lady is in danger of making the podium.

The Federation needs a serious re-branding if skating is going to thrive in the US. They make nothing accessible to the public to gain interest. The current performance director has no results to show for and yet still has job. It's no wonder that we are where we are.

 

[R.D.]

...and we think it's bad now...wait until Wagner and Nagasu retire...other than Chen, who has produced notable results internationally? It could be 2009 all over again.

 

[Miss Ice]

THe problem is not money. The problem is we are now a nation that produces participants and not competitors. It starts very early and it will take a long time to change. I'll explain.

THere is a huge difference between ladies and men's skating. With men's you can outscore people by learning quads. You can't do that in ladies skating. Or at least women don't do that. Therefore, they learn their triples and then they immediately start learning how to be more artistic because that's what gets you on top of the US podium. So many politics keep potential ladies from even getting close to the podium. So we are stuck with a few good skaters that aren't really challenged at the top because ladies that could more technically proficient are artificially downplayed by the tech panel.

I've followed younger skaters for years. At Juvenile, Intermediate, Novice, and Junior. I find at Juvenile there's more competition. No one is allowed to skate with higher than a 2A so girl's field is very deep at this level. Club competitions need qualifying rounds to narrow the fields down. There are always large amounts of girls to compete against at club competition. So by nationals, you are seeing very polished girls who have deliberately developed components and spins and have the mental game needed to compete.

After that the field gets smaller. Most kids will never manage a 2A, so they drop out or just skate occasionally for fun. The ones that do win are the ones that consistently land their basic triples the most. Our tech controllers at both club and national qualifying comps are lax, so many girls get by with underrotations that would never fly internationally. By juniors you wind up with two types of winners, the ones that skate clean or the ones that are the most artistic. It's only recently that triple triples seem to be a priority for some coaches. But unfortunately, that's not enough. Audrey Shin is super talented, but her under rotations are terrible. She often loses at domestic competitions because she can't rotate the jumps. Naturally, internationally that means she got hammered by the tech panel there. However, she is a second highest scoring junior lady domestically! Hannah, how outscored her in Asian open has only gotten a 152 to Audrey's 162.

There are so many problems, but I feel like many of them could be solved by a few moves.

1. Better tech controllers.

Last year, watching Brynne at Skate Detroit I saw underrotations on all of her jumps, but she didn't get called on any of them. Internationally, she got called. At the very least, at monitored competitions the tech controllers need to be at international level harshness. The < have to stop.

2. More serious competition.

Especially for Novice and Juniors, where most girls have move on. Here is when you have small competitions where it's obvious that one girl is going to win, no question. It's not because she's super talented, but because she just has the highest technical content so no one else can compete against her. So it's like winning by default. Weak competitions make weak competitors. Girl's like this will win despite being inconsistent, having falls, poor spins, or underrotations. I think US figure skating needs to make more of an effort to get novice and junior skaters in competitors with girls at their technical level. There are the monitored competitions like Skate Detroit and GF. However, I think if there was some sort of incentive more higher level ladies would compete.

For example, I would require all ladies to skate at least 3 monitored competitions to go to international competitions. Include novices in this equation. Tell them that the highest scoring 5 of each level will qualify to be sent either to the JGP or smaller international comps for juniors and novices. Kids go nuts for their Team USA jacket, so this is a definite draw. Watching Bradie was a perfect case study. She competed in three competitions from May to August. She not only won each of them, but did it with tough competition in Philly Intl. I like that method of choosing for SA and think it should be employed for all international comps that USFS can select their skaters for.

3. Do a qualifying competition for all JGP participants.

I know I just suggested an average of competitions for JGP slots, but bare with me. I feel like there needs to be one competition that puts a lot of pressure on these girls early. Like a nationals but earlier. I feel like often JGP competitors are fully prepared. If you look at Emily on the JGP and then at Junior nationals, you see a vastly improved skater. If they knew by August 7th, there was a qualifying competition, that 15 girls would be there vying for just 7 slots, that would really up the game. I already see a lot of jumping talent already. It's mostly training them to land them every time. That's not going to happen if there isn't something to lose. If you had to go to three qualifying competitions and score high and then this competition and basically win, that I feel would push girls to develop more competitive skills.

4. Send ladies to more difficult international competitions.

Last year, I thought it was a big step forward to send high level juniors to international comps. However, I think they were all easy comps. It's good to get their feet wet, but they needed more. They needed to see that they aren't really competitive with other ladies internationally. We need to send girls to competitions where we know there will be Russians, Japanese, and Koreans competing. US girls aren't the best, but they are better than most of the world. Sending them to some competitions is the same as giving them a participation trophy in a JGP event. The have to be challenged and want to rise to the occasion.

I did a search and found that they are monitoring girls from lower levels early. They send in regular reports and give suggestions. But you can't micromanage a girl into becoming a good competitor. Being a good competitor comes from learning how to compete. Knowing that there are ladies around you that are just as good if not better and having the mind set not only not let that phase you but also the burning desire to do you best to beat them anyway. And then the mental coolness to nail those programs in spite of the nerves, pressure, and intensity of competition.

I think what made Nathan such a good competitor is because as a junior he didn't have a consistent 3A or Quads, so he needed to work on his components and consistency with the elements that he did have. It's what are ladies have to learn as children if they ever want to win as adults.


Sorry for being so long winded. Yikes...

Beautiful post. I agree with most of your points about selection of competitors for a more focused field of talent, but I also don't think the US should take the route of Russia that makes cut-offs for the girls based on their weight/height, etc. I have had experience with coaches and skating in both countries (more in the US than Russia naturally) but in general I think despite not winning consistently in international events, most US girls actually look like they are enjoying skating and are not suffering from major psychological problems (Gracie being the exception, but that was almost inevitable given how much pressure was put on her). In Russia, because of this tight selection pool, girls face this kind of pressure starting at a level equivalent to perhaps pre-Juvenile in the US. I have witnessed several times girls being yelled at by their coach because they wanted to eat some food between practices, and heard parents discussing how extremely cut-throat the competition is even in these "low" levels. I think we need somewhat of a balance between these two different systems. If anything, USFSA should just invest a little more money into training up-and-coming championships rather than sponsoring the old-timers, and *really* try to develop the talent in the Junior field.

And by the way, I think money is definitely an issue. When I started skating, I was landing axels and a double after 1.5 years of skating (and skating only twice or three times a week), and despite my talent there was no way my parents could afford the price of the private lessons unless we decided skating was to become my profession. I'm sure this is true for many young skaters here.

 

[frida80]

Well, I was a good student and when I see your name on a post, I get excited because I know how much you appreciate good skating.

:

I do appreciate good skating. I got pulled in a long time ago and am too deep to get out.

I can tell you what happened with ballet. Competition. In the past you sent girls to ballet and tap because there wasn’t anything else. Now there’s soccer, art, culinary, lots of stuff to keep girls occupied. Also, many girls get tired of ballet and move to jazz and contemporary because it’s more fun. My niece is five and wants to ballerina so badly. I’ll send her to classses, but I’m not holding out hope that she’s sticks with it for long haul. Though I worry my love of skating will result in her wanting to skate and me shelling out a fortune in skates, leggings, outfits and coaches,with waking up at 4:30 in the morning for coaching.... ballet it is!

Back to skating. I don’t think it’s a competition for other things than skating. Even in my neck of the woods there are plenty of little girls filling up these learn to skate classes. It’s just that the skaters we have are marshmallows in comparison to the rest of the world. We need to push out tougher competitors.

Instead of hyping one talented skater, USFS should push all their skaters to win competitions. It takes the pressure off the talented ones if they think they’re not alone as must push themselves to better than their compatriots. They could focus on skating their best and trying to beat her rather than trying to carry the country on their shoulders. I also think Ashley is such a good competitor because she was basically ignored by USFS and had to prove herself time and time again.

 

[moriel]

I actually think that allowing juniors at Senior Nationals as it is done in Russia would be a good thing. On one hand, it allows junior ladies to see "real" competition, and compare themselves with international level senior skaters. On the other hand, the senior skaters may get some pressure from teenage jumping beams

Also, i feel that USA hold back their juniors, as they have their international outings very late. I mean, look at the russians doing JGP - they are all like 13 years old. There are a few benefits, but the most important, i think, is that girls build competitive mindset from early age - they need to be really good to get a JGP assignment, and have to also compete there with the best international skaters (who are stronger than local skaters). Imho, its important to start as early as possible, because younger kids are more flexible and learn easier those things.

Imho, its worth focusing on technical aspects. To medal, a girl needs to rotate and land all her triples, preferable with difficult entry and arm variation, and most of them in the second half of the program, the program packed with transitions. While one can win without artistry, a girl CANNOT win without landing all the jumps with all the goe bulletpoints. Imho the americans tend to focus too much on the PCs aspects of skating (indeed, the american juniors tend to have good skating skills and so on, but then it doesnt matter because they cannot jump), and not on technical aspects.

Last but not least, USA tend to be overly politically correct regarding weight and so on. You folks should totally check some documentaries on russian artistic gymnastics and consider applying that to figure skaters.


Russia, overall, has a few advantages over USA:
1. good coaching happens only in Moscow and St Petersburg, so you have all promising skaters gathered at the same place.
2. base level skating is very affordable - in fact, for example in siberia, ice skating is one of the most affordable winter sports, so most kids try it at some point (the winter is long, so what they usually do is to have rinks that are used as rinks in winter, and as soccer/whatever fields at summer, all you need is to splash some water and skate).

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think Dave Lease of the Skating Lesson said it best at this point whoever finishes top 3 at Nationals should go because nobody is looking good at this point in the season and their are no real contenders for the podium at the Olympics.

I agree. The USFSA can pretty much get the team it wants if the favorites skate reasonably well, since results can be somewhat manipulated with PCS, GOE, and edge/rotation calls.

 

[frida80]

Beautiful post. I agree with most of your points about selection of competitors for a more focused field of talent, but I also don't think the US should take the route of Russia that makes cut-offs for the girls based on their weight/height, etc. I have had experience with coaches and skating in both countries (more in the US than Russia naturally) but in general I think despite not winning consistently in international events, most US girls actually look like they are enjoying skating and are not suffering from major psychological problems (Gracie being the exception, but that was almost inevitable given how much pressure was put on her). In Russia, because of this tight selection pool, girls face this kind of pressure starting at a level equivalent to perhaps pre-Juvenile in the US. I have witnessed several times girls being yelled at by their coach because they wanted to eat some food between practices, and heard parents discussing how extremely cut-throat the competition is even in these "low" levels. I think we need somewhat of a balance between these two different systems. If anything, USFSA should just invest a little more money into training up-and-coming championships rather than sponsoring the old-timers, and *really* try to develop the talent in the Junior field.

And by the way, I think money is definitely an issue. When I started skating, I was landing axels and a double after 1.5 years of skating (and skating only twice or three times a week), and despite my talent there was no way my parents could afford the price of the private lessons unless we decided skating was to become my profession. I'm sure this is true for many young skaters here.

NOthing could make me sicker than seeing another Gracie situation. It was completely avoidable, and I don't think I'll stop being mad at USFS for helping to cause this situation. While I know there were underlying problems, expecting one girl to revive USFS was completely unrealistic. When Gracie spoke about letting down her country, I realized exactly how much the Feds were hurting her with their pressure and hype. If she had be able to freely compete without all that and pressure she may have been a very different skater and her path could have been very different.

I suggested changes that would increase competition and improve quality of skating. I won't ask for huge drastic changes that would exacerbate an already huge problem. USFS has to start rooting out these practices and punishing coaches that have these weight requirements immediately.

 

[mrrice]

NOthing could make me sicker than seeing another Gracie situation. It was completely avoidable, and I don't think I'll stop being mad at USFS for helping to cause this situation. While I know there were underlying problems, expecting one girl to revive USFS was completely unrealistic. When Gracie spoke about letting down her country, I realized exactly how much the Feds were hurting her with their pressure and hype. If she had be able to freely compete without all that and pressure she may have been a very different skater and her path could have been very different.

I suggest changes that would increase competition and improve quality of skating. I won't ask for huge drastic changes that would exacerbate an already huge problem. USFS has to start rooting out these practices and punishing coaches that have these weight requirements immediately.

This is why having a great coach is so very important. As ambitious as my ballet teacher was, she was also VERY protective of her dancers. When I watch that show "Dance Moms" I want to scream at the teacher's who let those young dancers see the adults behaving so shamefully. There's a fine line between "Preparing" a student and "Jading" them. We ran into some students who were downright rude to their parents and their teachers. That's something my teacher would never have stood for. We were shielded from pressure and that's something I am very thankful for to this day. I think that's why I still love dance and skating as they were both a very positive influence in my life.

 

[frida80]

This is why having a great coach is so very important. As ambitious as my ballet teacher was, she was also VERY protective of her dancers. When I watch that show "Dance Moms" I want to scream at the teacher's who let those young dancers see those adults behaving so shamefully. There's a fine line between "Preparing" a student and "Jading" them. We ran into some students who were downright rude to their parents and their teachers. That's something my teacher would never have stood for. We were shielded from pressure and that's something I am very thankful for to this day. I think that's why I still love dance and skating as they were both a very positive influence in my life.

I don’t watch dance moms because it looks ridiculous. Could you explain what you mean by how the adults behaving?

 

[mrrice]

I don’t watch dance moms because it looks ridiculous. Could you explain what you mean by how the adults behaving?

I certainly can. Here are a few clips from the show. I don't expect all adults to get along however, the fact that these parents can't wait until they've left the Venue is what I find disgusting. This is why I don't watch this show because it "normalizes" this behavior and it's NOT normal. If one of my students had a parent who behaved this way, I'd apologize to the student and drop them both from my program. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scFtrlJkabU

 

[frida80]

I certainly can. Here are a few clips from the show. I don't expect all adults to get along however, the fact that these parents can't wait until they've left the Venue is what I find disgusting. This is why I don't watch this show because it "normalizes" this behavior and it's NOT normal. If my student had a parent who behaved this way, I'd apologize to the student and drop them both from my program. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scFtrlJkabU

I couldnt make it two minutes. No. That just... no.

 

[Lenny318]

It really breaks my heart that one week The Skating Lesson is saying Mirai is their early pick for national champ this year and then this week they say the US doesn't even need that third spot and Michelle might as well come and take it. I get what their reasons are (lack of emoting/feeling the music, still making jump errors even in that focused zone, criticism of program music choice, 9th place at a GP being on her resume, etc) but wow that was a total 180 almost.

 

[frida80]

It really breaks my heart that one week The Skating Lesson is saying Mirai is their early pick for national champ this year and then this week they say the US doesn't even need that third spot and Michelle might as well come and take it. I get what their reasons are (lack of emoting/feeling the music, still making jump errors even in that focused zone, criticism of program music choice, 9th place at a GP being on her resume, etc) but wow that was a total 180 almost.

Don’t worry about them. Just like on this forum, they are prone to make knee jerk reactions to on skate and forget everything else before it. I remember after JW they were complaining about the US sending Bradie to JW and not someone that had potential like Tessa. They went on to imply how much better she was than the subpar ladies on the 2016 JGP. Strangely they didn’t realize that Tessa WAS on the JGP and was pretty bad as well. Ignore them.

If your going to be a Mirai fan you have to roll with the cycles. One competition you’ll have people singing her praises. The next they’ll assail her. It’s the same with nearly every US lady. Next week I’m fully prepared for everyone to turn on both Karen and Ashley if they under perform. Those are the breaks.

 

[chuckm]

Mirai next skates at NHK, and it isn't going to get any easier. Kostner, Medvedeva and Bell will be there again. Miyahara, Hongo and Shiraiwa are the home ice defenders, and Tsurskaya makes her senior debut.

Mirai hasn't won a GP medal since COR 2013, and a medal at NHK would surely help her resume. But it is far from assured.

As for Karen and Ashley at Skate Canada, it is Skate Canada after all, and they won't get any more breaks than Bell and Nagasu got at CoR.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Nagasu did better than her score would suggest. She shouldn't have received the < call on her 3Axel in the SP, her 3Flip+3Toe was too harshly called as <<, and the 2Axel+3Toe could have been given no call. She still would have only placed 7th, but let's not forget she is attempting the most difficult jump layout in the world right now for a female. Hopefully the SP falls only happened because she was excited about landing a CLEAN 3Axel in this important competition and lost some focus. If she skates better at NHK, then she's still on track.

 

[Sugarpova]

It really breaks my heart that one week The Skating Lesson is saying Mirai is their early pick for national champ this year and then this week they say the US doesn't even need that third spot and Michelle might as well come and take it. I get what their reasons are (lack of emoting/feeling the music, still making jump errors even in that focused zone, criticism of program music choice, 9th place at a GP being on her resume, etc) but wow that was a total 180 almost.

dont bother with this blog really

no matter the result she gets huge respect from me for challenging herself! it will pay off!

 

[quadrupleaxel15]

I actually think that allowing juniors at Senior Nationals as it is done in Russia would be a good thing. On one hand, it allows junior ladies to see "real" competition, and compare themselves with international level senior skaters. On the other hand, the senior skaters may get some pressure from teenage jumping beams

Also, i feel that USA hold back their juniors, as they have their international outings very late. I mean, look at the russians doing JGP - they are all like 13 years old. There are a few benefits, but the most important, i think, is that girls build competitive mindset from early age - they need to be really good to get a JGP assignment, and have to also compete there with the best international skaters (who are stronger than local skaters). Imho, its important to start as early as possible, because younger kids are more flexible and learn easier those things.

You are absolutely right. Almost every one of us were rooting for Alina to come of age and compete with/beat Evgenia immediately after she had placed 2nd at the Russian Nationals. It was only one competition but it had a big impact on her internatonal reputation.

It is also a great advantage to see how your junior champions will compare with others quite early on. Japan had do put three of their best skaters in the same GP just to be able to see this before their Nationals.